Ahem what do you mean by disrespectful and scornful? I disagree.

Pastors are human beings. Yes submission to authority. But some of them tend to be bullies. I know of one youth pastor, he outrightly told me off that I am an outsider and not belong to his congregation just because I didn't attend his youth service when I was 10 years old.

I once brought up the issue about the lack of fellowship and the clickishness of a youth church. But the pastor chastised me and told me to persevere rather than bringing up to the youth leadership and doing somehting about it.

I have even witnessed one occassion that a pastor influence a girl to break up with her boyfriend. Four years later he married her. Wow, speak of conflict of interest.

And what about cases in singapore? I don't want to mention names due to legal ramifications. But we have heard of one ongoing in singapore about funds use by pastor's spouse for singing career. Another church, divided because too much funds allocated for a building. I know of an insider in that church told me about how bias the funds were approved, every one of the officials chosen to approve it are the pastor's close confidants.

We need to discern ! Not blind submission.

Shucks, what is there to forgive?

1)The church that overbudgeted their building fund and cause the church to be short of fund is not my church.
2)The youth pastor who induced the girl to break up the bf and married her, has nothing to do with me
3)The youth pastor who told me off that I am an outsider, I just left and did better at another church, I am glad he told me that or else I won't know the true pic there. So what is there to forgive? In fact, he blessed me more when I found somewhere better.
4)The singapore church is not my church, so why i must be mad at them?

Sigh....my topic is not about god judgment about them. Everybody, even christians after we die, we will face judgement at the judgement seat of christ.

My topic here is...even church leaders are imperfect, we need to discern and by discerning means we need to ask god for direction and strengthen our knowledge in the word. Because unknown warrior say that I was rude to them. I never say anything rude to them. Like i say, the youth pastor who call me an outsider, I dunno wat happen to him, but I just left the church and am glad I found somewehre better. Anyhow, there was once, I ask him if i could use the church toilet during a while waiting for transport. He say ok, and then he let me into the office. Then as I was coming out, he locked me in the church office ! I peaked through the window and saw he and his wife few feet away. I tried to shout to the top of my voice to ask him to help open the door. But he ignored me. Then one member saw that, and tell him that i was calling him but his back is turn against me and didnt bother to respond.

If what i can say is, the pastor is wierd. He must really dislike me...maybe i yong sui or something. But there's nothing to forgive because i moved on. I am just telling u tht people r not perfect in this world.

any comment about this statement?

One Scripture tells me that Jesus is not God because Jesus himself defined who is God and who isn't. Jesus prayed to the Father in John 17:3-"And this is the way to have eternal Life, by knowing you, the Only True God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth". When Jesus already defined who is the Only God, then he has already defined who isn't God, which is everybody else. So, Jesus did say in that scripture that he is not God.

hi UW, in ur believe u consider jesus a god or god n man?

god die? that is impossible.
if jesus god how u explain this:
Jesus in Praying to HIS FATHER said: "This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ. John 17: 3. So listen to what the son says when he calls his father THE ONLY TRUE GOD!

Jesus is a servant of God. (Acts 3:13)

I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." Rev 14: 14-15 Here is Jesus is taking orders from another angel ! Can we believe that an angel who orders Christ to harvest the earth is giving orders to God Himself! Or that he would have to tell the omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing) Most High "God the Son" when and how to do anything?

hmmm ok. however it doesn't make sense for jesus to be both. god is a creator. man is a creation. this defies all logic

downloading..
downloading.. btw its this illegal? LOL! 
Good day brother alvin,

Actually is just Post #3570 that is important, others are all quotes from your examples that I agree 

hehe, God bless!
on a side note: tell me what do you think of this year's Dec 21,2012 even though it is not the end of times. 

My friend was talking with me over the phone for an hour for this issue. He worries much that if Christ comes, he is not ready. acc to my friend, the 3-day darkness of earth (where the sun will be eclipsed - can be scientifically explained) but falls too much coincidentally with Christ dying on the cross. It will happen at 3.21pm (GST?!) - Christ died around this time, and there was total darkness.
3 days, Resurrection. and the Sun will appear again. well he seems to think that after this, is a 'new' period on earth, perhaps a period of more chaos and dark times..
Of course, as Christians we should prepare always regardless of when etc even though it will not be in our lifetime, and also to look optimistically.

Seek my forgiveness? I have no problem with them. But they seem to have some problems with me.

You see, I visited that youth church, at that time I was looking for a church to settle down after my studies. But it was hard to mix because they were very clickish and the youth pastor distrusted newcomers.

As you have read, the youth pastor was very rude.

