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kenmirzz
post Feb 21 2012, 01:02 PM

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I am an agnostic here. I do not understand why the religious scriptures that originated from Middle East such as Torah, Talmud, Bible and Koran contained violent teachings and injunctions? I tried the Old Testament, read it and cannot accept how can a "god of mercy" condoned the genocide, massacre and atrocious treatment towards certain inhabitants like the Canaanites, Amorites, etc? This is quite absurd.

I think that parts of Old Testament were Jewish myth that seek to condemn their enemies. Anyone can have better explanation? I do not want the explanation of periodic difference such as warfare period and grace period(New Testament). This is not so solid arguments.
kenmirzz
post Feb 21 2012, 03:47 PM

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QUOTE(stefanong @ Feb 21 2012, 01:37 PM)
Because this same God of mercy and love is also a God of justice. Sin unfortunately required the death penalty; no exceptions.

which also explains why the need of animal sacrifices; ie the animal died in the place of the sinner in the old testament.
and yes this is better suited in another more theologically focused channel.
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I understand your point of view, sir. But I find no justification to murder even infants as stated in the Old Testament. Nobody with sane mind will praise Hitler for the crime of extermination, but when it comes to God, we try to whitewash and rationalize the deeds. The Books of Numbers are full with god's atrocious deeds.

New Testament is okay and Jesus Christ was portrayed as a lover of humankind, either foes or friends. That's good there. But still, those who do not accept him as "son of god" will be roasted in hell fire eternally, that's way too cruel sir.

Even though generally Christians do not emulate the teaching in OT, they still respect it and believe it to be inspired. If we read the OT critically, it's more like a Jewish myth. Jewish people in captivity wrote those books to console and pacify the people, and use god as the excuse to make this myth more believable.
kenmirzz
post Feb 22 2012, 01:27 PM

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QUOTE(stefanong @ Feb 22 2012, 11:06 AM)
There is no whitewashing. Sin = death. it is absolute and non negotiable.

We fail to realise that God (whether or not we believe in His existence) by virtue of being God dispenses judgement with or without our consent. He is neither moved or affected by man's justification, scorn or rationalisation. So really it is futile.

No, to be correct, the Old Testament is the basis of the New Testament and were not myths to console. The book of Deuteronomy, Judges and Lamentations were really judgements and quite frankly depressing.

People have the misconception that the Old Testament was superceded by the New Testament since Jesus was all peaceful like (also a misconception). The truth is He came to not only reinforce but to bring the laws of the OT to a whole new level. eg. If the actual act of untoward behaviour towards a woman was sin, Jesus said now the mere thought of commiting sin is already sin...YIKES!

What He did stress was religious law led to death but a relationship with God leads to life which was really the essence of the NT. but again this is better answered in a more theological channel also it helps to actually read and research first the OT and NT before making assumptions on what Christians do or do not believe. Just saying...
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Yes, God dispense judgment, just like the terrorists believed to be when they blowed themselves up and take pride in carrying out God's judgment. When the Jews massacred the inhabitants, Amorites, Amelikites, Canaanites, etc, they took pride in calling that as God's dispensation of his uncontested justice. After all, God or Yahweh was on their side, ain't it?

Sin=Death? The concept of sins are relative and not absolute. For Christians, polygamy is a sin, but not for almost all prophets from Abraham to David. Just because the non-Jews in those days were worshipping Baal, instead of Yahweh, that's made them culpable and liable to be exterminated? Nice logic there, buddy. No wonder Richard Dawkins is sick of religions per se. Even though I'm not at his level yet.
kenmirzz
post Feb 22 2012, 04:56 PM

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QUOTE(stefanong @ Feb 22 2012, 04:53 PM)
Agreed. This is doctrine and theology pretty heavy stuff and not suitable for a channel like this.
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Okay, let's continue there.
kenmirzz
post Feb 24 2012, 08:29 AM

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QUOTE(stefanong @ Feb 23 2012, 10:09 PM)
No actually to his credit he claims to be skeptic agnostic so faith has no place in this; considering that a skeptic agnostic finds no compelling reason to believe in the existence or the non existence of God. Unfortunately, if one is truly skeptic agnostic there is no reason to attack or criticize another person's faith in a deity just because one believes that ultimately the human mind is incapable of knowledge of the supernatural.

