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 Gold investment corner v4, Will gold price achieve USD2000 by 2012?

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loongchai
post Feb 11 2012, 10:50 PM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Feb 9 2012, 08:43 PM)
If you want physical gold, i suggest UOB or Maybank for the gold coins.
They are similar in price to gold bars.
As for gold bars, some ppl here may have better suggestions.
i dont like bars as i cannot be sure like you mentioned, the purity of the product
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but UOB charges double the spot price for physical gold? so why buy physical from banks?
http://www1.uob.com.my/jsp/finance/fin_gold.jsp?func=gold
loongchai
post Feb 12 2012, 03:31 PM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Feb 12 2012, 02:54 PM)
How do you calculate double the spot price for gold matey?  biggrin.gif
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how about this?
1 GM
PAMP GOLD
bank sell (W Msia) 328
bank sell (E Msia) 329
bank buy 195

what is the difference of PAMP and nuggets? I thought the retail price is RM205 per gram now? please enlighten me
loongchai
post Feb 12 2012, 03:45 PM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Feb 12 2012, 03:34 PM)
i see. i never look at 1 gram gold.........  biggrin.gif

The 1 oz looks alrite!  thumbup.gif
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i guess if you purchase in multiple of grams, the price would be much higher. but if you purchase in oz, it will be cheaper
loongchai
post Feb 28 2012, 05:52 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Feb 28 2012, 03:28 PM)
We are in fiat system since first day we are born.
Whether one own gold, hard asset, stocks, all just a parcel of fiat system.

Gold doesn't have a value without money, at current system.
Gold has a value become the existence of money.
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You can't equate gold or properties (hard assets) with fiat money. Money is just a denomination of value, it has no intrinsic value. If one day, ringgit drops by 90% of its value, would you still be able to buy a RM500k house at the same price?

By the way, fiat system was only introduced by the United States since 1971. I am sure some of the forumers here were born before that.

QUOTE
August of 1971 President Nixon ended the international gold standard and for the first time no currency in the world had a gold backing.



Added on February 28, 2012, 5:53 pm
QUOTE(mois @ Feb 28 2012, 04:36 PM)
Gold is limited. How can the gold supply the whole world? Think about it.

Unlimited money is good. So that you can ear more and more. But gold? What if gold is finish? Are you going to dig gold as your career?
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Unlimited money is good? Ever thought of the negative effects of inflation?

This post has been edited by loongchai: Feb 28 2012, 05:53 PM
loongchai
post Feb 29 2012, 12:19 AM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Feb 28 2012, 09:30 PM)
USD just removed gold backed policy during 70's.
It has nothing to do with fiat.
And none of other currency being gold backed before, only USD did.
Gold backed just means, people can exchange the USD to equivalent of gold amount.
Which indirectly means, you limit the currency that can be printed only by the amount of gold you have. Nothing to do with fiat system, it is more like self control mechanism and instill confidence on your money.

Fiat system already exist before the gold backed removing.

Money has no intrinsic value, so does properties, and gold.
Any value we given, like
RM 1 is RM1,
1 gram of gold is Rm175,
1 house worth RM500k

is given and perception by human kind in the fiat system.

Rm1 is just a paper printed RM1 that we have confidence people willing to exchange goods with us.
Gold is value, because people perceive it has a value by human kind due to scarcity of the metal. If not, it is an AU yellow metal and good conductor metal.
Properties, is cement, rock, sand that make a space for human to live in.

Whatever value a gold, a property, a paper money, is given by us. Itself has no value, until everyone agree so.

Just like 2000, people agreed gold not worth much, only USD300, so gold value at USD 300 and can exchange goods equivalent to USD300.

Until one day, gold is constantly value like 1kg will forever let one to exchange a property or 100 tons of rice, or something like that, then may be it has some intrinsic value. But we know, it never happened before.


Added on February 28, 2012, 9:38 pmYou may not old enough to know gold lose its value in the loss decades of gold from 1980 to 2002.
So there is no such thing of intrinsic value, the value changed due to people perception all the time.

Yes, one may not lose entirely like fiat money (if defaulted or devalue) with gold. But gold can lose its value as well. Last time you can buy a bowl of mee with 0.01 g, but now you cannot buy the same bowl of mee with 0.01g now. So gold lose the value until now, (at least until now, after 25 years or so). In the future, it may gain you, I don't know, but this is a reality and facts, that whatever value is constant changing due to people perception.
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QUOTE
Definition of 'Fiat Money'
Currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, despite the fact that it has no intrinsic value and is not backed by reserves. Historically, most currencies were based on physical commodities such as gold or silver, but fiat money is based solely on faith.

Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fiatmo...p#ixzz1nh3mSQVL


QUOTE
Investopedia explains 'Fiat Money'
Most of the world's paper money is fiat money. Because fiat money is not linked to physical reserves, it risks becoming worthless due to hyperinflation. If people lose faith in a nation's paper currency, the money will no longer hold any value.

Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fiatmo...p#ixzz1nh3sQUkv


Fiat currency is directly related to the removal of the gold standard. If property or tangible assets does not have intrinsic value, what has?
loongchai
post Feb 29 2012, 12:37 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Feb 29 2012, 11:26 AM)
Nothing.
Value is always given by mankind and mass perception.

