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> [WTA] Grundfos Water Pump, CH-PT or CH-PC

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halcyon27
post Dec 26 2014, 11:15 PM

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QUOTE(BrandNewStart @ Dec 26 2014, 09:45 PM)
There are new pipings ley, hmmm

Oh! So if it's sediments , u mean when the booster pump is turned on, it will stir and disturbed the sediments ?
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The point of entry requires a sediment filter. Without this, expect brown water every time after disruption.

But if the supply pipes within your property leading to the tangki also is not changed and if they are the old GI type, there'll be internal rust particles sucked in unless another sediment filter is installed before entering the tangki.

Normally when changing piping, unless that involves changing tangki, a tangki wash is necessary because of accumulated sediments. Best is when repipe, do it in entirety ie from meter to and after tangki. Then install sediment filter after meter.

But then Malaysian water could cause the metal plumbing or components to rust due to reaction between dissimilar metals ie dissolved minerals and metallic components. Form four chemistry: Reduction oxidation (redox) phenomenon.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 26 2014, 11:21 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 26 2014, 11:41 PM

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QUOTE(BrandNewStart @ Dec 26 2014, 11:32 PM)
Yes, piping and tanks are new. Got jumped inside the tank and thoroughly washed it once too. I have a membrane outdoor filter after the meter. Rightfully I should not be facing the issue I am facing now. Confused ...
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Is the piping after membrane leading to tangki also changed in entirety or only the part that exits into roof space to the tangki only. Meaning there's still an embedded pipe that has not been changed?
halcyon27
post Dec 26 2014, 11:48 PM

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QUOTE(BrandNewStart @ Dec 26 2014, 11:44 PM)
But how did it happen in the first place? Is it because it's not being used frequent enough and there are water trapped/remain stagnant in the pump for few days , that's why causing the rust ? This doesn't sound right ley ..
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Many factors cannot contrrol esp water chemistry composition. Rusting cannot be avoided, only its effects minimised. Read up redox.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 26 2014, 11:49 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 26 2014, 11:55 PM

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QUOTE(BrandNewStart @ Dec 26 2014, 11:51 PM)
Oh, I never changed any of the piping. It's all built in as a new house ... The only thing changed was the connections between tanks and pump
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What material is the pipe that enters the ground after the meter?
halcyon27
post Dec 27 2014, 12:05 AM

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QUOTE(BrandNewStart @ Dec 26 2014, 11:58 PM)
Let me eliminate some points.

1. Got point of entry filter after meter.
2. What do you call those black flexible pipes? Thats what I have. Not metal pipes
3. Got wash the tank

Can I ask a dumb question. When the water flow from tank to the pump, would it create a strong current at the bottom of the tank thereby stirring the sediments ? I Thought the high pressured water is created only after the water from tank is flown into the pump (at normal speed rate as if there was no pump) .
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How old is your property ie how long ago was it built? Is number two used all the way to the tangki ie the plumber lay it running all the way to the tangki from the meter even changing for your kitchen pipes and laundry area or does it connect to a metal down pipe somewhere in the outside (which was dug up and then buried)? Cos if that's the latter, there's chances that it connected to an embedded pipe that is metallic.

When pump runs, it sucks water from your tangki.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 27 2014, 12:08 AM
halcyon27
post Dec 27 2014, 12:34 AM

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QUOTE(BrandNewStart @ Dec 27 2014, 12:21 AM)
Im of the view that it's the same pipe all the way to tangki. I need to see if there is way I can dig the ground to verify it haha

But what I'm sure is that in the bathrooms, it's the black pipe that's embedded. I know because I had the wall hacked and saw it
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That's from distribution point ie post tangki. What about supply point ie pre-tangki?
halcyon27
post Dec 27 2014, 06:38 PM

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QUOTE(BrandNewStart @ Dec 27 2014, 03:49 PM)
Pre-tangki is also black hose ...
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Ok this one going to sound nit picky but just so that you are sure.

The pre-tangki part normally a segment of it will be embedded. In landed, this normally traverse along the middle between car porch and traditionally front yard if there's one. Then it makes a bee line to the kitchen and branches off to the right outside the backyard just before the grassy part if any. Some houses can see stop cock going up along the outside of back toilet. That's the one that goes up to the tangki.

