- Invest MORE when the stock market is low.
- This means never invest all at once, so you don't have to care how low or high the market will go.
- A true investment is like saving bit by bit. Putting all your money on the table and wishing for good returns is more like betting and gambling.
- Set aside extra money to "bet" when market is down.

I did NOT follow above and now lost 20%. Was 40% lost 2 years ago. Is that good or bad as I gain 20% in 2 years?
Only benefit now is the free monthly magazine.

more tips...
- you can buy into PB funds by going to a Public Bank and just ask for a form. No "advisor" involved. Fill in form and pay at the cashier counter. (Both PB and Public funds same commision... but PB no need "advisor". So you only blame yourself if your investment turns sour. )

- my favourite fund is PB Asean fund... I got returns from it while lose money from other funds - especially those that have stocks in China region - ie. China Pacific Equity. Bought them at the wrong time and they cannot bounce back.

- switch and park your equity funds to bond funds when market is going downhill. Don't cash them out unless you want to exit from PM forever. This way you can switch back to equity fund when the market is already down. If you cash out and buy back, you will incur another 5%+ service charge/commision. This service charge is comparatively high and not easy for any fund to gain more than 5% in any one year. You only make real money ACCUMULATIVELY over several years; which also indirectly lower the commision over the years. Example, 5 years will reduce commission to about 1% while accumulative gains of about 6% over 5 years is about 30%.

- be very careful in taking money out of EPF. EPF returns is already quite good. If the fund is good, it only give you extra 1-4%; but if is bad, you can lose more. If the fund lose 1-2%, you already lose 6-7% when EPF interest is added. On top of that you already pay the commision, and so not tend to pull out within 1-2 years, so more accumulate losts!

This post has been edited by j.passing.by: Apr 21 2012, 05:50 PM

WHAT I HATE ABOUT UTC AND PM.

This is just my opinion, no intention to flame any unit trust consultant (UTC) in this forum.

PM likes to launch new funds when the market is HIGH. I think this is because it is easier to sell and introduce unit trust funds to the general public when market prospect is looking good.

When UTCs approach you in malls, and worse still at EPF buildings, trying to corner you to buy into new funds, enticing you with market growth and that the new launching fund has discount – BE AWARE and BE WARY.

Please check the market trend first before departing with your money. Check the market trend for at least one year. You cannot judge it by the past one or two weeks. The market can be up for the past one week or so, but it can be still volatile shooting up or more likely DOWN. It can be like +1 +1 +1 +2 +1 +0 +1 +2 for the past 8 business days, and suddenly -5 and -10 the next 2 days.

Unit trust funds invest in the stocks. They pool funds (your money) to invest over a long, long list of stocks, which you can only pick several stocks at a time if you buy stocks directly yourself. (I believe KLSE stock is relatively new, and I still yet to check it out...)

The UTCs do play a good role in educating the public on an option of saving their money in unit trusts. But most tend to leave out the importance of investing bit by bit (taking full advantage of dollar cost averaging). Even if they do talk on DCA, they would tend to pull in your savings all at once.

(Auntie/Uncle/LianLui/LianChai, how much you have in saving? Why not invest in this xxx fund launching now? Now got discount...)

I think the right approach should be:
1.How much can you spare to invest at the moment? Put this X amount aside.
2.Divide this X amount over a period of time – at least 6 months.
3.Buy into the fund each month till X amount is depleted.
4.In meantime when X amount is slowly reduced, put aside monthly savings (Y pool of savings) for further investment.
5.Continue monthly investment with Y pool of savings.
6.The monthly investment could be on a fixed day of the month, if you are lazy or too busy; or it can be at your discretion if you think you can do better in spotting which day the stock market would be at its lowest point in the month. (I think the former would be better than the latter, as analysing too much could paralyse you into no motion.)

(PS. As you know I gained some with PB ASEAN fund. I did not purchased it during the launching period, but after the launched date. It went down slightly a week after its launching date. Actually I did not pre-planned my actions. Was lucky. I was feeling sad in missing the discount period; and then was glad I missed it. )

---

Added on April 23, 2012, 3:58 pmYou get to break even because the market BOUNCE back. Dollar Cost Averaging only lowers the break-even point.

About 12 months ago, some funds like Public Far East Dividend went up above 0.25 and then spiral down to about 0.21 now. Like you, I should have switch it to a bond fund then.

