We are known for our loyalty. The fact that we chose to adopt YNWA as our anthem proves that. It's why I always advocate learning about our past because it is what defines us. I know some people who turn the TV off when we are losing. To me, it's the same as leaving the stadium. F*ck that. You stay with the team till the end. When we were 2-0 down against Spurs, the fans were still singing. When we were 3-0 down against AC Milan, the fans stood firm. We never abandon our team and those that do, please don't come back. Thing is, there are plastic fans amongst us, like it or not. To anyone that is one, I'll be just as harsh regardless of your affiliation.

Loud and proud! (http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/it-s-official-lfc-fans-are-the-loudest)

It's like a broken record really. "Typical Liverpool fan", "typical manc". Seriously, when you make such statements don't you ever think back to how many people have used it before? WTF is a "typical Liverpool fan" anyway? Are you using the majority of Liverpool fans in Malaysia as an example? Well I tell you what, the majority aren't "typical Liverpool fans". The ones you see on TV week in, week out singing their hearts out even when the team is down are "typical Liverpool fans". Don't use a term you don't understand because most Malaysian fans are about the same, regardless of which club they support.

I could not disagree more. Years ago, Fergie wanted to exempt his team from the FA Cup (one of the oldest and prestigious club competitions in the world), to focus on Europe, which is deemed by world football fans as being the more 'valuable' tournament. I don't see how a club can consider themselves to be better or different from everyone else. When we won the treble in 2001, we played more games than anyone but did we complain? Saying the Europa League is a "pathetic competition" demeans our treble. So you agree it was the "Mickey Mouse" treble as coined by everyone else. I'm surprised to hear that any Liverpool fan can be ashamed of it. 10 years ago yesterday, we won the UEFA Cup after beating Alaves 5-4. A game that the great Johan Cruyff touted to be "boring" turned out to be one of the greatest finals of all time (topped of course by ourselves after Istanbul). Not many people talk about that game because it is overshadowed by the magnitude of Istanbul and rightly so, but to suggest that it mattered little is disrespectful.

Delusional? Hmm strong choice of words. I think we have hope in our hearts. Look at my signature. What does it say? I've always had faith. We may not win the league next year, I agree but it doesn't mean we stop trying. First you say that playing in the Europa League will lower our expectations then you go on to suggest that we need to manage our expectations. So which is it? Fact of the matter is we need to accept that we aren't today's giants. The Europa League is but a stepping stone on our road to recovery, and it is a step in the right direction.

I don't share your state of depression. I'm actually optimistic and I have faith in King Kenny. I have faith in the players. I have faith in the 12th man because as proven in Istanbul, we can make a difference. Whether it's a European Final or a friendly, we stand firmly behind the team and we don't let anyone tell us different.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 17 2011, 11:04 AM

16th May 2001 - UEFA CUP FINAL - Liverpool (5) - Alaves (4). Thanks for the memory lads.


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Is right. A major achievement for any team.

No choice? Were the games on the same day?

Not to digress but my point was that any competition should be taken seriously - in response to the Europa Cup being a "pathetic competition".

Ok I found an article (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story/_/id/871633/the-fa-cup%27s-greatest-controversies?cc=4716). Indeed, it was to boost England's chances of hosting the World Cup but regardless it is of my opinion that teams with a fairly sizable squad cope with hectic schedules or we'll find Premiership teams opting out of smaller competitions like the League Cup.



This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 17 2011, 04:35 PM

Ok fair play.

Yup someone's already answered. Don't remember every detail involving other clubs. Still, is there a rule against fielding a reserve side or a youth team? I'm asking because teams do so in the league cup. You don't have to register players for local competitions from what I recall. I reckon withdrawing was in protest for being forced to participate more than anything else.

Once again, let's put things in perspective. Are we strong enough to win the league next season, blind optimism aside? We're on a good run but unless we can consistently beat teams like Wolves and West Brom, we'll only be flattering ourselves to think so. I do however expect us to put up a challenge. Given this, what's wrong with earning some 'side income'. You're looking at the competition from a fan's perspective but what about a business one? Winners of Europa stand to win about $6-7$ million pounds. If we finish where we are in the Premiership now, we're looking at netting around $12 million pounds. Nothing wrong with playing in a "pathetic competition" to have an additional 50%. Also, if it's such a lousy competition, how come we can't win it? If we can't beat the likes of Braga, what hope do we have in the Premiership or even Champions League? It is Europe's 2nd tier competition but like it or not, it is also the level we're at now.