The black pipe should be something like Hansen or similar.

What it boils down to is how long ago this property was built. Chances are if it were very old, there's an embedded galvanized iron pipe along this segment. If so even if plumber repiped and changed it to black pipe after membrane, unless they hacked everything out to be black pipe, you can't be certain if it's that all along.

Even in my old place, the GI segment as described still remains. Unless you've seen them laying it while in renovation or if this is like brand new property then chances are it's black pipe.

What one of my neighbors have done is exposed the black pipe run along the perimeter wall and reroute it roofwards from the front. That means there's a branch off to the kitchen from the back off the roof which could be embedded along the exterior of the rear shared bath. Just the reverse. All to avoid the costly rehacking of the floor. They did it while renovating the back to reclaim the yard and cover it.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 27 2014, 06:42 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 29 2014, 11:41 AM

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QUOTE(Johannlo @ Dec 29 2014, 11:34 AM)
Guys,
I have a grundfos cm 3-5pm1 installed 1 year ago and just yesterday I noticed the pump runs every 1 minute for 3 seconds constantly.

Normally it would only run if any of the taps are on. And I checked the whole house and all taps are closed and no leaks detected.

What seems to be the problem ah?
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How old is the property? Has there been re-piping done before installing the pump or was it a retrofit to existing plumbing?

halcyon27
post Dec 29 2014, 12:21 PM

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QUOTE(weikee @ Dec 29 2014, 12:14 PM)
Sound you have leaking
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Which was what I was guessing too .

QUOTE(Johannlo @ Dec 29 2014, 11:51 AM)
Well, property is just 2 years old and I've stayed in only for a year now. Not sure about repiping but every piping/plumbing works are installed when building the house by the developer and not touched since then.

The pump is later installed next to the water tank in the attic when I moved in.
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I got that problem because of old piping (GI) after two years install pump but on a 30+ yo landed. The leak developed somewhere from the MBR tee branch to the an unused pillar tap for the front yard.

With water pump, the pressure should be calibrated to 3bar otherwise any stronger will need to ensure that the piping can take it.
halcyon27
post Dec 31 2014, 01:40 PM

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QUOTE(Johannlo @ Dec 31 2014, 03:02 AM)
Update.

Checked pipings, no leak whatsoever.

Called handyman come over to have a look and realize that the return pipe automatic valve gave way already. So the pump keep sucking out water from tangki and pump it but the water flow back to the Tangki after that therefore creating an infinity loop. The handyman went to close the return pipe stop valve and solved the problem.

Sifus, any consequences of disabling the return pipe?
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QUOTE(ozak @ Dec 31 2014, 09:13 AM)
I guess it is the check valve problem. Just replace it. Not expensive part.
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Thanks. Learn something new here. Yes replace it but with a reliable one made of brass like York (from Italy). They are called check valve or non-return valves (NRV). This one is available locally. Ask your plumber.

From here assuming if the pump is using 1.25" size check valves about RM48.00. Smaller (1" or 3/4") cheaper.

OTOH, you know realize that the NRV was the weakest link over time. If the NRV replaced is very durable then hopefully most unlikely because it's new piping but there's a small possibly that something else may give way over time. That was my experience with water pumps. Convenient yes but my old plumbing gave a lot of problems. Normally if the piping is durable it should not happen.

In my case, I should have re-piped the cold supply completely which means hacking out. It was first the water hammer, then toilet started to overflow until I replace the WC inlet filling with brass type. Then one day after two years, I started hearing pump running over time even when no one was using. Even after turning off, it was not until we started seeing abnormally high water bills then I realize an unseen leak developed somewhere.

A family friend's plumber did this simple detective work:
a. turn off pump
b. shut off each bathroom stopcock
c. shut off roof tangki stopcock and just before entering tangki isolation valve (if any)

Then turn on and off in order:
a. roof tangki stopcock only. Keep before tangki isolation valve closed (do not allow water filling into tangki)
This detects leak post water meter but before tangki ie embedded pipe from water meter into the house which means kitchen or backyard laundry. One of my friends in KL suffered this kind of leak which is indicated by the water meter running very fast. If not leaking (water meter not running), then the leak did not develop along this segment.
b. For each bathroom (one at a time) - open stop cock. Check for leaks. Turn on pump, see if it still runs after the initial prime. Shut off and repeat until all bathroom has been checked.