I brought this up to one of the youth leaders. You know what he said to me? He told me off that I am a newcomer and that I needed to gain the trust of the rest of them. He told me to stay long like 5 to 10 years and persevere to gain acceptance there. I was thinking like...this is ridiculous. THis is the house of god, the place where we welcome the lesser people because it is these people who will serve the church, not the rich, not the handsome or pretty, nor the influential politicians. So why must i prove myself to gain their trust? THat is ludicrious. If the youth pastor is so distrustful to outsiders, then don't bother starting any ministry or church in the first place, because everything we do is a risk and if we don't trust god and rely on our own discrimination against other people for safety and security, then mind as well close down the church.

Btw, I did ask for a role in the youth ministry but was not granted any.

And so, I went for youth bible study and every time I run into that youth leader who told me that ridiculous statement, you know what? I smile at him...even wave hi to him...he ignored me.

Gosh. Later I ask him why he is like that. Then he made excuses that he is like that, because he is busy from work and thinking a lot of things.

But seriously, if we are to show such blackfaces in front of our brothers and sisters in christ then don't bother to serve. He serves a lot but he don't reflect any kindness at all, thats for sure.

no worry 
With this quote above, I really hope that u may take unknown warrior advise as below.
Let's put the "subject" away together and let it all go in Jesus Name. And I hope brother alvin can stay in this thread longer too.. so we all together can learn more in coming days. 

  You are a gifted preacher. I bold your last quote: it sums up what I wanted to say about we both agree faith + grace = fruits (works of faith)
but in this sermon that you give, you let me realise one more thing: faith + works still will not work, and this is why I feel unworthy of the righteousness that you ask me to feel - to believe that I am this righteous person. It all inter-connects, flowing beautifully like a music scoresheet.

yeah, i sent it to my friend. 

about ur advice to bro alvin on subconscious unforgiveness, I want to to share one of my own experience: the darkest time of my life. It is also this exp that I come to God ever closer than ever, that I understand what is weakness being made perfect in strength (of God)

I was in a relationship only once in my whole life, with a russian girl (extremely beautiful one too) 4 years ago (I study med in rus). It was my 1st year, coming out of a chinese all-boys sch, growing up in an asian env, we are used to guys courting girls. and Girls (jual mahal) and play the tom and jerry game to attract attention. Come here, I would say I am born with good looks (cute, sweet type) and I naturally attract ppl to look at me several glances. But bec of family upbringing (thank my parents), I am not one of those who go and court and want a relationship to get attention or 'glory'. In rus, girls court guys. They marry young (20-22 are prime age for marriage). Unbeknownst, they are also open-minded, outspoken. There was 1 I really like bec of her efforts to gain my attention, and would do all sorts to ask me out and help me in shopping, translating for me to rus in many things. We grew close and we just kissed (I reluctantly give and go for all out romance after her clever ways of indicating to me). At that time, I indulge in a lustful 1st kiss. and soon I am chained in this desire to want more kisses.

God, so love me, did try to warn me many many times, through all little miracles that I only found out after I was hurt (dumped) and I recalled what went wrong.
Most significant 1st miracle I tried to bring her to church, to bring her to closeness with Christ. I am a very cheerful innocent person at that time, as in I thought I can have a most perfect first love-->marriage etc she agree to come to me if not I go to hers. First time just before entering church premise, she hesitates, and kissed me. that was the first kiss where my lips bleed. (I dont know why...until I recall - God wanted me to know this is not the correct person and will lead me away, like the sacred heart of Jesus bleeding) I decided to agree to her not to enter
Other warnings include she walked past the cross and altar of church without glancing, hiding behind me and said she is afraid, during solo walk Holy Spirit tells me she will not wait for me etc etc

Anyway, its full of ups and downs. Bec I felt being used even though we kiss every time theres no satisfaction, once watch movie in room, she hinted want me to stay back and just sit there - God knows what she thinks (no XXX as I very very particular about this, till marriage), to pull myself out before its too late, I said I would get home and then she agreed. and we started to make out less . fast forward to last moments: its Good Friday. we went to christian fellowship (student group) to watch Passion of Christ together. She just refused to look at how Christ got crucified and close eyes or look down. She is afraid..or so I thought and I hold her hands and take down the cross from my neck for her to hold.
During easter, her candle was blown away, while all of us our candles are still lit (despite some slight winds) - and Holy Spirit at that time tells me, her faith is wanting. she will betray me and I will see.