Well, lesson learned. Now waiting for it to bounce up again. It's okay as I can hold and wait as I have no urgent need of the invested money at the moment.

The bad thing is that it was transferred from EPF. It would still lose the cost of opportunity (EPF interests over the past 4 years) even if the fund price goes up from negative back to breakeven zero.

This post has been edited by j.passing.by: Apr 23 2012, 04:10 PM

Regarding poster serious1 question on monitoring funds performance and price.

As topic/thread is on Public Mutual and its fund, I'll answer by pointing you to its website. http://www.publicmutual.com.my/OurFunds/Fu...manceChart.aspx

I hope "monitoring" means looking at the performance trends and prices from time to time or after office hours.

If you mean to monitor it frequently to buy or sell on the spot, then this defeats the purpose of unit trusts. There is a cost in buying (service charge is usually 5.5% of your investment) and in switching (RM25 service charge.)

(And if you want to switch OUT after switching into a fund within 90 days, there’s a penalty charge – at least RM50 or 0.75% if I’m not mistaken.)

You buy (or switch) into a PM fund by 4.00 pm on a business day. After 4.00 pm, your buy/switch is effectively for the next day.

The fund price is calculated and known after the stock markets are closed. So there is no the spot buying as in stocks.

(You cannot order your UTC to buy/sell like you see in wah-lai-toi drama, a taiko ordering his stock broker to buy/sell over the phone! )

If the fund only invest in the local Malaysia stock market, its price is usually posted the same day later at night. If it involves foreign stocks, then its price could only be known the next day, or even the next, next day if that foreign market is closed for holiday.

Secondly on the fund prices. Actually the fund prices do NOT tell you anything meaningful. It does NOT tell you whether it is expensive or cheap. You cannot compare its price against another, and say this fund is a better buy because it is cheaper than the other.

DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE of thinking that a lower price fund is a better buy because you get more units from your X amount of money and less units from another fund with a higher price.

But you can try to analyse it by looking at its performance trend. The PM website allows you to show the tread line since it was launched and also within a specific time period. The later trend line is more helpful. For example, you can set it to 01/01/2012 till today’s date, and compare the percentage gained (or lost) of various funds.

-------------------

After saying all of the above “amateur rubbish”, I found that the funds mostly overlaps each other and there are some funds that cover regions i.e. China Pacific, Australia, Indonesia, South East Asia, Europe etc. And some on certain markets i.e. Consumer products, infrastructures, etc.

The thing is all of them seem to act in tandem. All goes up or all goes down at the same time. Europe market goes down; Asia market tends to follow suit, etc, etc.

So how to select and pick the better fund to invest?

As all the equity funds tend to move the same direction, I think it is more crucial to know when to buy or not to buy. As for local funds, the KLSE index hits all time high at around 1600 points and still hovering at around 1590 points.

I cannot suggest or recommend which fund to select, just above points to share. From personal experience, the local market has ‘rubber’ and can bounce up readily after it plunged down.

Yes, wongmunkeong, I lost money too in the “infamous PCSF”. I think PM got tapau by foreign and China investing houses by venturing too far abroad. It could be nice of Tan Sri Public Bank if he can recognised their shortcomings and foolhardiness, and redeemed us loyal followers for venturing with them into the deep end.

Both are correct!

The Mutual Gold Qualifying Points (MGQP) will be 10,550 and 10,000 respectively.

In the 1st example, extra cash is handed out if you want to have the exact 40,000 units when the unit price is at RM0.25.

Usually, it is the 2nd example, as you tend to write out a RM10,000 cheque.

Had done both...

You are making it more confusing. Your invested amount should be what you had paid - the total amount you had paid, including the service charge.

Hence, you should notice that you have an immediate 5.5% lost after buying into the fund.

=======================================

Beginners, please note that unit trusts are good for long term savings/investment. If you want to invest for only a year, please make sure you select a fund that can GUARANTEE you a return of 8% or more, as otherwise it is just as good as keeping your money in a Fixed Deposit (currently about 3%); or better still put it in EPF or some other safer & better funds like ASN if you're bumi.

