st.valentine Catholic church, Sabah here
ohya.. Hi..ayam Christian..lol

erm...well...i was born as a catholic....well we are all believe in Jesus...so i think its better we not talk about the difference....

This is the biggest reason why I failed to have my prayer answered last time. Sharing this here is to remind all brother & sister here never forget our foundation for God answering our prayer.


*I have this quotes from random site, found it useful & wish to share it with you all. I know most of you knows this but no harm reading it again.

Hi brother! Welcome aboard! wow.. u from Sabah! that's long way to travel from KL here

dear sister,

I am a fellow brother (same denomination as you) but really, religion is over-rated nowadays.

You came here, whether by accident or curiosity. We know that to God nothing is coincidence, we Christians should believe that.
well, having said that, more of a providence.

Psalm 33:11
But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever,
the purposes of his heart through all generations.

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:9)


'You have made us for yourself, and our heart is restless until it rests in you' - St Augustine

It is natural for us to seek God. He has placed in our hearts a longing to seek and find Him (since the ancient times, man tried, but kind of failed - animism to egyptian gods, and then revelation to Abraham)
So you see, all of our striving for truth and happiness is ultimately a search for the one who supports us absolutely, satisfies us absolutely and emplys us absolutely in his service.

We are not completely ourselves until he has found God.

We call this longing for God -> Religion.


as for

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Do not be afraid of bros n sis here, we try to help you the way we can, to realise that you do not Fear God out of Love, nor do you come to love God out of fear

This post has been edited by Jedi: Dec 4 2012, 10:25 PM

Welcome.

lol. Xtians we are.

too late, we already have.

it came to the point of talking about lizardman.

lol.

Oh yeah I promised to give you a devotion on this.

erm..not entirely complete.

give me some time.

will post it up once I have all that I need to say.

Dear Bro, Thank you for the sharing!

to make you remember easily this problem, Ill share how I do it

Since prayer can be worship, petition, thanksgiving, intercession (for Catholics, and lets not start again on this )

Petition to God can only have 3 variants of answer

a) Yes
b) No
c) Not Yet

Not yet? Maybe it does not suit you? Maybe He has a better plan for you?



Give thanks to Him always in every prayer
It helps us grow in spirit, it should, and not to deter away from Him.

I remembered once during Christian Student Fellowship, an african girl from Botswana shared:
When God says, ' Let there be Light ' and light it was.
What God says count, not the other way round. We should not demand something and make him secondary.

Lastly, sharing my favourite quotes:

If we are in trouble, always say not: Lord please I need this this and that that if not I cannot ----

Rather:

Thy will be done. Luke 1:38

^ Who says Mary is only a child bearer of God. She is the greatest example of humility and obedience for a human being. (Christ is both God and Man, so Hes exception). Even archangel Gabriel said: Hail Mary full of Grace - not worshiping her, but honouring her!

Prayer is the oxygen of our soul - St Padre Pio

so Prayer always works, but God's answers? always to our GOOD.


and May the Lord bless you always! Peace be with you!

Actually, the original Thayer strong definition of Full of Grace is Highly Favoured.

Only God has full of grace.

I beg to disagree but I do not wish to start a discussion non-general Christian consensus topic (might end up in flame war )

I will put a short concise one though regarding why we have this differences exist

from my discussion with the jihadist defender of Christendom *you know who*

General Protestant consensus:

The Latin Vulgate is the Latin translation of the Bible done by St. Jerome in the fourth century. It is here in Luke 1:28 that is found the unfortunate Latin translation which says "ave gratia plena "Hail full of grace.'" Remember, the New Testament was written in Greek, not Latin, but the Roman Church has derived its doctrine from the Latin translation, not the Greek original. Therefore, it constructed its doctrine on a false translation. Of course, it cannot correct itself since so much is invested in the worship, adoration, and prayer to Mary in the Roman Catholic Church and to recant of this false teaching would greatly lessen its credibility. Unfortunately, this means that millions of Catholics will continue to look to Mary for help, not Christ who is truly full of grace.