3 weeks later after good friday, i wanted to invite her for authentic Chinese dinner. when I went to her room, I walked past a dark shadowy couple there making out lustfully (I used to maim myself from looking at romances of others for it induces negative thoughts or desires). it was locked, I walked away...and then, suddenly a voice called me from behind: how are u jeffrey? my name
to my horror, she was sitting there with a moroccan guy,  That stunned moment: Holy Spirit repeats: she betrays you.

I just said: are you happy? and she nodded and I left , running as fast as i can, and I cried uncontrollably. flashes of memories of Crucifix of Christ and the betrayal of Peter denying 3 times (3 weeks it takes after Easter) and to think back of her refusal to see crucifix scene bec she will exactly do this to me 3 weeks later all make the more I hate her, for everything of this to come true. This is the most cruel way of dumping someone but from it, from this, Christ strengthen me to where I stand today, which I totally be grateful of. I rmb I had a depression of a few months, replacing classes when I feel better, I even think of ____ my life, for there goes my perfect dream. I couldnt bear it, I wish the 2 months faster come, so I can get home to malaysia and at least forget all these for a while. But I rmb, I am the hope of my parents, I cannot be irresponsible.

as u know we RCC believe in Sacrament of Confession. I have to make confession before I can receive Eucharist (bec its mortal sin to think of ___ life, and not to forgive). I refuse to forgive her I was full of anger, such that the priest ask me before he initiates the rite of reconcillation: do u wish to forgive her? I said no, not within this time. He did it anyway, and somehow I felt lighter, I feel calm and when I try to be angry, I could not during the Mass.
God bore all of it upon Himself. Its also a miracle this one. till now I have no explanation how I stopped to hate her. It is how I started to pick myself up. ''what i can say from this is, I firmly believe, through sacraments of RCC grace of God can be imparted to RCCs apart from what we general Christians practice''

There was even once, shortly after, I went to church after class just to sit and talk with God, crying all over. The bright lit summer day turns grey and then rains heavily when I cried to God. and I felt touched, that God still tells me then: He is always with me.
Following then, I grew closer and love God more, for He saved me, from a disaster that could have been worse. Not just attending and celebrating the Mass, my friends, esp christians encourage me, ask me to attend talks etc, and through that, through the priest who is still very much cares for me and calls me a friend, I now can lead my life happily, in Christ. Each time I think back, I would wept in tears, so after 2 years, I become stronger
Now, after the seniors graduated, I became elected to president of catholic fellowship student group with previous presidents guiding me and moulding me, and I try my best to serve Lord even the Church helps me, sends me to Vatican for free trips, for meetings, shaking hands with Cardinal, Archbishops, celebrating Mass with the Pope, I am thankful for all I have, for with Christ, it definitely is a better, more fruitful life.

we never speak again after that, despite her attempts to (i.e invite me to her house again to eat (alone), want to photostat or need my help in Eng for smtg..) I think the most beautiful love I can gave during that period: is Christ - I gave her a Rosary with the Cross amongst the minor- teaching her chinese, strengthening her english, a chinese b'day celebration with my bare hands amongst, even though I never acknowledge her as my gf publicly - which is the reason my friends laugh at me and pointed to me for the reason she dumped me.

Of course, I thank God for the lesson, it makes me matured in thinking, and in preparing myself for my future bride. I nv pray for love, for I am studying well, my life is full of graces of God. I believe He sets my life in motion and carry me, so I need not be afraid anymore  I do however, pray to not be over-passionate (be it rus, lithuanian, polish, italians, spanish, wherever I go they come attracted esp to what I have to say - even though they also say I am long-winded, and hugs, kisses on cheek are norm in EU, even holding hands to not let them slip in winter - so I really have to pray for be loving, but not being too passionate in what I do, but within limits) and I am a bit perfectionist. I do still have russian friends who are good, truthful and loving at the same time, which to me I say exceptional russians, for contemporary rus 80% goes for physical. Something, which I think, I pray for all the time.
oops, another TLDR 

Hi unknown warrior,

i have a question here.

let say we already forgive people who hurt us. tat person is our buddy.

should we continue be friend with him? o stop contacting?

what to do to avoid the same person hurting us again? what to do to avoid the same tragedy happening again?

thanks

I hope bro Unknown Warrior has no problems with me doing a little preaching and sharing.

i got a problem...
my friend don't believe in Jesus but he believe in God
he dont believe jesus is son of God
he think Jesus is just a prophet only..same like the Muslim Muhammad.
how should i explain to him?
he is a chinese..

I vote u & unknown warrior to open new thread 

When we sin against God. Try to keep short record. After you have committed the sin ask God to for forgiveness there and then. On the spot. Don't wait until at night or the morning when we do our daily prayer.

Since I am like the only catholic active here (for now),