In my case, the pump continuously ran when the master bath stopcock was opened. It was not leaking from any of the outlet (bath, basin, WC) but he deduced that a branch out from the master bath to an closed off unused point at the front yard pillar tap was the suspect.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 31 2014, 02:35 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 31 2014, 03:09 PM

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QUOTE(Johannlo @ Dec 31 2014, 02:44 PM)
interesting. since the plumber disabled the return pipe from grundfos to tangki cause of faulty NRV, and I do not intend to replace the NRV yet, will I face any potential problems in the future?

what's the use of this return pipe anyway?
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The bypass is only meant to work when pump fails, you still get water albeit at smaller pressure.

Normally the NRV prevents water from the water pump from flowing back into the tangki.

Rough simplified schematics:
Tangki ____NRV_>__
|_>_ __|_>_pump_>_|__>____



What some would do is install quarter turn isolation valves (V) here:
Tangki _V3___NRV_V4_
|_>___ |_V1_pump_V2_|__>__



That means if unlikely case of pump failure, water could be manually diverted by opening the valves V3 and V4 and closing off V1 and V2. That's over-engineering where an NRV normally suffices. In the second part the NRV isn't necessary at all since V3 and V4 is normally closed.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 31 2014, 03:12 PM
halcyon27
post Jun 22 2017, 07:59 PM

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QUOTE(billyboy @ Apr 28 2017, 02:37 PM)
Hi

my friend's house has a Grundfos CH4-40 water pump. when on, the wall vibrate (due to water piper in the wall)....

i think the pressure too strong. suggest that he downgrade the water pump. already he had a >4 cases of burst water pipes (ABS pipe - blue colour - does not help also).

=> Can anyone suggest a weaker pump or any other way to reduce the pressure ?

thank you thank you

CH4 - 40
Specifications

Product name CH 4-40 A-W-A-CVBE
Product No 44501104
EAN number 5708601045899
Price On request
Technical
Rated flow 5 m³/h
Rated head 20.8 m
Head max 34 m
Primary shaft seal CVBE
Pump version A
Model H
Materials
Pump housing Cast iron
Pump housing EN-JL1030
Pump housing ASTM 30 B
Impeller Stainless steel
Impeller DIN W.-Nr. 1.4301
Impeller AISI 304
Material code A
Installation
Range of ambient temperature 0 .. 55 °C
Max pressure at stated temp 6 bar / 90 °C
Max pressure at stated temp 10 bar / 40 °C
Connect code W
Pump inlet Rp 1 1/4
Pump outlet Rp 1
Liquid
Pumped liquid Water
Liquid temperature range 0 .. 90 °C
Q_OpFluidTemp 20 °C
Density 998.2 kg/m³
Electrical data
Motor type MG71
Power input - P1 965 W
P2 660 W
Mains frequency 50 Hz
Rated voltage 3 x 220-240D/380-415Y V
Rated current 2,8/1,6 A
Maximum current consumption 2,8/1,6 A
Enclosure class (IEC 34-5) IP54
Insulation class (IEC 85) F
Motor protec NONE
Thermal protec external
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Sounds like a pump that suited for pushing water up based on "Head max". If there's no alternative step down / de-rated / reduced power setting then better change to another.

Looks like a multi stage series based on the pdf.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Jun 22 2017, 08:04 PM
halcyon27
post Oct 1 2017, 11:06 PM

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QUOTE(blurcase @ Aug 28 2017, 05:27 PM)
Previous pipe class 7, now also still class 7. Just that my water tank is on a cement platform on top of the roof, and it is exposed to sunlight and rain. Over time all the pipes in that area that is connected to the Grundfos pump cracks one way or another. Worst part is each time we rejoin, need to leave at least 12-24 hours for the joint to harden before turning on the pump again, else the joint will burst (just happened again yesterday).

