that's correct, a murderer can go to heaven. a "righteous" person can go to hell in a nutshell. i'm not here to argue. and yes RWI should be the place to do this. i'm stating valid points why religion or christianity does not cut it with me and many others as well. thanks. i shall leave this thread now, lest i'd be seen as a troublemaker. my apologies if i've offended anyone here

Actually there is no difference between a murderer and a righteous man. Both are void of God.

I don't think anyone here considers you a troublemaker or felt offended, just that "serious" religious debate supposed to go to RWI as per LYN's ... policies

then i see you don't have any problem forgiving a murderer of your loved one (for example) if that's the case while God has problem forgiving someone who does not believe in him, you are more righteous to me, bro honestly

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Added on March 19, 2012, 11:14 amoklah, i've overstayed my due. thanks for all the explanations

This post has been edited by hotjake: Mar 19 2012, 11:14 AM

well I don't see the situation that calls for a parable yet. Perhaps in the next situation. There are times for parables and there are time for direct and plain explanation. It's always better to be under the guide of the Holy Spirit to speak. And it is scriptural to speak plainly as well as you can see below.



Jesus is referring to himself as the Truth. It's funny how truth spoken in this context is referred to as a person rather than a situation. What He's actually saying He is God.



Since He is God, We believe all his words are the truth.



Why is it in the old testament God gave the laws and required you to follow it and in the new testament, Faith supersedes it? Throughout time, nobody could whole heartedly follow it perfectly as you can see God's words above.

and here's the reason why.


You break one you break all of it. So how can anyone attain salvation then? by this account nobody can.

You keep on hammering that God should be a God of love and not send anyone to hell, well He has made a way in the new covenant that Salvation is by Faith and yet you refuse to believe because it sound too good to be true and seems too easy?

What is there left to satisfy you then if this is not love?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 19 2012, 10:03 PM

Nobody is perfect brother.

But God is Big enough to love everyone, even sinners.

H4E will come back to repentance.

@hotjake

by looking at your arguments it is certain to me that God has his eyes on you as you are favored by Him.


Why bother to make an argument in the first place if you did not care at the first place.

So to me, you cared at the first place.

God Bless

Why Faith?

There are a lot of people do believe there is a God.

Only problem is, they are angrily bitter and could not comprehend
the problems they have in their life, the problems of this world,
the messed up stuff that's in this world, Why is God not doing anything to solve it.

Therefore based on eye sight, rather than Faith-sight they give up and conclude there is no God.

If anyone has Faith, they will see the deep things of God, and in fact many things are moving behind the scene when one believes.

Why Faith?

Faith is a very high virtue. During Jesus time, He often said:




Notice that it is Faith that moves God. Something about Faith attracts God and caused Him to zoom in! The Faith of the blind beggar caused The God who created the Heaven and Earth to stop in his track. (Luke 18:40).

What is exactly Faith?

Despite of your circumstances, Despite of your Financial problem, Despite of your lack of education, Despite of your lack of talents of skill, despite of your poor family background, etc. IT DOESN'T MATTER!

The moment you put your Faith in God, it opens up a whole new world and doors you have never seen.

You will be restored, you will be healed and you will overcome because your faith will cause God to move on your behalf!

Take courage and have Faith.

God Bless.

firstly, satan can do 1 right thing to make people do unlimited wrongdoings. satan is not like God, which do all things right. satan can choose not to do all things wrong. there is where the devils deceive you

secondly, we are not God, we judge what we see, as Christians, we judge by what we see too. its only the love of God that causes us to choose God as our master based on our faith. should or should not, we still judges others too. what would you choose if you are on your parents shoes? if a typical man choose over the good child, would you choose the child who doesnt behaves accordingly? or you will still choose to love both of them too? anyway your answer didnt solve my earlier question lar..

so in this case we can sin as much as we can as long as we repent? no... a murderer is definitely can't be compared with a righteous man. even God knows about it.

a murderer can be forgiven but i dont think so that God will prefers a murderer more than a righteous man. if i am wrong, plz enlighten me

Refer to my earlier post ... hmmm ... can't find it XD ... anymore I cut/paste

There are two different kinds of people: one kind does evil, and the other kind does good. According to good and evil, these two kinds of people are absolutely different. Yet in the matter of putting God aside and not giving God any place, they are absolutely the same. Just as those who do evil put God aside, so those who do good also put God aside. Just as those who do evil do not give God any room, so those who do good also do not give God any room. These two kinds of people behave differently-one does good and the other does evil; nevertheless, they have exactly the same kind of attitude toward God. Those who do evil give up the law, thereby rejecting God, and those who do good keep the law, thereby also rejecting God. The former forsake God by violating the law, while the latter forsake God by observing the law. Both groups of people have problems because of the law. The first group of people gives up God because they have broken the law, whereas the second group forsakes God because they consider that they have kept the law. Hence, we can see that both these conditions of rejecting God are related to the law.