What does the Greek say here for "highly favored one? It is the single Greek word kexaritomena and means highly favored, make accepted, make graceful, etc. It does not mean "full of grace" which is "plaras karitos" (plaras = full and karitos = Grace) in the Greek.
•5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb.; Str 5487; TDNT 9.372—LN 88.66 show kindness graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6); as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored.”1
•5487 χαριτόω [charitoo /khar·ee·to·o/] v. From 5485; TDNT 9:372; TDNTA 1298; GK 5923; Two occurrences; AV translates as “be highly favoured” once, and “make accepted” once. 1 to make graceful. 1a charming, lovely, agreeable. 2 to peruse with grace, compass with favour. 3 to honour with blessings.

General Catholic consensus:

The Koine Greek used at the time is different from modern Greek. It is a much more precise language than English. The words used of Jesus in John 1 are Pleres Charis. Pleres means "full" or "lacking nothing" (and is applied also to "truth"). Charis simply means "Grace".

The word used of Mary in Luke 1 is Kecharitomene. It is a complex participle. The root of this word is Charis, meaning Grace. The prefix 'Ke' means that the grace was already perfectly present before the angel appeared. The suffix 'mene' means that Mary was the recipient of this grace. In other words Kecharitomene shows that Mary was a recipient of a fullness of Grace. The grace was given to her. The perfect tense indicates that this filling with grace is a continuous event that was ongoing before the angel appeared.

The translations which state "highly favoured" instead of "full of grace", are largely motivated by a doctrinal desire to downgrade Mary. The first version to use this translation was the King James Version, where the translators noted that "highly favoured" was used instead of "full of Grace" in order to show that Mary was not a source of grace. (Tyndale's version on which the KJV was largely based, used full of Grace).

Most protestant bibles followed the KJV, (along with some modern Catholic ones)
Now, in modern Greek, which Protestants used to interpret these verses, Charis can be translated simply as "favour". So "Highly-favoured" could be a conceivable translation - but this would only be acceptable if the word "favour" were used as a translation for "Charis" everywhere else in the New Testament. But THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN. Even those bibles which translate "Charis" as Favour" when referring to Mary, translate it as "Grace" everywhere else. This is highly misleading because in the New Testament the word "Grace" has a particular meaning distinct from "Favour".

In the New Testament "Grace" is a gift of God that saves from sin and its effects. So translating the word any differently is wrong. The correct translation is rightfully "Full of Grace".

and Rightly so,

Into a virgin’s soul, in like manner, must be introduced that Word of God which was to raise the fabric of life; so that what had been reduced to ruin by this sex might be the selfsame sex be recovered to salvation. - Tertullian, early Christian thinker

To be a perfect vessel to carry God's only Son, thou has to be free from Original Sin. and kecharitomene this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

even Luther honours Mary, it was the subsequent John Calvin , Zwingli buddies who downgrades her grace. (Honour, not worship)

nvm.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Dec 4 2012, 11:59 PM

did you read the catholic consensus?

bro, I dont want to further this discussion. It is never-ending and head-spinning. and I was smiling today despite beating the first blizzard coming in winter, that you helped me much for upholding my faith.

We will find out in heaven anyway, all answers. and whether, Mary is Mother of God for real or not.

Peace be with us all.

nvm then.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Dec 4 2012, 11:59 PM

OK bro, lets discuss

Beforehand I wish to ask for any forgiveness of ignorance or offence if I have any, and you may correct me on any point for you are wiser than I am, or should I say, more senior than I am

in Romans 3:10….Paul was quoting Psalm 14 (“It is written”), which is referring to atheists.
In the book of Luke, there are at least 3 people in the New Testament who are righteous – Simeon (Luke 2), Elizabeth, and Zechariah (Luke 1).

I am saying the Church did not upgrade her, but is giving her what is due and is very biblical.

1
Luke 1:48 has it. “All generations to come shall call me blessed”

We dont have Blessed Abraham, Blessed Moses, Blessed John or Blessed Paul do we? They are saints like us, but they are in heaven.