That is being rude and judgmental. His arguments really are repetitious and I have already summarized and answered them. Flogging a dead horse and trying to revive the whole argument by baiting and taunting others really is futile at the end of the day.
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My refutations was deleted. Yes, I am a skeptic agnostic and open to criticism. And no, you didn't refute me in any way, sir. You merely attempt to explain away the OT. My apology if I hurt you in any way. How about you move this thread to "Serious Kopitiam"?

But deleting my comments, that's odd, just like banning of books and literature.


QUOTE
Shouldn't be surprise at the rude and judgemental part. The world shape their thoughts and upbringing. They don't know what is really going on.


So, you know the "truth" then?

This post has been edited by kenmirzz: Feb 24 2012, 08:31 AM
kenmirzz
post Feb 24 2012, 08:57 AM

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QUOTE(eXyzt @ Feb 24 2012, 08:45 AM)
No, this topic is for general chat. There is already a topic in RWI that discusses religion. That's also why your comments were deleted. It has no place in here but should be put in RWI. If we start debating religion here, the mods will delete the thread.
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The topic at RWI is generally for all religions. I would prefer a topic for each religion, so that I can refute them all. I cannot use my arguments against the Koran for the Bible, vice versa.

Sorry guys, and Moderator too.


kenmirzz
post Feb 24 2012, 08:33 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Feb 24 2012, 08:30 PM)
To put it simply it's for fellowship among believers.
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How about non-believers then?
kenmirzz
post Apr 14 2012, 12:31 PM

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QUOTE(fghvbn @ Apr 12 2012, 02:17 PM)
Romans 3:25
For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past,
In the past, Man had to sacrifice animal and let their blood flow in order to have their sin to be forgiven. But Jesus is the LAMB of GOD which had committed no sin and was obedient to the point of death and he bear all of our sin and the blood of lamb will forever flow to forgive the sin of mankind as long as they believed in the name of Jesus.


Added on April 12, 2012, 2:18 pm"Hebrews 9:22 says, "Without shedding of blood there is no remission."  I John 1:7 tells us that "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin." God, in choosing the cleansing agent for our sins, chose the very best that He had, the blood of His own Son. It is by the precious blood of our Lord, that we are cleansed from all of our sins. Revelation 1:5 says, "To Him who loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood." Yes, it is only by the blood of our Lord, that we get our sins washed away. John 19:34, "But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out." Jesus shed His blood for us, in His death, when He died on the cruel cross of Calvary.

How do we come into contact with that cleansing blood, which our Lord shed in his death, in order to have our sins washed away? Romans 6:3 tells us how. "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?" Since Christ shed His blood in His death, when a person is baptized into our Lord's death, it is there that he comes into contact with the blood of Christ and his sins are then washed away. Baptism is the only means of reaching His death where His blood was shed, so we can have forgiveness of sins. So, when Ananias told Paul in Acts 22:16, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins," it was the blood of Christ that washed away Paul's sins when he was baptized.

Have you been baptized to have your sins washed away by the blood of Christ? If you haven't, then you still have every sin that you have ever committed. With your sins you can't go to heaven to be with God when you die, but you will have to go to the other place where there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth forever and ever. You may have been baptized into a denominational church, but not for remission of your sins so you can be saved.  If you have not been baptized for the remission of your sins, so that you can be saved, then the blood of Christ will be of no benefit to you, and Christ’s death for you was in vain. But please take advantage of Christ having died for you. Only you can do this for yourself."
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Not a satisfying answer, sir. Why should my sins being washed by the blood of Christ or animals? What if someone who never heard of Jesus and disbelieve in him? Will be burned eternally in the blazing hel fire?

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