hi,

i have read several articles on oil suitability on engines and im quite confused with the rigidness of the classification.
my kelisa is currently using 5w30 but im planning to try 5w20 for lesser friction, more power and better FC

i know technically saying 5w20 will expose the engine to faster wear but at what rate? what if i use race-grade 5w20 on daily rev engine? sounds to me it would protects better than low grade 5w30

my thoughts were perodua recommends 10w30 to accomodate users with standard quality perodua engine oil to safeguard their reputation on reliability and also legal issues, but if i have a much higher budget, logically race quality 5w20 oil should not breakdown at 1.0 engine heat right?

i mean myvi 1.3 engine is recommended to use 10w30, my brother honda 1.4 is also recommended to use 10w30 too and both these engines produce a lot more heat than mine under the same weather condition. i read in outside forums, cars like miata use 5w20 as recommended by mazda

so i think 1.0 engine and below like 660 and 850 kancil can use 5w20

thoughts please?

This post has been edited by upontheriversky: Oct 16 2011, 10:00 PM

no im just curious and trying to justify my decision on using 5w20, so i need supporting reasons ive read some oil threads here but they tend to get personal in the end, so i opened this discussion

how faster will it evaporates?
anyone knows the average engine temp of kcar size? if i know this then can probly refer to the oil spec

ive got 1 ok now, thanks

ive done some research to challenge the conventional thoughts on engine oil recommendation:

this is the used oil analysis done by owner of an acura comparing his mobil 1 5w30 to amsoil 5w20


although does not differ much but we can see here that amsoil syn 5w20 seems to protect better judging by lower amount of iron, aluminium, chromium (piston ring) and copper (bearing) considering it is a lower viscous oil.

surprisingly, from the chart, mobil 1 has much more molybdenum than amsoil but protection is about the same

this is another comparison i found on a forum, however it is done on different engines:


same pattern here, amsoil 5w20 offer better if not the same protection over mobil 1 5w30. even though this comparison was done on different engines, we can still conclude that it is possible to safely use lower viscous oil provided that it is a high quality one.

and most importantly, most of the cars where oil is being used and tested produce lot more heat than my car and it seems that it does not harm their engine since the wear level is acceptable. i even read from a forum that a 4.0L V6 is using 5w30 on daily ride and no one seems to object:)

i have also extracted the flash point of several quality 5w20 oil that i prefer and all of them have more than 200 degree celcius flash point, i dont think a daily stock/lightly modded car especially like mine can even go higher than 150 celcius even on hot days

so from these facts, i think if the engine does not have leaks, it is safe to use lower viscous oil than manufacturer recommendation and this only applies strictly on high quality oil.

lesser friction, more power, same or better mileage while still providing sufficient protection to engine

This post has been edited by upontheriversky: Oct 17 2011, 10:30 PM

i agree with the rev range comparison between small and large engine but we cant be sure the heat produced by 3 cylinder 1L at 5k rpm can even match the heat from a 4L having twice the no of cylinders revved to 3k rpm and my gut is telling me that it will be lower in 1L

critically thinking, i think the grade of oil we can use depends more on driving habit and engine normal rev range. all i have to do is to learn how to read and compare different oil specs and see if it protects the engine at my rev range heat, if it does, get the thinnest one for best lubrication. if want to use thinner oil, go with bigger budget, its a calculated risk

i might fork out some money for UOA just to be sure, this result can mean a big change on the rigid classification when recommending oil to others, oil option can be made more flexible by having smarter consumers

thanks for the supporting comment

u have just boosted up my confidence buddy! thanks


no right answer until we try it on and do UOA on the oil. my guess is ok, like mixing used cooking oil and fresh one, both have different viscosity but when heated they mix and come to one final viscosity but then the oil we have in the car now will not have same characteristics of the original spec on neither of the bottles

2 5w30 and 1 5w20, chances are the oil in general would behave like a very light 5w30 but it could be more complex hehe

This post has been edited by upontheriversky: Oct 18 2011, 11:04 PM

low oil pressure is a concern and there is no way i know for sure that its gonna be too low so i referred to sample of uoa reports, judging by what ive seen and ones posted here it should not be a problem.