I think you underestimate our supporters. No one is forced to travel. You reckon the trip to Istanbul was any less painful? Michael Shields is still locked up in some Bulgarian prison. On the way to Turkey, many supporters stopped over in Hungary, not exactly known for it's hospitality. I didn't see our fans celebrate any less when we beat Alaves. We have one of the best away supports of any team in Europe and I don't think it's because our supporters feel that we're playing in a useless competition. I don't speak on behalf of anyone, but I watched 90% of our European games this season and those I missed, it was because of work, not because I didn't want to watch. Do I know for a fact our supporters don't feel the way you describe? I don't but from frequenting forums like RAWK, I've not seen any evidence of this.

Lastly, why do you feel our squad isn't good enough? Hodgson played a number of reserves in Europe this season and with the emergence of players like Robinson, Flanagan, Spearing and highly rated players like Pacheco, Suso and Coady in the wings coupled with the imminent return of players like Agger and Kelly, we have a pretty decent squad. Also, we won 5 cups in 2001 playing more games than anyone else. When we won the Champions League in 2005, we did so with the contribution of players like Biscan, Traore, Smicer, Pongolle and Mellor, none of which are regular starters.

Since you didn't answer my question earlier, can I then assume that you do agree with the monicker, "The Mickey Mouse" treble? We didn't just win 1 "pathetic competition" that year, we won 2 including the "Worth Nothing" or Worthington Cup. Sorry but I just don't see how you can continue to undermine our achievements and assume that they mean little to all Liverpool fans because it meant something to me. I don't support the club because they play in prestigous tournaments, I do so because watching 11 proud men in red with liverbirds on their chests run out onto the pitch, even if it is water logged and muddy, backed by the verocious support of the ever present 12th man, fighting for pride, makes me happy.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 18 2011, 01:46 PM

That's the thing, you get some posters here who watch youth games and even I admit I don't (mostly because because of shitty TM, can't wait to have my Unifi installed again). When it comes to the first team, I do my level best to catch any game even if it means I get 4 hrs sleep and have to get up early for work the next day. I don't do this to prove I'm a better fan, on the contrary I do so because to be pretty darn honest, a strong overwhelming guilt overcomes me whenever I miss a game. Even if we're down 3-0, with 5 minutes to go and no chance of winning, I can't bring myself to turn off the telly. Makes me feel like I'm abandoning the team. It's like I said, I feel bad not supporting the boys even they don't know I'm watching. I don't care as I don't do so because I want some form of recognition, I do so because it makes me feel better about myself.

I just spent 30 minutes the other day in a bar explaining to a girl why I love LFC and why I would even fathom getting not one but two tattoos? You know how people need guidance? Some look to religion, well I look to LFC. I told her that whenever I'm down, I look to the club for strength. I recite the lyrics to YNWA. A couple of years ago, I was going through the darkest time of my life and each time I saw our lads take to the field, my worries went away if just for 90 minutes. I can't describe it in any more details. It's why it never bothered me what competition we were in just so long as we were playing.

---

Added on May 18, 2011, 4:30 pmOn a separate note, I'm grinning from ear to ear at the moment. Just came out of a meeting with a representative from LFC. My hands were shaking as he handed me his namecard and I saw our club crest on it. We spoke a little on Liverpool and about me and how I became a fan. His pen had a Liverbird engraved on it as did his thumbdrive. Made me wish I was working for LFC!

Anyway we can expect to see more of LFC in the region over the next few years. The club is working hard at securing commercial partners and I got to know a couple of facts :-

1) Malaysians ranks 4th in terms of unique visitors to liverpoolfc.tv, our official website. This is a world ranking! We're behind the UK, US and Ireland. Well done boys!
2) Indonesia has the 2nd highest number of LFC facebook fans in the world! Well done neighbours.

I asked when the PC to announce ticket prices for July's game will be held and they're still working on it. Doesn't sound like it will happen until next month so be patient. He promised me an LFC thumbdrive and I'm looking to collect when he comes back in July!

Over the moon I am.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 18 2011, 04:30 PM

Since I don't read to well admittedly, perhaps you can tell me why the Europa Cup has lost it's prestige? It is still Europe's 2nd tier competition as was the UEFA Cup. Qualification for it hasn't differed in England at least. If anything it's a matter of perception. It isn't as marketed as heavily as the Champions League of course but it doesn't mean that winning it should be any less significant. If your perception is that it's a useless competition, then even if we do qualify for it and win, it will mean little to you but not to me. I savor any win and any game. I left a wedding before even going into the hall the other day just to rush back for the Newcastle game.