The removal of gold standard only let the Fiat system more freely.
It is not the start of Fiat system. It exist way before.
Just last time, economy is rather smaller, and has abundant of gold to used by US to back the currency.
But soon after WWII ended, economy expand rapidly, and way exceed gold production and available gold, gold backed become non-viable mechanism only. 

And only USD has gold backed, none of other currency has gold backed before.
The gold backed only about USD, not related to GBP, RM, or the rest, so they are not Fiat

Just like GoldChan said, resources like oil and water is more valuable than gold. Gold is little use Au metal apart of its super conductivity which is rather niche market and application.
Gold is just medium of exchange. Itself only value when we perceive it is value.
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I spotted contradictions all over your post. First you claim Nothing has intrinsic value, then you go on and claim resources like oil and water is more valuable than gold. You said the Fiat system exist way before the removal of the gold standard, then you go on and say GBP and RM are not Fiat currency. So please enlighten me what exactly is your definition of Fiat currency? rclxub.gif

The scarcity of gold is no excuse to remove the gold standard. If anything, currency should be backed by a reserve (i.e. gold) to prevent over printing. If you don't have reserves, don't go printing (electronic) money out of thin air!

Just look at the chart below, inflation is almost non-existence prior to the 1970s (i.e. removal of gold standard):

user posted image
loongchai
post Mar 1 2012, 12:12 AM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Feb 29 2012, 02:38 PM)
There is no contradiction.

GBP, RM, or whatever currency in the world never being backed by gold.
Since when I said they are not fiat currency?  rclxub.gif
"The gold backed only about USD, not related to GBP, RM, or the rest, so they are not Fiat"

QUOTE
Only USD was gold backed, and you claimed fiat currency only exist after the removing of USD gold backed. This is not true at all.
Fiat currency already exist way before USD gold backed.

Oil and water is more valuable, means they are useful. Gold is not.

Valuable /= intrinsic value. My definition of intrinsic value means they have a fixed value.

I claimed or my definition of no intrinsic value, means they do not store a fixed value. Value is constantly changing all the time, it can be more value, it can become less value.
Gold today value at RM175, 1980's time was RM30, future may be RM300.
So after lecturing to your kids that gold has intrinsic value,
Kids: what is the gold intrinsic value?
You : 1980's time, the answer is RM30, now RM175, future RM300 (the kid asked in 3 different time.
Kids : (Recall back the answer), you told me gold has an intrinsic value, how come you give me 3 answer?
You : ???
If you constantly denominate gold in terms for currency (RM), of course it will appreciate over time. In fact, its the side effect of over printing of money with no reserve requirement. Call this devaluation of currency, if you will (a.k.a. inflation). If we are still using gold standard now, the price of a gram of gold now would still be the same as the price of a gram of gold in the 1980s (RM30). Note that I have deliberately left out supply/demand

QUOTE
Fiat currency means you can print the money out of thin air, and define what is the value of it, aka print the note that write RM1, and become legal tender for RM1 equivalent of goods.

Even when USD being backed by gold time, they can print as their wish, as long as there is enough gold, which enable (if) someone want to exchange the USD to gold. Gold is just mechanism to self control on the creation of money.

Gold backed has a big flaw and cannot co-exist with modern banking system, as gold is scarce in the first place which hinder the economy growth, money growth. Just you bank cannot loan you money and charge you interest, as your "gold" is not digged out or enough yet to pay the interest. Money cannot become more due to gold scarcity.
Yes, it will prevent inflation to happen in the process.

Inflation spike because of money growth, yes removing gold backed give freedom to print more money, no doubt it somehow contribute to inflation. But from 1970's onwards, we have economy booming around the world, new tech, new stuff created. For the last 20-30 years, the world economy has changed so much, size of economy become larger, the amount of money circulating become more.

I also wish inflation being tamed.
Fiat currency if self controlled properly is the key. Gold backed just instill the self controlled mechanism. But gold backed has major flaw as it can hinder growth of economy, as you need to dig more gold before someone has extra money.
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I agree
loongchai
post Mar 1 2012, 12:27 AM

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QUOTE(FrancescoTop8 @ Mar 1 2012, 12:22 AM)
Wise grandfather : Don`t messed up your kid, son. Take this ; "Iran 'to accept payment in gold for oil'"  brows.gif
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17203132
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Then why is the price of gold dropping like crazy as we chat here? sad.gif
loongchai
post Mar 1 2012, 11:22 PM

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QUOTE(jonuslee @ Mar 1 2012, 11:18 PM)
Hi guys. I am new to Gold Investment. The Gold price show in the bank let say Selling Price is RM169/gm and buying price is RM162/g, does it mean that we purchase the gold from bank at RM169/gm and sell to bank at RM162/gm ??Sorry about noob question as i am confuse about those selling price and buying price stated in the bank homepage. Any Sifu please help to advise. Million of thanks to you all.
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Yes, absolutely right and it means the spread is RM169-162 = RM7

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