=======================================

If making a spreadsheet on the figures, the columns would be:
A) fund name (and distribution date/year end date)
B) date purchase
C) account number
D) total amount paid (including service charge), which should be same as MGQP.
E) number of units (please update whenever there is any distribution).
F) unit price
G) Net asset value (NAV). E x F.
H) Lost/Gain. G - D
I) Percentage. H / D %
J) Percentage per Annum. I / (Today's date - B)/365

This post has been edited by j.passing.by: May 2 2012, 02:36 AM

Distribution for Bond funds is on annual basis. Equity funds are usually on "incidental" basis; meaning there is distribution when the fund is doing well. Dividend funds are usually on annual basis.

You can check out their Distribution Policy in their prospectus.

Technically, the net asset value of the fund is unchanged after a distribution.

If you reinvest the distribution back into extra units (instead of cashing out the value of the distribution), the total value of your fund is the same as before distribution since the unit price is now slightly lower although you now have more units.

But normally there is a slight minimal difference as you would then be checking and multiplying your total units against the closing price of the following day; and the closing price would depends on the fluctuation of the stock market on that day.

Yes, it is unexpected.

Public Far-East Telco & Infrastructure Fund's distribution policy is 'incidental'. Although it is in positive territory since its commencement since July 2008, it had declined more than 20% in the past year.

(Only those investors who had bought in during the dip around end Sept. 2011 would have profited.)

Though the net asset value of the fund remains unchanged after a distribution, there is tax on the distribution.

(BTW Unit splits have the same effect as a distribution.)

Understood.

"Technically, the net asset value of the fund is unchanged after a distribution."
It's suppose to read the net asset value of the fund 'you are holding'; as I was writing from the viewpoint of an investor, not the company.

The total net asset would, of course, be less after a distribution, after taking into account the pay outs and management fee and tax.

The important point is that as an investor, if you're waiting to sell, you don't need to time the transaction to be after a distribution; as the NAV is reflected in the unit price at all times. Selling a day before or after the fund's year-end date is the same - barring market activity the following day.

Can anyone explained why there is distribution in Public Far-East Telco & Infrastructure Fund as it was in decline the past 12 months? Is it making money to declare a distribution and hence pay tax?

Or is it money held in reserve from its profitable period over 2-3 years; which then makes "the NAV is reflected in the unit price at all times" invalid.

PB = Public Bank.
PM = Public Mutual. The mutual funds company that is under Public Bank. There are mutual funds operated by other banks too.

You need to approach a UTC (Unit Trust Consultant) if you are a new investor. The UTC will then explain, fill forms, etc.

There is a cooling off period for a first-timer.

Public Bank has it own funds too. The fund names begin with PB. They are sold through its banks, while the Public funds are sold through Public Mutual. Look into its website to find the locations of Public Mutual branches.

As a new investor or first-timer and if you're buying into a PB fund, go to a Public bank and ask to see a consultant/bank staff (I don't know their official title ) who will go through all the forms with you as a UTC would do in Public Mutual.

It would be handy if you have a current account and has a cheque book. Not sure how it is done using cash in Public Mutual branch (maybe you or UTC will need to pay at a counter and get an official receipt); but at Public Bank you pay at the cashier's counter.

(Edited to correct my english. )

This post has been edited by j.passing.by: May 9 2012, 04:22 PM

THOUGHTS OF A UNIT TRUST PASSIVE INVESTOR.

To catch a falling knife. This phrase is often used to describe when you buy more on a downward trend; thinking that the trend had reached bottom; when actually the trend has stalled a while before plunging down again.

For the past 2 weeks, I was scared to log into PM to see my account statement. As expected my foreign funds were down really bad. My local domestic funds, I had switched to bond funds 2 months ago, the timely were off a bit too early, but never mind as they are holding up.

Sigh... still waiting for the foreign funds to climb up; as I’m too wary to put good money chasing after bad money.

For the bond funds, I’m going to play by the rules and wait out the 90 days period to deny PM any penalty charge. Hope KLSE will stay down till mid June!

Good night, and sleep well.

There's no difference, both under Public Bank... but there 2 groups of sales persons... one based in Mutual branch (Public series), the other in public bank (PB series).

For new investor, you will need to approach a sales person in a public bank (as you are interested in one of the PB series) and fill in forms, mainly to acknowledge that you know what you are doing and cannot later say you got cheated.

Other than that initial registration, you can get the appropriate forms from mutual branch or bank, and go to the bank and pay the money yourself over the counter.