I remember seeing before a commercial plastic pipe system that uses a special tool to heat melt the joints, but dunno where to get.
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PVC has a max heat temperature of 50°C rating above which it will plasticize and lose its ability to withstand pressure. Even if the pipe is not directly exposed but the water tank is, sustained water temp above 45°C when travelling through the pipe is within its limit already. What more if those black polytank is under an uninsulated tile roof where water is close to borderline scalding or worse the water tank is exposed to the elements and it can reach 50°C. See here.

Hence, anything outdoor exposed should use pipe material like Hhigh Density Polyethylene (HDPE) like Hansens that can withstand UV and temperature up to 60°C rating.

PVC should only be used indoors only but ensure that they are spaced adequately far apart from hot water piping. Anything roof or expose should use HDPE or ABS (max temp up to 80°C).

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 1 2017, 11:39 PM
halcyon27
post Oct 17 2017, 10:01 PM

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QUOTE(pwk1983 @ Oct 16 2017, 11:17 AM)
Hi all the experts here, I am looking at this 2 option for my house. 3 stories medium size terrace house with 2 bathroom (1st floor and 2nd floor) and 1 powder room (ground floor).

1. Joven JHP 2-30
2. Grundfos Scala 2

Can share with me some precious advise? Thank you.
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Different application needs appropriate appliance.

A. Central water pump for bath and shower with hot water plumbing is built in for central hot water storage tank (electric, hybrid heat pump, solar or a combination of it).

B. Instant hot water with pump is suitable where there's no separate dedicated hot plumbing in the bathroom. Electrical plug point and cold water divert inlet to water heater needs to be prepared beforehand.

If you want to go with A, ensure the bathrooms are already equipped with dedicated hot water plumbing and storage water heater have the necessary electrical connection ready for water pump. Otherwise it's a renovation of its own.

B is an easy retrofit where hot water plumbing is absent but the necessary for instant water heater is also prepared else need to renovate.

Usually top floor, water pressure suffers unless tangki has at least 10ft drop from its outlet to the bath fixture. Lowest floor powder room gain about 1 bar increase per 10m (33ft) drop from tangki outlet to their bath fixture.

Centralised pump benefits at least 2 bathrooms or more with centralised hot water and low water pressure. If hot water plumbing is already built in, go with A. You may not need to go with Scala 2, any smaller pump will do even a Hitachi. Ensure that the pump sits on an anti-vibration mat. Just ensure there's proper sediment point of entry filtration like membrane filter which will safeguard the water pump, storage / instant water heater and shower/taps and they will last a very long time. Scala 2 would do well with at least 2 to 4 bathrooms (8 taps) on the same floor ie bungalow experiencing water pressure issues. The lowest floors will be stronger as there's 1 bar gain per 10m drop already. But in situation where tangki is not on the top floor the uplift will benefit lower to upper floors, the Scala2 makes sense as max lift is up to 8m.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 18 2017, 05:43 AM
halcyon27
post Nov 16 2017, 11:45 AM

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QUOTE(th3game @ Nov 16 2017, 09:02 AM)
want to ask regarding type of pipe can be used for water pump.

1st, I'm planning to replace all the pipe connected in my newly bought double storey house
starting from water meter until pipe connected to all the water fixtures in my house. Since this is
a old housen (>20 yrs old), then the pipe used was Galvanized Iron Pipes (GI)

The decision was made to change all the GI pipes because I'm planning to use water pump later and afraid because of the
high pressure and corroded old GI pipe, it will burst and become headache to me after that.Actually I'm changing tiles for all my bathroom
then make decision to change the concealed GI pipes also.

my question is now since i want to change all the GI pipe concealed in the wall, i wonder of what type of pipes should be used>

1. my contractor suggests to me to change:
  from water meter<poly pipe >water tank in the ceiling<water pump>poly pipe to all fixtures>e.g water faucets in bathroom

2. my planning:
  from water meter<poly pipe >water tank in the ceiling<water pump>PVC schedule 40 pipe to all fixtures>e.g water faucets in bathroom

the only diferent is using poly pipe and PVC pipe after the water pump to all the water fixtures

my concern is which is more resistance to leak for connection

PVC use glue for connection and Poly use threaded

need suggestions pls... icon_question.gif
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Wise choice. I learnt the hard way in my 33yo DSL with solar water heater and Grundfos Sofjet 2 7 years back when the GI pipes failed and the monthly water bill went up 15 fold.