When we won the UEFA Cup in 2001, we beat Alaves, a side we've not heard of since. Hardly a prestigious final as the great Johan Cruyff insinuated but a final nonetheless and what a final it was! Too bad not many remember although it was just 10 years ago.

Who says those at RAWK don't attend games? Seasoned posters like Wooltonian and Garsonite don't attend games? Paul Tomkins is an author and he attends games. In fact I've corresponded with him personally on RAWK via PM.

I'm sure there are reasons for and against qualifying for the Europa League and we are obviously in opposite camps. Just like the League Cup, the Europa League can be used as an avenue to give the ressies some competitive European exposure at worst.

On the issue of Sunday games proving somewhat of an annoyance as some posters have indicated, well it's an annoyance to us given that some of us have to work the next day, but I can stomach that for the sake of the team. I know we don't watch games because it's convenient right?

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 18 2011, 06:21 PM

Fairplay. I'm just saying it isn't that it lost it's prestige. If you think it is a useless competition now, it was a useless competition then. If history is anything to go by, we do belong in the Champions League but it's arrogant to think that we're too good for the Europa League when we've lost 13 games this season and 11 the last. Based on those stats, we can't event take for granted we'll qualify for it every season because as it is, we very likely may not.

I can't say for certain the first team players look more disinterested than they did in the league at the time. Hodgson's reign wasn't exactly filled with enthusiam and optimism. You mention Reina but he has stated himself that qualifying is important for development (http://www.premierleaguenow.com/story.php?title=Reina:%20Europa%20League%20a%20must%20for%20Liverpool%20development&team=liverpool). Like I said earlier, it will give the youth and reserves valuable exposure. If not for lesser competitions like the League Cup or in this case, the Europa League, when else will they get a chance to play competitively?

It was dude. 5 cups in a season. Doesn't matter that some call it the "Mickey Mouse treble". Fact of the matter is not many have won 5 in a single season. Nice picture this of two living legends kissing the cup. The players look well chuffed to me. Winning is winning. Westerveld had a good season and I thought he would be our no.1 but his form deserted him. He could kick like a mule but wasn't very popular in the dressing room. He thought he was the best keeper in the world and I know for a fact after reading his biography that Robbie wasn't exactly his biggest fan. No one was.



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It's definitely the case of the latter i.e. heavy marketing of the Champions League. Think about it. With the rich becoming richer, everyone gravitates to the top. Gone are the days you'll find someone supporting Norwich, QPR, Southamption or Wolves. They may not have come in droves but I remember the days friends of mine became fans of these clubs because back in the day, few clubs bar Manchester United focused on the commercial element of the game. All that is changing now and the fact that I met with the bloke from Liverpool yesterday who is seeking commercial partners proves that. In time, more and more people will only support the bigger clubs or watch the biggest tournaments.

I'm confused. He said that the club wasn't doing well during Hodgson's reign.

Mmm how's that relevant to what you're saying? You are referring to King Kenny's reign and not Hodgsons lest I'm mistaken.

I don't know if distance is a valid excuse. I guess we can agree that you get more Eastern European teams from countries like Hungary, Bulgaria, Serbia and like but relative to England, it's not that different from having to travel to Scandanavia to face Basel, F.C Copenhagen, FC Malmo and like. I mean you need to consider that Champions League teams also have to travel all the way to Russia to face the likes of Zenit St. Petersburg or CSKA Moscow. In the end, both are European competitions and travel is limited to the region. If anything, I think it's the frequency of travel. How many games does it take to win the Europa League anyway? 20? 21?



Dude I'm only saying this because you mentioned it twice. You mean UEFA right? Anyway, interest in the Champions League isn't just rising amongst Liverpool fans lah. The appeal is world wide. I don't think it's anymore prestigous now and back in the days we won it 4 times. The name of the competition may have changed over time but that fact remains that it is still Europe's premiere club competition.

Like you I do cherish victories even if they don't come in top competitions. Success is relative and for a team who has finished outside the top 4 so often in the past 2 decades, winning the Europa League to me is an achievement. We need to accept that whilst we are gearing towards recovering our former glory, we aren't there just yet and while we may think we're Champions League material, our league form doesn't really reflect it. It's all relative. You can't expect Birmingham not to be happy to win their first competition since 1963 because it was only the League Cup.

Is right. If we did belong, we'd have qualified for it. Fact of the matter is that we weren't good enough over 38 games. I don't want us to sound like sore losers claiming it's where we belong when our league form tells us otherwise.