As mentioned in above post, how you do it later - online, in person at bank or with another agent, it does not matter much since the service charge is the same.

(One reason why I'm not putting any more money into PM, and looking for alternative funds. The service charge is too high to cover as we get older (& hopefully wiser) and "long term" becomes shorter and shorter; only the 0.25% for bonds funds is acceptable.)

You will get an account number for each fund.

If you want to use another agent for same fund, normally he will decline and suggest another fund... as any top up to that fund will be on that initial account number. If you insist to give the new agent business on the same fund, it can be done by asking the former agent to sign and release the account to the new agent. Pai-seh to the old agent... that's why normally another fund is suggested.

Now the fun begins when you do switching (transfer from one fund to another fund).
Say Fund A switch to Fund B. Also fund C switch to Fund B.

Fund B will have 2 separate account numbers if Fund A and Fund B are under different agents.

If you stick with PM for 1 or 2 decades, this multiple accounts in your statement of accounts scenario is very likely to happen...

PBGF is only open to EPF; meaning you cannot pay cash... only transfer from EPF is accepted.

This post has been edited by j.passing.by: May 30 2012, 07:10 PM

Simple, it is in their website (it can only be found if you know where to look).
Here's the link... click the 2nd "read more" under Funds Not Open for Investment.
http://www.publicmutual.com.my/OurProducts/FundPrices.aspx

==================

"Personally, if i was a customer (not self-service agent ),..."
LOL, I have the FMUTM card; but never use it and just let it expired.

First, don't panic.

2nd, be patient. You're not like catching a runaway train.

And stock market don't seems to be on a runway ready for takeoff yet. The KLSE (like its people, luv to do things late ) and is slow in following other stock markets.

And the other stock markets are falling or yet to fall until Greece until is booted out of Euro... my 2 sens...

3rd, PB has limited local funds that seems to be doing exceptionally well. You could take a look into PB Asean Dividend, my lucky fund that made me money.

Have same intention as yours - to cut down the service charge.
But bad timing - only got time to take action and take exam after sinking in a major bulk of my funds into PM
Then was reluctant to pay annual fees for nothing, so let it expire...

(If I'm going to put more money into PM, it's going to be bonds and the equity funds already bought is enough to strike a balance and to switch around... not much savings to gain in bonds 0.25% service charge. LOL)

Yah, spend money and time on the UTC thing, somemore went to Melaka to sit the exam because KL at that time were fully booked...


===========================

Thinking of bonds vs equity funds, here's a suggestion if you are starting in your career.

Don't be too conservative in your risk outlook when time is on your side. Buy equity funds and slowly move towards bonds when you're near or after retirement age.

The higher service charge in equity funds is easily covered over the 15 years or so in the long term.

I don't like "balance" funds, too conservative; and with online service, it is easy to switch from one fund to another and re-balance your portfolio of funds whenever you need to.

(my 2 sens for newbies... but please make your own judgement and don't readily believe everything I wrote! Click the "Show posts by this member only" on the upper right to see my previous posts in this tread.)

bb100,

Actually, I'm in the same situation as you in considering which funds best to select. I have 40% of my portfolio in bonds, and going to switch them to equity funds, maybe next week, in 2 weeks time, or maybe next month... most likely a percentage at a time over a period of 4-12 weeks... since the stock market is volatile at the moment, maybe I should wait till some dust settle first...

If you have a big amount, something like 10k, maybe spread them over 10 months... with 1k each month.

And if you don't mind loosing RM25 for the sake of convenience, you can use a tip (given by a a wise guy here) by buying into a bond fund, paying the service charge of 0.25%, and get access to the online service, and then do the switching (transfer out from the bond fund to an equity fund) online at your own timing...

In fund selections, I did some work by going through each of the fund, checking their past performance, and jotting their percentage gain or lost in a spreadsheet, then do a simple sorting and rank them accordingly. Their performance charts can be found in PM website, link http://www.publicmutual.com.my/application...formancenw.aspx

In the excel spreadsheet, I added remarks like which funds not open for investment, & open for EPF, and comparison to their benchmarks...

Below are the top 5 funds, accordingly to my own rankings, please noted they are dated, and I would do another evaluation (and taking into consideration other factors as well, such as benchmarks, future market prospect, own gut feelings & fancies, etc.) with updated data before taking any further action. Note also that I, personally, might not select them all, might only pick one or two, or pick outside of the top 5... noting that PB and PM together have like 92 funds!