Some suggestions:
1. Segregate WC and shower. The WC need not be pumped driven. But that means there'll be two cold branch going to your bathrooms. Downstairs not possible.

2. Pipe material determine if they will plasticise under high temperature in the roof. If the roof is insulated, not an issue. In terms of plasticization at 45°C in ascending order of resistance:
PVC < ABS < High Density Polyethylene (HDPE) < Stainless steel / copper

Sometimes uninsulated roof space reaches close to 50°C and where the roof slopes towards the front or back of the house, the roof tile nearer where the pipes descends into the brickwork of the toilet can be very hot exacerbating the tendency to soften non metal pipes.

PVC can be embedded inside the wall where it won't be subject to high temperature that causes it to deform. Care should be taken worth hot water pipes which should be at least 6-8" away.

3. This is one time pain but my old neighbour did this: reroute pipe from meter and rocket filter (with extra faucet for garden) up to the roof at the front of the house to the tangki. They branch this pipe to where the back GI pipe from the ground floor up to the tangki is replaced with poly towards the back where it branch to laundry and kitchen. If you're able to add a bigger tangki or an extra one, the back and kitchen will use this one. Definitely cost to rehack at the back and kitchen but not add bad as the whole house but the pipe doesn't run along the inside of the house from the front to the back anymore.

Care should be taken such that the pipes are spec for high roof temperature. HDPE like Hansen works well as its quick fitting. PVC, ABS, HDPE or steel can be embedded into the wall for bath/shower and sinks.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Nov 16 2017, 12:01 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 16 2017, 03:11 PM

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QUOTE(malibuchong @ Dec 5 2017, 06:49 PM)
better to install scala2 before or after a water filters?
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Always after filters and placed after tangki if you're in landed dwelling. You want the pump protected. Most important criteria for the filter must be able to cut out mud, silt, rust. If you use those stone and sand media, protect it further with another layer of 10 micron pleated filter before it enters the pump. With membrane or 3M AP902 that won't be necessary as it is already protected at point of entry.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 16 2017, 03:31 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 25 2017, 11:38 AM

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QUOTE(Gaza @ Dec 21 2017, 11:57 AM)
Any thoughts on this Hitachi water pump?
http://hitachiconsumer.com.my/products/wat.../wt-p150xs.html

I stay in single storey landed with 2 bathrooms, need water pump mainly for rain shower and no loss of pressure when other outlet being used (washing machine, flush toilet, etc)
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Get one that services at least 6-7 outlets then. Ensure anti vibration mat are installed under the pump. This one looks better with one extra feature.

Also, ensure there's adequate filtration before the pump ideally after (point of entry) the water meter to filter out the pump killers: sand rust silt mud. If this is done then ensure tangki is washed thoroughly first to get rid of any resident pump killing matter before plumber installs the pump.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 25 2017, 11:55 AM
halcyon27
post Dec 26 2017, 04:35 PM

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QUOTE(Gaza @ Dec 26 2017, 04:24 PM)
Thanks! Whats the reason for the anti vibration mat?
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Sums it up pretty much in principle. The vibration will be transmitted outwards from where the pump is located. If not attenuated, it might be nuisance at best or the pump night be prone to "walking" or be transmitted along the piping. For that where piping is known to hit the other part of the roof support, place a small piece of anti vibration mat (cut to size) in between to shield it from this tendency.

Note: everyone upstairs might still hear the pump's soft humming when it's operating. That can't be avoided but if your plumber has done something marvellous that reduced the humming such that the only time you're aware that it's operating is when you're directly under it, do share. I want to know how also.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 26 2017, 04:42 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 29 2017, 04:19 PM

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QUOTE(Gaza @ Dec 29 2017, 03:52 PM)
Do you know which shops to find these kind of vibration mats?
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Where you buy the pumps they will sell else ask your plumber. Some models do provide one. Try online like AKTC or RS online which might sell.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 30 2017, 02:11 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 29 2017, 05:22 PM

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QUOTE(veron4best @ Dec 29 2017, 05:08 PM)
These are more like pads but suited to washing machine.

Mats are like this or this.

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