Hey all, I was just wondering if there is really a big difference in getting a dedicated CD player like NAD, CA or Marantz (and etc..) to play your CDs (let's assume we take normal RM50-RM100 non-SACDs) versus using a RM300 DVD plater or maybe a Blu-Ray player like the Dune range?

Can anyone share their experiences / technical reviews perhaps?

I am very curious what the audiophiles have to say. To me, there is a very audible difference when I play my cd thru BD/DVD player compare to my NAD cdp. I believe a dedicated cdp does a much better job in digital to analogue section. Then again, there is a more complete Bluray player like the Oppo-86SE which has on board quality DAC to reproduce refine cd sound. The downside is very expensive.

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Added on December 17, 2010, 9:29 amSori typo error, should be Oppo 83SE







This post has been edited by mikapoh: Dec 17 2010, 09:29 AM

When it comes to music listening or CD playback, I read a lot about DAC, which essentially converts digital > analog (conversion of binary 1s and 0s I would assume). Myself, I am running a Prime, and I dont have a dedicated CD player of my own to compare, and I am reluctant to purchase one. Be it Oppo or Dune, I am sure there are on-board DACs as well.

1. Could it be that the DACs for dedicated CD players are built / tuned specifically to decode stereo music, which makes its better than DVD/Blu Ray players, which might be optimized for 5.1 / 7.1?

2. Here is where I am a bit confused. Once we play a CD, we will be sending analog signals > amp > speakers, right? Assuming, I am connecting my Dune Prime to my amp via a HDMI cable, can this analog signals pass though the HDMI? Or do I need two add in another bridge specifically for analog music listening?

Sorry for the noob-ish questions!

Dune sucks on analog audio, so is my Oppo BDP-80.
So I send them using HDMI and let my Onkyo doing the DAC thing.
I had a CA 640C b4 and it's very good sound and a great bargain for the price. I have never heard the Oppo-83SE but it should come very close to dedicated CDP.

so, if you have very good pre-amp for the DAC, a normal BD player send the signal using HDMI will do (the sound will be more digital compared to analog) but can save lots of $$$ compared to buying a dedicated CDP (which I am doing it now)

A cheap MPV like Avanza can get you from A to B just like a BMW 7 series. Likewise, a multi-player like the RM300 DVD/CD player can play back the same CD like a dedicated Krell CD Player that cost a bomb. It all boils down to how many money you wanted to spend and what sort of quality you wanted.

Oh...one more thing. More expensive does not automatically mean it's better. When it comes to dedicated CD Player like Krell or Marantz etc, equipment matching is the biggest key to good sound. A well matched cheapo setup can sound better than a mega-buck setup.

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 17 2010, 10:20 AM

When you say you send them to your Onkro to do the DAC, do you mean you set the player to send Bitstream? I have set it to send via Bitstream already.

The reason why I started this topic is becase I have recently acquired a pair of used speakers. They sounded amazing to my peasant/newbie ears. The mids especially was pretty good. The bass/low freq was not lacking either! However, when I brought them back home, jack them to my Yammy 663, it was no where near as good as when I auditioned it I must note however, when I auditioned them, they were using one of those NAD pre-amps and a dedicated CD player, which would proabably cost tons more than what I can afford.

So I was just wondering, what makes the difference here? Would it be due to the CDP? Would it be due the amp?

What you just described is what I said earlier i.e., system matching (the matching of specific CD player with specific amplifier with specific wiring with specific speaker in a specific room) is the KEY to good sound. And an old or real cheapo setup can sound much better than a poorly matched brand new modern mega buck setup.

Noted. But it is pretty hard to lug around all the equipment that you have (cables / amps) whener you go and audition something right? Or do all of you sifus do that >_<.

My base asumption when I audition, would be to see the speakers (example) potential I guess. In this case, I know that these pair of speakers I bought can be that amazing, so I will try my best-est with the current stuff that I have, what can I do and how much I can spend (capped by my limits) to make it so.

If I cannot achive it, at least I know I tried, and in the process, learn something!

An analysis IMHO of price vs performance of audiovisual equipment:-

from RM500 change to RM2000 equipment --> the performance is very big and can differentiate very easily

RM2000 --> RM10000, still can detect but not as obvious as the 500 to 2k jump

RM10000 --> RM100k, u might get only 10-15% of improved performance for a 1000% different in price

TS, all the while, I also have the same question. All the while I wanted 5.1 surround with AVR but now, setup totally changed as I am a beginner stereophiler now - more towards music.

I am now running on Cambridge Audio Integ. Amp + PSB Alpha B1 speakers + Velodyne Impact Mini and I cant play good music unless I use CD player. I was thinking to get a Pana BD60 player until recently I did few testing with the help of my boss as he could supply me some of his equipment for testing.

I've tested the following items and do notice my remarks in bracket.

Tested with:
- Older Sony Discman (sound is not bad, acceptable)
- Older Samsung DVD player with HDMI ( unbearable quality )
- Shangling dedicated CD player with BurrBrown DAC (sounds solid and fuller)
- CA DacMagic with Popcorn hour A200 (digital music - sounds far more perfect than the Shangling dedicated CD player... can u believe that???)

Those are the tests conducted with Beginner setup, and due to this, I am cancelling my purchase of CD player because I can play lossless format like WAV, FLAC,.... better than CD player.

All tests conducted with a simple Denon Master Audiophile CD.

What really impresses me was that the DacMagic enabled me to hear the sound that cannot be produced by other items and yet, the songs are ripped to WAV and not from CD!

Can Wolfson DAC be so good? Only my ears can tell me.

What speakers were they? The most probable cause of the difference might have been the amp and the room. Speaker placement is very important for 2 channel stereo. The 663 is low powered and is probably not driving ur speakers anyway.