PB series:
PB Singapore Advantage-30 Equity Fund
PB Asia Real Estate Income Fund
PB Asean Dividend Fund
PB China Pacific Equity Fund
PB Indonesia Balanced Fund

PM series:
Public Indonesia Select Fund
Public Far-East Property & Resorts Fund
Public Islamic Treasures Growth Fund
Public Islamic Dividend Fund
Public Islamic Select Enterprises Fund

Cheers.

For a start, maybe begin by reading some of my previous posts in this thread? You can filter them out by clicking "Show posts by this member only"... hope they would be some help.

Thanks, glad to know that my experience is of some help.

Bond funds are funds that concentrate on bonds. As like other unit trust funds, they hold a combination of various bonds issued by corporations and/or government. With the a wider coverage with a small percentage in any particular bonds, they are safer and less risky than buying a bond issued by a single corporation.

Aside from bond funds, there are money market funds too. They are even more safer than bonds, but paying less interest, as they are mutual fund that invests in short-term debt securities issued by the government.

All of these, I learned from wiki...

"A stock fund or equity fund is a fund that invests in equities more commonly known as stocks. Stock funds are contrasted with bond funds and money funds. Fund assets are typically mainly in stock, with some amount of cash, which is generally quite small, as opposed to bonds, notes, or other securities. This may be a mutual fund or exchange-traded fund. The objective of an equity fund is long-term growth through capital gains, although historically dividends have also been an important source of total return. Specific equity funds may focus on a certain sector of the market or may be geared toward a certain level of risk."

LOL.

One important different between bond and equity funds; their service charge.

PM has service charge of 0.25% for bonds, 5.5% for equities, payable upon purchase. (No entry or exit fees.)

When you first buy into a bond fund (0.25% service charge), the amount of units you will get is termed as low-load units. Loaded units are units you have already paid the 5.5% in service charge. (You will see these words when you do online...)

When you switch from low-load units (ie. only 0.25% paid) to an equity units, you will be deducted 5.5% for the service charge.

Oh, almost forgot... there is a switching fee of RM25 per switch. And when you switch in and out again within 90 days, the fee becomes RM50 or 0.75%, whichever is higher. This is to discourage people from playing around too much... like switching everyday!

It's a bit complicated to fully explained in detail... see the fees chart in this link http://fq-freedom.blogspot.com/2011/10/pub...tching-fee.html

The tactic (mentioned in previous post) of buying into low-load bond funds and later switching out to equity funds work because there is no switching fee in each switch. (Minimum units per switch allowable is 1000.) You only pay the 5.5% for the equity fund. Only extra payment is the 0.25% for the bond fund. (Correct me, if I'm wrong.)


===============================
A Tip.

As stated, PM has many funds, that the time and get to know more about them... some equities concentrate on certain segment of the stock market ie. consumer, infrastructure, real estate, etc., some on stocks/companies that have growth potential, some on companies that provide annual dividends, etc. etc.

Get to know them on your own by reading the markets they are in, read their prospectus, and review their performance charts.

I rather tinker with their performance charts showing the past performance for the past one year, and compare all the funds I'm selecting against a certain period of time like from 1st Jan till today, than just listening to advise from someone or a sales agent.

They could be showing you a chart based on past performance since the fund commenced. Using a chart that shows a fund's past 10-15 years performance, no matter how many hundreds of percentage gained since, is like not showing anything at all... because it is more important to know how the fund is performing presently, as we are buying now, not 10-15 years ago.

Worse still, some UTC (unit trust consultants) even recommend funds that performing well, but closed for new investment. Sigh... waste time only with them!.

===============================

BTW bond funds can out perform a "bad" equity fund. "Bad" meaning buying the fund at the wrong time, like it suddenly drop 10-30% in a couple of months after you buy it and take years to recover the 10-30%. Mind you, this is only covering the negative lost (if lucky), not yet the 5.5% service charge on the fund.

Am doubtful that asset allocation can be 20% ++ on one entity... you can check the asset allocation in the year-end reports.

From the year-end report Nov. 2011, no distribution, -19.49 returns.

http://www.publicmutual.com.my/OurProducts...EquityFund.aspx
http://www.publicmutual.com.my/LinkClick.a...3M%3d&tabid=250

Salute! for making the migration...