GOD DESIRING US NEITHER TO DO EVIL NOR TO DO GOOD

Then what should we choose? Should we choose good or evil? Should we choose to break the law or to keep the law? On the surface, it seems that it is much better to keep the law than to break the law, because it appears that breaking the law alienates us from God while keeping the law might bring us closer to God. Thus, it seems that we should choose to do good. However, although doing good might appear to be a worthy goal, yet it is not the right goal, and in fact it is the wrong goal. Doing evil is an unworthy goal and the wrong goal as well. Therefore, both good and evil are wrong. Of course, God has absolutely no intention for us to do evil, but neither does He intend for us to do good. God's intention is neither for us to be responsible to do evil nor for us to be responsible to do good.

Those who sin and do evil, such as bandits, robbers, and fornicators, put God aside and do not care about God. If they were aware of God, they would be afraid to do evil things. The reason they dare to do evil things is that they do not acknowledge the existence of God; they have put God aside. Those who conduct themselves in an upright and proper manner are moral and good in others' eyes. They are often boastful, saying, "What are heaven and hell? Who is God and who is the devil? Such things do not exist! Everything depends on our conducting ourselves according to our conscience. We should do things according to proper reasoning. We should not do things that would hurt others, nor should we do things that would harm ourselves. We should take care of others as well as ourselves. It is good enough that we conduct ourselves in an upright way." People like this have good behavior, their words are trustworthy, and their character is good, but they do not acknowledge the existence of God. This is to be good. People who are good in this way are commendable but mistaken because their goal is incorrect.

MAN BEING CREATED TO CONTAIN GOD

In the beginning God created man neither to do good nor to do evil. Rather, God created man for His purpose. He wanted man to have fellowship with Him, to be filled with Him, to live in Him, and to be mingled with Him as one entity. Man was created for God as a vessel to contain God (Rom. 9:21, 23). This is similar to a glass being made as a vessel to contain water. It is wrong to put dirty things into the glass, but even if we put gold into it, it is still wrong. This is because the glass was made as a vessel to contain water, not other things.

Human beings were created neither to contain evil nor to contain good. We were created neither to be evil persons nor to be good persons. Then what kind of people should we be? How can a living person do neither evil nor good? Can anyone escape from good and evil? None of us can. A person who is without God cannot escape from good, evil, and death in his life. Only a person who has died does neither good nor evil.

BEING NEITHER GOOD MEN NOR EVIL MEN BUT GOD-MEN

In the garden of Eden there were two trees: the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:9). Concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the Bible says that he who eats of it shall surely die (v. 17). When someone eats of this tree, it may seem to be evil, but it is actually death, or it may seem to be good, but in reality it is still death. The issue of evil is death, and the issue of good is also death. These three-good, evil, and death-are inseparable. Then what is the tree of life in the middle of the garden? This tree of life is life itself. What man sees is life, what he eats is life, and the issue of his eating is also life. Who is this life? This life is God Himself.

Please remember that in the garden of Eden the first tree- the tree of life-is God Himself, and the second tree-the tree of the knowledge of good and evil-is good, evil, and death. People on earth who do not have God choose the second tree instead of the first. The result of choosing the second tree is good, evil, and death. They are good men, evil men, and eventually dead men. These three kinds of persons are all in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Then, as saved ones, are we good men, evil men, or dead men? Praise the Lord, we who have been saved have the life of God in us, so we are God-men.

However, is our real situation like this? Are we God-men in our daily living? This is a big problem. It is very difficult for us to be freed from the law in our human living. We are always turning back to the law, and the law is always following us. Even today, having become Christians, we still cannot easily break away from the law, and instead of living to God, we still live before the law to be people of the law. Although we have been saved and we have God in us, we do not live to God.

As human beings we were created for God Himself. We are vessels to contain God. We should not take good or evil into us; rather, we should take God into us. How can God be put into us? It is by means of the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures tell us clearly that when the Holy Spirit is in us, God is in us (1 John 3:24; 4:13; Rom. 8:9a, 11). What does God want us to do? God wants us to be dead to the law so that we may live to God. Before we were saved, we lived to good and evil; that is, we lived to death. Now that we are saved, we should start learning to live to God. This means that as vessels to contain God according to His purpose in creating man, we should live to God instead of living to the law. We should be neither good men nor evil men but God-men.

tldr but who r u to say what God's intentions are? All those god stuff rules are created by man. God never said anything and nobody knows if God really exists.

I can wake up tomorrow and tell the whole world God spoke to me say we should do this and that. Those who dont believe me is sin against god and shit like that.