2
from RCC view the word Kecharitomene : to put it, she was prevented from falling into the snake pit of sin by the grace of God, rather than being saved from it after sinning, like the rest of us.

3
Gen 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

Since Eve was in compliance with the devil, and not at enmity, THE WOMAN could not refer to her, but rather a future “WOMAN” who would have enmity (lifelong hatred) with Satan.

and I have explained to the strong-willed defender of Christendom who agrees with me, and I will share again for all bros n sis here:


Fra Angelico, Anunciation

on the left, you see Adam, Eve and God. They walked in shame, because they have been disobedient by eating the forbidden fruit from Garden of Eden. Grace was lost (spiritual death), when serpent seduced them and said they will not die eating the fruit (it was not physical death)

on the right, Anunciation of Mary , archangel Gabriel sent the message to Mary that she will conceive Jesus through the Holy Spirit, she replied : Your will be done. - complete obedience.

Disobedience vs obedience to God - One listen to devil, one to angel
Fall of Men vs Salvation of Men
he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

Women hate snakes and creeping creatures; they have a natural, instilled fear of them--thus the term "enmity" (hatred)
Her offspring---Down into the ages, Eve had a child, and that child had a child, and after many generations, Christ was born.
Jesus crushed satan's head when He came to save the people and set us free.
Satan striked at Jesus' heel like a snake, Jesus still had the victory.
Even in Jesus death, although it seemed that satan had victory as Jesus hung on the cross in humilation and total pain, our sins laid upon our King.....the snake thought he'd won.

this is what he wrote:


this is what I would think but I did not write to him:

Most biblical scholars believe that “the seed” is Jesus Christ”, and that He bruised satan’s head at the place of the skull, called Golgotha, at the crucifixion. If that is so, then Catholics believe that “THE WOMAN” could only refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary, who gave birth to Jesus, her “seed”. This is why Jesus always referred to Mary as “Woman”, rather than Mom or Mother. Mary can be viewed as a parallel to the Tabernacle of the Lord, as constructed by Moses in Exodus 40 and Luke Chapter 1.

In Exodus 40:34-35, when the Tabernacle was completed, we learn the following:

"Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting, because the cloud overshadowed it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

" In Luke 1:35, the Bible says:

"And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you,and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;therefore the child to be born will be called holy,the Son of God."

In both cases, the word used to "overshadow" is "episkiasei".

Catholics also view Mary as the New Testament Ark of the Covenant.

The Old Testament Ark of the Covenant contained three items – The Word of God in the form of stone tablets (the 10 Commandments), manna (bread) from Heaven, and the rod of Aaron that resprouted and came back to life (Hebrews 9:4).

Just so, the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary contained Jesus Christ – The living Word of God (John 1:1), the bread of life (John 6:48), and the ruler with a rod of iron who also came back to life (Rev.12:5).

At the Annunciation of Mary, Gabriel told her that the power of the most high would “overshadow” her (Luke 1:35). The term “overshadow” is significant, because it was also used to refer to the cherubim “overshadowing” the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant (Hebrews 9:5). The Ark was made with pure gold (Exodus 4), and was very holy, which parallels the Catholic teaching that Mary is also pure and holy. The Ark of the Covenant was so holy, that no ordinary person could even touch it. Uzzah reached out to steady it, and was instantly struck dead (2 Samuel 6:7).

There are many parallels between the mention of the Ark in 2 Samuel 6 and Mary in Luke 1:

David heads to the hills of Judah in 2 Samuel 6:2-3; Mary heads to the hills of Judah in Luke 1:39.
David dances for joy in front of the Ark (2 Samuel 6:14); the unborn fetus John the Baptist leaps for joy in Elizabeth’s womb at the sound of Mary’s voice (1 Luke 44).
David says “How can the Ark come to me”? (2 Samuel 6:9); Elizabeth says, “How is this that the Mother of my Lord has come to me”? (1 Luke 43).
David and the Ark stayed for 3 months (2 Samuel 6:11); Mary stayed for 3 months (1 Luke 56).