I only recently took notice of FSM, and had posted in a thread suggesting a pin or new thread on FSM... am seriously considering FSM in view of cheaper online charges...

PM keep ignoring their long-time supporters... only giving some free switching to gold members... should by now give SC discounts for topping up via online.


=======================

stock market this morning so scary... don't whether to chop lost or let it sink a bit more as it already sink so much already...

+1

Another salute and thumbs up for the migration.


no comprende...

true, ah? then why bother to withdraw from EPF to purchase PM funds and pay SC... better to keep in EPF since fund management is the same.

true, ah? then this is scary and time to withdraw all from EPF. LOL.

1. EPF is a compulsory retirement fund every private employee must enroll. You do not select option to invest or not. Among the better terms is that the contribution out of your salary is tax deductible, and contribution from your employer is tax free. Seriously, it is the best means of savings.

2. People is always talking about savings and being "financial free", and always looking for means to enhance their savings; but often neglect to take advantage of the fact that employers' contribution to EPF is tax free. Just another 2-3 percentage extra (and tax free) savings over entire working life would makes a lot of difference.

3. Don't believe everything you read in forums... there are parties with "prawns behind stones" and need to be cautious and verify the info before accepting the info as truth.

4. Believe in your own rational understanding, and don't be distracted by technical jargon. If you want to investigate whether a fund is giving better returns than EPF; you just look into the basic fact: how much is the returns; other factors like how it is done, operational costs, etc. is just noise and distraction.


=================

Another Tip. (sharing experience & lessons cont.)[U]

This tip is actually a continuation of time wastage with greenhorn UTCs from previous post... where I wrote that bond funds can outperform equity fund.

This is simple to deduce since equity funds can be volatile and has negative returns in a bad year. But I don't think many bond funds, though staple and less risky than equity funds, can always better EPF's returns.

Certainly not in PM anyway. The good PM bond funds that outperformed EPF is often than not over-subscribe and closed to new investment.

Hard-selling UTCs will try to convince and rope in new investors by using "bait and switch" tactic. They will try to entice you with this 'bait' and then once you are hooked, they will "switch" to another available bond fund (similar but not doing so well against EPF).

Again, be aware and be cautious of everything you read in forums, including what I wrote!

Cheers.

BTW here's the link to the year-end financial statements. http://www.publicmutual.com.my/OurProducts...tatementFS.aspx

In the financial statements, you can read the returns for the past 1-year, 3-years, and for older funds 5-years. For comparison, average EPF returns are 1-year 6%, 3-years 5.82%, 5-years 5.55%.

This post has been edited by j.passing.by: Jun 4 2012, 06:11 PM

mois,
Hope you don't mind, but I need to clarify that the above figures are taken from the performance chart, not the year-end financial report.

It shows the total percentage gained over the years if you had bought into the fund 3-years ago at 05-Jun-09 and hold it till today, and respectively for 5 years..

It will show an impressive gain or lost, if the 3-year or 5-year start point is in a trough or on a peak...

Anyway, it is still valid to support your argument that a longer period of time do not necessary translate into better returns... carry on.

1. To make it simpler, consider service charge as part of investment; add them and use only 1 figure.
2. Also add in the exit fee (if any) into the current unit price.
3. There, you already have 2 columns reduced...
4. One line for each purchase or fund. Put totals at the bottom of the appropriate columns, and average out the returns. Average them; adding up the return% is meaningless.

Below is what I wrote in a previous post...

If making a spreadsheet on the figures, the columns would be:
A) fund name (and distribution date/year end date)
B) date purchase
C) account number
D) total amount paid (including service charge).
E) number of units (update the number of units whenever there is any distribution or unit split).
F) current unit price
G) Net asset value (NAV). E x F.
H) Lost/Gain. G - D
I) Percentage. H / D %
J) Percentage per Annum. I / (Today's date - B)/365

------------------------

"2. Also add in the exit fee (if any) into the current unit price."
It should be clarified that it is not a 'simple addition', just plain english... meaning if the exit fee is 1% of the unit price, then multiply the unit price by 99%. Confuse? Maybe put in 2 more columns and work it out...





This post has been edited by j.passing.by: Jun 11 2012, 04:53 PM