ive poured in torco 5w20, the viscosity index, hths and tbn number on it is convincing so the oil should be stable. only need to test it and see, its a calculated risk

people told me not to think too much and be dare to try but sometimes they tend to do the same by raising up concerns..thats ironic and confusing :-)

This post has been edited by upontheriversky: Oct 20 2011, 11:22 AM

oh torco is easily found here, only way i know how to get redline oil is thru mail order from jb. ive poured in engine flush before i plan to use redline so cant afford to wait

i would like to try redline mtl gear oil though. ive seen one of the uoa, mtl was used in turbocharged engine plus several racing use and it was drained at more than 20k yet the result looks good

This post has been edited by upontheriversky: Oct 20 2011, 11:33 AM

just found out something useful about oil pressure vs. flow. apparently good lubrication can be dependant mainly on oil flow, not on the pressure.

lower oil pressure gives more rapid flow rate which is better at minimizing wear especially at high engine speed

further info is here:
http://lubricants.s5.com/oil_pressure.htm

huh..?

oh ok now i understand yes, it is true


anyway i think when choosing and comparing oil, best for reliability and performance would be oil that has all these common features:

-lowest v@100 and v@40 for minimum friction and wear during startup and in driving, giving best FC and engine performance. Pressure is lowered but the trade off is higher oil flow gain, fast flowing oil is what keeps 2 metals apart, pressure keeps the oil being pumped up against gravity easier for the cams, i think
-highest viscosity index for oil film thickness stability across different temp for bearings and cam, this contributes to tappet noise reduction too
-highest TBN number for fuel dilution resistance to reduce acid build up rate in oil giving a longer drain interval, giving less maintenance to worry about
-lowest NOACK volatility for minimum oil weight reduction from evaporation, so oil will have higher resistance to thickening throughout usage, also for long drain interval thus less maintenance
-highest HTHS for minimum oil breakdown from shearing at high temp condition such as 3 hours traffic jam during bersih or long haul high speed highway cruising

i dont think have to worry about cam and bearing wear from oil being too thin if the viscosity is really low but having a really high VI, some amsoil and redline has these combo.

if like to cut slack on oil change interval, then pay attention to highest TBN and lowest NOACK oil, amsoil has these combo.

if always change oil at 5-6k interval no matter what, can afford to get low TBN and NOACK and trade it off for lowest viscosity and high VI for best FC and performance. redline is ester based, it is cleaner on the engine than pao based while having high VI and low v100 so its good for FC and performance, although its not good at fuel dilution so have to change more often.

i concluded all the above by comparing among synthetics only regardless of the pricing, so not sure for semi or mineral.

and also on the side note, some racing oils are not advisable to use on the street or is "not street legal" because of U.S tight emission regulation, not because it has less or no protective agent that it is not safe to use on street engine, the excessive amount of protective agent in racing oils contribute to poisonous emission. But since we have no emission test in malaysia, we can use "not street legal" racing oil

correct me if im wrong

This post has been edited by upontheriversky: Oct 23 2011, 07:02 PM

yea just found out that too, apparently there are less or no detergent like calcium, boron and magnesium

just an update to the trial, clocking 3k now with no oil loss yet. blotter spot test on oil showed good result but got smell of gasoline a bit indicated fuel dilution

will cut open filter after oil change soon to see if any visible metal present.

probably at 7-8k. torco has low tbn number so the oil gets acidic quicker as compared to amsoil and redline, and it doesn have much detergent packed in so i guess thats why its popular in racing use but not for longer term purposes, same goes for redline but it lasts longer than torco for sure

yes i think that would be more practical, use cheaper oil and change it more often before it starts to oxidize and get acidic, leaving residues and sludge

also i think it wont be much good if using good oil that sustains longer but the normal filter still built to last way shorter

what i do is i just put a mindset and get used to "rm40 per liter oil is standard", at least for now haha

that is exactly my point of why oem recommends 10w30, it is cheaper and widely available to accomodate all range of users. i bet they would recommend 0w30 or 5w30 if everyone can get it off the petrol stations. i think prius is using 0w20 and its not a small engine, toyota recommended it to score Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) rating if im not mistaken since fuel economy is its main selling point

just pour in sr-1 5w20, im using it now for more than 3k with no oil loss and i think its going to stay that way. power and smoothness gain is highly noticeable compared to last royal purple 5w30