So if Jesus is “The Word Made Flesh”, then Mary is “The Ark Made Flesh”.
All of these parallels between the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament and the Blessed Virgin Mary in the New Testament is a branch of scripture study known as “typology”.

In other words, events and people in the New Testament are prefigured by events and people in the Old Testament.

Give bro an example of another typology:
Revelation 12 and Genesis 37:9.

Mary’s Magnificat in Luke 1 is very similar to Hannah’s canticle in 1 Samuel 2. - will not discuss it here

In Genesis, Joseph says,
"Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me."

In Revelation 12:1, the scripture reads,
“And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”

The obvious parallel is that the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars in Joseph’s dream represent his 11 brothers and all of Israel, while THE WOMAN in Revelation is adorned with these symbols of Israel. So who is the “WOMAN”? The first clue is the term “a great portent”.

In Isaiah 7:14 in the Old Testament, it says,
“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.”

so to fairly say:
The great portent of Revelation and the sign of Isaiah are one and the same – A Virgin who will give birth to the leader of Israel, Jesus Christ. That woman is the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The writer of the book of Revelation, St. John the Apostle, was given by Jesus on the cross to Mary as her son, and Mary was given to John as his Mother, in John 19:26-27.

This means that John knew Mary better than anyone, except for Jesus, and he is trying to tell us all something about her status in heaven.

In the preceding verse, Revelation 11:19, John tells us that he sees the Ark of the Covenant.

In the next verse, Revelation 12:1, he describes the Ark for us as “A woman clothed with the sun”, a term that could only mean the immaculately conceived Virgin Mary.

The rest of Revelation 12 talks about the enmity prefigured in Genesis 3:15 between the devil and THE WOMAN, and how satan can’t get to her.

In Revelation 12:17, it says that we are her children if we follow the commandments and bear testimony to Jesus.

4:

Luke 6:43 says " For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit."
Elizabeth tells Mary in Luke 1:42: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb''

So that means that since Jesus is the fruit of Mary, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit, then it logically follows that Mary, while not divine, is certainly free from sin, like her Son.
Otherwise, she could not have the pure and sinless God of the universe inside of her.

5:

In the Old Testament, the Kings' mother was the queen. The Kings in the Old Testament, like Solomon, had so many wives that it would have been hard to choose one over the other, so the mother of the King became the Queen. Bathsheeba, David's wife, was King Solomon's Queen Mother.
In 1 Kings 2, Adonijah approaches the Queen Bathsheeba to ask her to intercede on his behalf with King Solomon.
When she asks her son for Adonijah's favor, King Solomon says "Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you".

This is a parallel to the New Testament, John 2, when Mary intercedes on behalf of the wedding couple to Jesus about the wine that has run out.
Solomon didn't refuse his Queen Mother in the Old Testament, and Jesus didn't refuse his Queen Mother in the New Testament. hey, Jesus even performed his first miracle here. (Is this not intercession even? and yes it speeds up the process, if not Jesus wont turn water into wine)
Neither does he refuse her now.


Bro, sorry for very TLDR

and bro, I thank you for asking me.

You know, Dec 8 we RCC celebrate Immaculate Conception, where Mary is conceived without original sin.

As I just said, nothing is coincidence. To me, maybe Mother Mary wants me to help you realise at least this: She loves you very much and cares for you, and wants you to understand her better. Through God's grace, with God's permission, I am just trying to help bro understand why we honour Mary highly. It is up to bro to read as fairytale because its not biblical, or to read with wisdom of Holy Spirit.

when Jesus said: Behold, this is your Mother, He means it.

Just a sharing: ”Let those who think that the Church pays too much attention to Mary give heed to the fact that Our Blessed Lord Himself gave ten times as much of His life to her as He gave to His Apostles.”
Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

10x, 30 years for Mary, 3 years for Mankind

Let it be so, from my part.

Ah then

Romans 3:10 has problems already because it says there not even one.

and

Woman does produce seed, only Male.

One more thing, When Jesus handed Mary over to John, saying here is your mother and she did refer her as Woman rather than Mother.