While I agree with what the rest have said, 2 channel stereo is sampled at 44.1kHz and is normally very centric to the kind of music that the CD is. The reproduction chain is important to get the best out of the CD. Believe it or not, a good CDP whether as a transport only and an outboard proper DAC or a CDP with good DACs make a difference. That said, a dedicated pre/power or integrated amp with a CDP will mostly always sound better than than an AVR when it comes to reproducing 2 channel stereo. The AVR is a multi functional amp that has a lot of things going on. The pre and the multiple power amp sections are all housed together in one chassis. Jitter is also something that comes into play. Anyway, this is a much debated area. In my opinion, 2 channel stereo sounds best using a properly designed amp. The Yammy 663 is an entry level AVR.

Those certified Hi Fi enthusiast would do just that, lugging equipments around to the dealer, to friend's house or even stranger who are also Hi Fi enthusiast. When you enter into their world, crazy thing happens. Stranger open their house and yours to them all in the name of Hi Fi. To discuss, to hook up different equipments just to see how they sounded because system matching is as much a science as a art. In other word, you may already know the basic sonic character of several equipment/brand but you can only know for sure when they are physically connected up.

So if you are really serious about Hi Fi, try to learn the basic sonic character of the equipment you have on hand and of those you intend to buy in future. That way, you will have a pretty good guess as to how they will sound together but I am afraid you can only know for sure when they are actually being hooked up in your house. It must be in your house because different room have different acoustic behavior so the exact same setup can sounded different in different house. So are you sure you want to go down that slippery road of sound Ethiopia or more white hair?

You already mentioned they are using dedicated CDP & NAD pre-amp. These are hifi gadgets and obviously are designed & manufactured to bring sonic performance in music listening. EVEN you pair them with any other established hifi brands be it like Audiolab, Mission, CA, Marantz etc. I bet they are going to beat your HT set up hands down as far as pure music listening is concerned.

IMO, even a blind matching between those hifi equipments can out-performed an AV set-up for music listening. Afterall, they are meant for this purpose. Thats why you can;t get anything closer to sound in the shop. Trust me, if you hook up a dedicated cdp you will certainly feel a leap in performance. The most obvious is the vocal department.

Different people likes different sound. For an extreme example, a Ah Beng car fulled with car stereo equipment with treble & bass turned to the MAX is Ethiopia to them whereas a Hi Fi enthusiast would vomit blood.

More down to earth, what sounded great for movies with bullet flying around and explosion may not sound great when playing back vocal singing. Generally speaking, those into Hi Fi sound reproduction goes for equipments that sounded as natural or as close to the original recording as possible. Nothing added and nothing deleted. As a general rule, it is very difficult to get a setup that's good for movies and vocal at the same time.

So you have to first decide what sort of sound/purpose you wanted before you can go out and develop your Hi Fi hobby. The best way is to go around listening to other people's setup or attend KL AV show (around July of every year) to first determine what you wanted.

My 2 sen.

I agree.

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Added on December 17, 2010, 11:16 amI sense that bookshelfs make good front speakers for movies as they are more detailed. I've tested this together with my friend who has entry level Yamaha floorstanders (in Transformers 2).

This post has been edited by RayKazansky: Dec 17 2010, 11:16 AM

Agree on the first bracket! Upgraded from PC speakers >_<.

This is interesting. You are saying that instead of a CDP, I could probably use a dedicated DAC to improve the sound, since I can use the BNP as the transport (learnt a new word today from anfield!). I am a bit confused here though. How do you make the connection when it comes to using the DacMagic with the Popcorn? Popcorn > ??? > DAC > ??? > Amp?

I recently acquired a set of Kef Q7s from a post in hifi4sale >_<. Since, you have mentioned something about "driving the speakers", how do you really know if an amp can or cannot drive a pair of speakers. I would have thought that we just need to ensure that the impedence = match, hence the speakers can be driven by the amp already?

I have tried moving the speakers all over my lving room already, they sounded slightly different, but only in terms of the bass, and that also only a bit, not much! I am not trying to achieve superb levels of sonic quality, just want to maximize what I have I guess.

Yeah, but I started this post to see, short of having dedicate hifi equipment, if there are other options.

I have been to one of the KL AV shows, and to be honest, I was a bit intimidated, because I don't know much about the lingo and jargons. All your comments are worth more than 2 cents!

I agreed. The main objective of hifi is to reproduce the most neutral and purest sound as close as to the studio recording. Those well-known brands are designed to gear towards this objective. A receiver with a DSP on board will certainly defeat this purpose. Another cheapo option is to use "PURE DIRECT" feature in the receiver which can by-pass the DSP for minimalist sound alternation. For Denon, even the front LCD display lights are dimmed completely to avoid unnecessary distortion to the signal.

But Pure Direct listening in Mid level AVR is much better than entry level avr due to its proper & better designed power amplification section.

You have strong nerve. A friend of mine left his jaw on the floor when he saw the RM1 million setup.

Correct, didn't know that dedicated DAC is so good.
Popcorn<-via optical cable->DacMagic<-via RCA cable->Azur340SE<->Speakers+Sub

This tube-based DAC should be good too...(have not tested). Please refer below.
TubeMagic D1 DAC

Specs:
TubeMagic D1 DAC Specs

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Added on December 17, 2010, 11:41 amI already left my jaw @ friend's place with RM3xxk setup, no need RM 1Mil, haha.

This post has been edited by RayKazansky: Dec 17 2010, 11:41 AM

I've also start to fiddle with stereo and i find that playing FLAC was sufficient enough for me and my peasant setup. Put all the flac files in USB drive, connect it to my yammy 2065. And yes, i'm still deciding on which mode is better, Pure Direct or Straight Enhanced.