0w20 is in fact thinner than 5w20 if we closely compare the viscosities at 100 celcius. redline 0w20 - 8.2, redline 5w20 - 9.1, redline 10w30 - 10.7, redline 10w40 - 14.6, torco sr1 HPS 5w20 - 7.37 (thinnest i found so far)

from these figures, u can see the big difference between 10w30 and 5w20 and all w30 oil to 10w40 oil

i suggest redline for max engine cleanliness and performance, torco for high revving and long haul drive, amsoil for longer term oil drain. ive studied the spec and compound of these 3 oils hence the conclusion, other brands yet to be known

best combo i personally suggest would be amsoil with torco mpz - longer term drain from amsoil with insanely lots of moly from torco mpz

This post has been edited by upontheriversky: Dec 15 2011, 02:26 AM

come to think back, engine oil is always a matter of preference no matter what others say, kudos for sticking to good quality oil

This post has been edited by upontheriversky: Dec 15 2011, 02:31 AM

it can be hard to compare same grade of oil from different brands coz all of them may have the same level of certification but they may perform in totally different manners

so for ease of comparison, the spec at the back of the oil is categorized the same for all oils such as viscosity at 40 and viscosity at 100. u will never see oil spec of viscosity at 200 or 65 degree to avoid confusion.

so here are some guides of what i think most crucial when comparing different brand of oils to see which is best suited for ur application:

1) viscosity at 40 and 100 - the lower the number, the thinner the oil, the better the lubrication. from here, we may sometimes see 0w30 can be much thinner than 10w30.

2) Viscosity index - oil ability to behave at rated viscosity at wide range of temperatures. Higher number means higher viscosity stability. important for high heat engine - turbos and high rev NA. lower number means, the viscosity will change a lot from what stated at the back of bottle at different oil temperature than 40 and 100 celcius so it is not good.

3) NOACK volatility - oil weight loss due to evaporation, the number is in percentage. the lower the better. important for turbos coz even branded oil may have high NOACK number which contributes to oil evaporation even in no-leak engines. As oil evaporates, the lighter weight will give up first, leaving the heavier oil so oil becomes thicker and less performance.

4) High temp/high shear viscosity - oil ability to sustain the mentioned condition, the higher the better. most important for turbos and racing engines.

5) Total Base Number - this is the most important feature for all average users like me to see whether the oil can actually be used for long time or not. this is the reserved alkalinity to resist fuel dilution of engine oil from combustion. Fuel dilution makes the oil acidic and therefore oxidized faster. The higher the better. Higher TBN also usually means the oil has lots of detergent which is good for engine cleanliness. Amsoil has the highest as far as i know. So there is no need for rigid classification of fully syn has to be changed at 10k, semi at 7k and so on, look at the TBN and do ur own comparison. Whatever close to 10 is good, higher is best and lower is so-so only. minimum would be 7-8 as dictated by SAE if im not mistaken

To sum up, 0w20 oil may be very thin but if the Viscosity Index and NOACK is really good, u wont experience as much oil loss or bad engine wear as compared to 10w30 having really bad NOACK and Viscosity Index. The specs are there, we just need to learn how to interpret so that we can all stop beating the bush when it comes to what oil is suitable for our application.

For enthusiast/speed chaser:
- pay attention to all specs mentioned above

For average daily drive and normal maintenance:
- pay particular attention to Total Base Number

If the brand of oil you are comparing does not provide any of the info above, it can simply means that the oil did not pass the test or the test result is not impressive that they hide it so people would still buy. We wont be able to say its bad until we see bad test numbers, so hide it and call it good stuff, people will still buy and call it good. Its all about sales in the end

for example, try see castrol oil spec whether they have half of the specs i mentioned above and see amsoil, redline and torco specs on the web, these branded oil have nothing to hide

This post has been edited by upontheriversky: Dec 22 2011, 02:18 AM

i 2nd ur opinion bro, nothing is worse than paying for a fake oil in our engine

but is fake oil as in using recycled oil still an issue these days here? i heard of it long time ago (fake mobil 1 and castrol) but rarely these days. what are the brands that are still being imitated?