Doesn't this indicate Jesus cut off the ties as her Mother?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Dec 5 2012, 12:53 AM

one more thing, I just got this.

talking about Simeon, Elizabeth, and Zechariah.

They diligently and probably religiously practice the OT Law but that doesn't mean they are without sin. IMO they are of no exception because there are others as well who practise OT law.

Back in the old testament people get clean by sacrificial killing of animals, in this sense they can be temporary clean but it can never wash away their sins. The stain of sin is still very much in them.

And they have to be very careful after being cleansed not to break any of the law because if just one law is broken, they are stained within that whole period.

It is done yearly. So every year as long as they do this, they can pronounced as temporary clean.

In this sense the word righteous refer as such.

It is not the complete righteous sense mention in Romans 3:10.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Dec 5 2012, 01:10 AM

what I said:


Exactly, Why Woman? Jesus himself indicates that Mary is the prophetic "woman" or "New Eve" of Genesis 3:15 when he refers to his mother as "woman" in John 2:4 and 19:26. Moreover, St. John refers to Mary as "woman" eight times in Revelation 12.


and I forgot to add:
No one said Mary not needed Jesus for her salvation
Mary herself said, ‘My soul rejoices in God my savior’ in Luke 1:47. She clearly understood herself to be a sinner if she admits to needing a savior.


She was given the grace to be "saved" completely from sin so that she never committed even the slightest transgression. Protestants tend to emphasize God’s "salvation" almost exclusively to the forgiveness of sins actually committed. However, Sacred Scripture indicates that salvation can also refer to man being protected from sinning before the fact:

Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. (Jude 24-25)



pertaining the Romans 3 Contradiction:

But what about "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23) and "if any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him" (1 John 1:8)? Wouldn’t "all" and "any man" include Mary? On the surface, this sounds reasonable. But this way of thinking carried to its logical conclusion would list Jesus Christ in the company of sinners as well. No faithful Christian would dare say that. Yet no Christian can deny the plain texts of Scripture declaring Christ’s full humanity either. Thus, to take 1 John 1:8 in a strict, literal sense would apply "any man" to Jesus as well.

The truth is Jesus Christ was an exception to Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8. And the Bible tells us he was in Hebrews 4:15: "Christ was tempted in all points even as we are and yet he was without sin." The question now is: Are there any other exceptions to this rule? Yes—millions of them.

Both Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:9 deal with personal rather than original sin. (Romans 5 deals with original sin.) And there are two exceptions to that general biblical norm as well.

To understand it again, let us look at it


Original sin is not something we do; it is something we’ve inherited.
Romans chapter three deals with personal sin because it speaks of sins committed by the sinner.
With this in mind, consider this: Has a baby in the womb or a child of two ever committed a personal sin? No.
To sin a person has to know the act he is about to perform is sinful while freely engaging his will in carrying it out.
Without the proper faculties to enable them to sin, children before the age of accountability and anyone who does not have the use of his intellect and will cannot sin.

So, there are and have been millions of exceptions to Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8.

Still, how do we know Mary is an exception to the norm of "all have sinned?" And more specifically, is there biblical support for this claim? Yes, there is much biblical support.

I gave them in the previous posts.

I can agree Mary is very much the loving type but still, I am convicted within, she's not as how you paint her to be divine, and as mother of God.

But rather convicted the opposite. I see her as normal as other Man and Woman of God.

And I believe it is human reasoning to say that To be a perfect vessel to carry God's only Son, She has to be free from Original Sin.

It contradicts Romans 3:10.

If you study the genealogy of Jesus, there's 4 Woman mention in the Bible.

To say that Mary needs to be free from the original Sin, the other genealogies have follow.

Because to say that She's an exception, then Romans 3:10 & Romans 3:23 are already flawed and not the truth and one can easily in turn explain, Jesus can be an exception too because He didn't came through the seed of Joseph.

The virgin birth cuts him for the need for a perfect vessel free of sin.

It is God's own seed.

It's contradiction bro. She cannot be both.