Whether or not it's merely an excuse to you, all evidence points towards it being true. Yes, as a professional, you should give your level best no matter what but being human, it's conceivable to believe that players play better when they're happy. Jamie Carragher is a legend and plays his heart out for us, yet he couldn't even find a way into the England setup ahead of Ledley King, Matthew Upsona and Michael Dawson.

Why the team didn't perform under Roy isn't just attributed to state of mind. His tactics were piss poor. The team already lacked motivation during Rafa's last year and it continued under Hodgson. Only after Dalglish was appointed that it picked up. Players like anyone else, require motivation. Hell as employees, we're paid to perform at our peak in the office and yet we have off days. Like us, players aren't machines.

Our revenue wouldn't hurt? Some money is better than no money and like I said earlier, winning the Europa League will amount to half what we'll get if we finish where we are in the league now. That's a fair sum. This is excluding revenue from ticket sales and TV rights. We do have a huge global fanbase which is exactly why we should capitalise on it by playing as many games as possible on TV. What? Are we going to rely on merchandise sales alone?

Read an article and here are the three main revenue streams for any football club.

During the group stages, prices for Europa tickets are what? Let's average it out at $25 pounds. Let's also only focus on home games and say we hit an average of about 80% capacity. This isn't taking into account that ticket prices grow as we progress into the group stage and so does turnout. Being conservative, that's 35,000 people mulitplied by $25 pounds which comes up to $875,000 pounds in revenue each game.

Here is an interesting discussion on .tv that you may have come across since you frequent the site.



I can't vefiry the source of the figures but as you can see from the replies, no on is contesting them. About 40% of our total broadcast revenue from last season came from the Europa League. Not substantial? Won't hurt much? I beg to differ.

While the Europa League may not be everyone's cup of tea, it makes good business sense to be in it, and judging from the numbers above, a lot of people still stay up to watch us play, me included.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 19 2011, 03:19 PM

The stuff you mentioned about Lebron, the Asian tour will all contribute to our commercial revenue, one of the top three income streams. Revenue streams are not mutually exclusive. We still need to consider broadcast revenue and match day income, and both depend on how many games you play in a season. The more the better. Commercially speaking also, teams are able to get more funding from sponsors if they are in Europe.

Qualifying for the Champions League should indeed be our goal next season but it is no guarantee. If we forgo the Europa League and hope to qualify for the CPL and fail to do so, we'll have missed out on a fairly large sum so do we risk it? Playing in the Europa League also doesn't mean you field a bunch of youth players. We have competition at almost all positions. Flanagan, Degen, Kelly and Johnson at right back. Skrtel, Agger, Carra, Kyrgiakos and Wilson at centre back. Aurelio, Konchesky (he's still in our books), Insua and Robinson at left back. Gerrard, Shelvey, Spearing, Lucas, Mereiles and Poulsen in the middle of the park. Kuyt, Maxi, Cole and Jovanovic out wide. Carroll, Suarez, and N'Gog up front and I've not included players on the brink of playing in the first team. My point is that barring injury, we do have players good enough for the first team sitting on the bench. When I say "good enough", it's relative to the teammates they are competing with.

Even if we fielded a lineup consisting of Jones, Flanagan, Aurelio, Kyrgiakos, Agger, Shelvey, Spearing, Mereiles, Jovanovic, Cole and say Carroll, it isn't exactly a team of kids. Almost all our internationals at some level. If you ask me it will be good to give them a run in the side.

So yeah, sure the CPL is more lucrative but what I'm getting at is that playing in the Europa League doesn't mean we won't qualify for it with the squad we have.

We're handing out Datukship's so liberally, to foreigners even and it's amazing to think that Lim Teong Kim hasn't been considered.

This.

The thing is your ticket prices need to be relative to the spending power of your supporters.

Anfield is indeed at capacity especially during big games and it isn't uncommon to find fans outside asking for tickets. Those that don't get any, end up watching in the surround bars like the Albert or Arkles. The most plausible solution is expansion of the stadium, a topic that has been discussed over and over.

This.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 20 2011, 11:56 AM

Any reason why?

Anyway I don't think your strategy will work tonight as we're playing tomorrow.

For the record, I was hoping for a top 6 finish and back then even that looked an impossible task. At one point we were 3 points off the relegation zone. Circumstances changes when King Kenny came in. What everyone said back then was based on the variables then, not now.

If you want to reflect, why not bring up the fact that I had wanted King Kenny at manager before the end of last season because I felt he would raise morale?

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 21 2011, 09:24 PM