Sounds familiar?? Thats what the whole bible stuff is about.

only we who are "naive" can see the contradictions and irony, those who have been "saved" see everything perfectly beautiful, even if there r flaws they r intended by God in his mysterious masterplan, hence unquestionable.

This post has been edited by hotjake: Mar 21 2012, 09:53 AM

Haha ... I take compliments for that .. Those have the divine life do have a change in their perspective that is according to the divine view instead of from our human view (naive..)

Err .... you have a sound mind right? You can discern what is conky or not ...?

For me, I read the Bible and experience God from it. What it reveals about His intention is too awesome. I didn't made anything up other than share what I enjoyed from it.

OOOoohhhh.. so now u r shoot me say I crazy cos I din agree wif your view on God?

Read bible and experience God? Something like when u read book and imagine yourself is the character in the story book? Can you share which passage in the bible that specifically says god doesnt want man to do good or bad, man created to contain god and other stuff you wrote?

think of it like this, God was the original Foreveralone guy who is perfect, that he is complete in every way. Before God created the universe there was nothing - no sun, no earth, no people, no good or evil, no pain - nothing but God who was, according to Christians, perfect. So if God was perfect and nothing but perfection existed, what motivated God to create the universe and thus bring imperfection into being? Was it because he was bored and wanted something to do? Was it because he was lonely and wanted someone to pray to him?

God created everything because of his love of man. this doesn't cut it for me, God could not love humans before he created them any more than a woman could love her children before she had conceived them. God's need to create indicates that he was dissatisfied with the fact that there were only one foreveralone around. oh and then there's this argument that He created spontaneously and without need or desire. However this would mean that the whole universe came into being without purpose or forethought? anyways, He created us, He made the rules of what is right and what is wrong. Our perception of right and wrong does not measure up to His. It is not for us to judge, just accept lo... haiz...


just my opinion. can shoot me, no problem

This post has been edited by hotjake: Mar 21 2012, 10:14 AM

Not sure whether are you serious with that statement above ... nothing that I say about saying you are crazy if you don't agreed with mine ...
Apologies if I imply that. I only meant, based on your statements above, that you have sound mind to discern. My only implication is that I have a sound mind when I choose to believe in the Bible.

Actually, if you refer to what I posted .. there are some references:

In the garden of Eden there were two trees: the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:9). Concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the Bible says that he who eats of it shall surely die (v. 17 or Gen. 2:17).

After God created man, God did not say that man needed life or salvation. Neither did He say that man needed to love and obey God. Nor did He say that man needed to be humble or to be peaceable. After God created man, He put man in a garden, and He placed man before the tree of life, telling him in effect, "Eat! Eat! Eat!" XD

In Romans 9:21 and 23 Paul told us that God's creation of man was just to produce, to create, man as a vessel to fulfill God's purpose. God created man as a vessel to contain Him just as a potter makes a vessel of clay to contain something. Second Corinthians 4:7 also conveys this thought. The apostle Paul considered himself as an earthen vessel to contain a treasure, and the treasure is just Christ, the very God. Thus, in Romans 9 and 2 Corinthians 4 we can see a clear revelation that man was created by God to be His vessel to contain Him. In God's thought man is just a container, not a means or an instrument. Unless man can be a vessel, a container to contain God and to be filled up with God, man can never be used by God to fulfill His purpose.

When the Lord Jesus came, He said, "I am the bread of life" (John 6:35a), and "he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me" (v. 57b). The tree of life is seen in Genesis 2 at the beginning of the Bible and in Revelation 2 and 22 at the end of the Bible. This tells us that the whole concept in the Bible is that man has to eat God, to take God in organically, and to assimilate God metabolically that God may become his "fibers," his "tissue," his very being. The food that we eat eventually becomes our being.

Christ wants to be man’s life:

“Jesus said...I am...the life”—14:6.
“I [Christ] have come that they [men] may have life and may have it abundantly”—10:10.
“He who has the Son has the life”—1 John 5:12a.
The verses above reveal that man’s life being an empty vessel must have Christ as its content.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Mar 21 2012, 10:22 AM

Wintersun,

We are all God's children by Faith. This gives us access to his will. what he wants, what pleases him, etc. I can testify this along with all believers.
It profits not a man to create any rule to obey God if it's indeed man own creation. The words in the Bible speaks about God and profit not any Man's own glory.
It is not those who don't believe in you that sin against God but those who don't believe in God.

That is because we believe God exist and that also points to God's sovereignty.
Same thing when you stand in front of Agong, your behavior towards him in front all all his subjects, with the prime minister, ministers, VIPs and his royal guards.



God did say repent from all Sin. That alone speaks to do good and avoid evil.

lol, God is not forever alone. Who created that assumption?