apparently that's hw he won nexgenius and nestea...
at least he won game 3 with a banshee build into polt...

^ that was an all-in btw
he is known to cheese/ all-in as said before...
even tastosis acknowledge this and rain has posted apologise for his play...

considering no expansion and the amount of scv?
rain's game 1 vs MC jz now is a timing push which is all-in-ish...
day9 define all-in as there's no possible transition after that...
with the amount of commitment to that push, its no surprised...

1 bunker is enuff if he placed it well enuff "

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Dec 18 2010, 07:16 PM

yup sportmanship...
but more like a BO win for MC in the last game...
4 gate vs blue flame hellion...

"if i terran i would win 3 times...i won as toss cause i am so good..." - oGsMC

he is the BM king...
his BM during GomClanwar is so epic trolling...

hw did he transition if his push failed?
i dun see that...
he didnt start his expo at all (or even break the back rocks in fact) during the whole containment...
after that failed, he followed with a 2nd all-in attack...

sure u have mule mining but look at his mineral patch, they are almost dried up with no expo starting...
he can transition out of it but it would be delaying the inevitable (thus the saying no possible transition)...
he knows it and went with a 2nd all-in...
if he expanded, MC would jz rolled him and he dun have the resource to keep production up...

heck when i am mined out, i can still transition into flying my old base OC there and mine but we all know when u do that, the game is out of ur hand already thus 'no transition'...

i'm talking bout game1 for gsl3 finals - rain vs mc O.o
replying ur 2nd part...
didnt realize u are still on the nexgenius part lol...

polt build dun have tanks...
so its not a standard polt btw...

btw polt is pretty much an all-in build if u haven notice...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Dec 18 2010, 08:08 PM

He's still checking her out even after losing. What a trooper. (On December 18 2010 20:30 dokugami)

@ westley
our definition of all-ins are pretty different...
for u to pull that many workers together seemed to be an all-in as u are sacrificing ur economy...
just because terran have mules to recover, doesnt meant its nt an all-in since mule are only worth 280 minerals...

---

Added on December 18, 2010, 8:14 pmhow often do u see polt in high lvl tournaments bring scv along?
jinro doesn't in his MLG games...
my point is bringing scv along made it all-in as u are sacrificing ur economy...
if it failed, the toss is in the eco advantage and would roll u over...
simple as that...

sure u can expand and tech switch yadda yadda but the toss wit the eco advantage would kill u after that...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Dec 18 2010, 08:14 PM

do notice the term 'recover'
recover means that u are behind already...
13 scvs is too all-in for me...
mules are not permanent mind u...

i dun see 13scvs "
the most he pulled was 7 in game3 which is half of wut u are telling me...
13scvs = half of ur scv mining per base and u tell me its not all-in?

ps: think i've played enuff terran to know that 13scvs on 1 base is all-in enuff...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Dec 18 2010, 08:24 PM

maybe i worded it wrongly, when i mentioned that its not 13scvs...
game1 was only 3-4 scvs which is acceptable...
13 scvs is toooooooo all-in...
how often do u see ppl bothered mentioning terran bringing that low amount of scvs as all-in?

then why must rain made a public apology for being too all-in?
why was he flamed on playXP?
why was he constantly flamed on air...
why was constantly expected to all-in/ cheese every game...

7 scv is not half of ur mining force on 1 base compared to it 13...
u do realize that 13 is almost double of 7?

mule is the mechanic for terran to keep on par wit chrono/ larvae...
they are not meant to replace ur SCVs...
they do allow u to pull some scv and recover after that but how much can u recover off 1-base with 13scv pulled out?

the definition of allin = no transition according to day9...
u can transition well out of losing 7 scv, but not 13 scv...
1 scv cost as much as 1 marine...

try posting a thread on TL and said that pulling 13scv is not all-in...
and see wut response u get...

ps: as u said 1mule is around 6scv urself... so u would need 2 mule on 1 base to recover from 13scv... so can u have 2 mule on 1 base? then u tell me is it all-in or not...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Dec 18 2010, 08:36 PM

well that's my case...
ppl generally agree 13scv is all-in...
u are not prepared to post ur idea on TL that pulling 13scv is not all-in on TL...
i am prepare to do the same for my idea that it is an all-in...
it is an interesting discussion after all? why not?
maybe its time to grow up to accept a discussion instead of OMG i'm gonna lose the discussion so grow up!

if u keep producing scv for that timing push, wouldn't ur army be smaller?
then WHY IS IT A TIMING PUSH?
that is ur answer...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Dec 18 2010, 08:47 PM

to produce reinforcements?
since u need resource to continue ur reinforcements with marines etc...
else the other side would keep reinforcing and u'll made do wit what u have only (not to mention the wasted time for travelling over)

jz registered so need 3 days to post on TL...
will inform u when its done (or remind me as well >.<)

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Dec 18 2010, 08:51 PM

game 1 was ok wit the containment...
game 2 was good in terms of macro and positioning especially the guerilla warfare...
game 3 was good for the mind games rain pulled (he deserves credit for this)...
game 4 was jz a cheese... move along...
game 5 is a BO lost imho...

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Added on December 18, 2010, 8:56 pmthe performance per scv decreases drastically after 26 (+/- based on mineral spread)...
since 1 scv = 1 marine for cost, what would u be making?

timing pushes are meant to be the certain timing when ur opponent is vulnerable or when u reached a critical time like ur raven having energy...
not every attack when u jz mass up to a certain amount is a timing attack...
thus timing attacks have a really tight BO for u to get the optimum amount of army/ tech for that pus...
wutever workers u bring after that is just a temporary boost to ur army...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Dec 18 2010, 08:56 PM

mostly due to streamyx capping some international connection...
there's lots of threads and TM admitted that to the press as well...
for restreams it is working fine...

so let say u have 26-28 scvs in ur base off 4 production (since ideally 1 base support 4 constant production)...
so when u move out, u would have 13-15scv and 1 mule (280 over time though u would like to have 1 scan usually in case) mining while 13scv not mining while u are producing scv (1 scv at a time instead of the 50min for marine to reinforce)...
besides that, u would need to be making depot as well since ur production is still there while u are moving out...
while on the other side, his 26-28probes are mining and resources are spent on making units as he saw ur army coming...
thus ur food have more scv less army vs his less probe more army...
and its nt an all-in?

best case: u win downright
good case: u deal damage to him especially him losing quite a lot of probe and return back to expand etc
even case: u deal some damage to him with some to probes with both army dead
bad case: u deal no damage, even army trade as he reinforce and ur reinforcements are pulled back to def while him having more workers
worst case: his army totally decimate ur army and u have less worker, less army

so its not an all-in when u need to deal some damage just for it to be even?
This post has been edited by evofantasy: Dec 18 2010, 09:13 PM

u do realize ur army is smaller but ur tech is higher (PDD)?
that's how smaller army beat bigger army...
that is why it is a timing attack (look at wut i said, when u reach a critical mass/ or a key tech is obtained)...
its not always about the army size...
attacking with a smaller army is not all-in (i didnt said wut u said at the bolded quoted)...
bringing 13 scvs along for an attack is all-in...
simple as that...

if the toss would engage outside of his base to force a premature PDD and fall back using FF (the general solution to the polt build if the toss dun FE)...
so when that happen, what about ur 13scv in ur army?
push in without a PDD mana?
when that happen, u loose ur timing advantage (tech) and thus his larger army have the advantage...

let us redefine the argument which should be the focus not about how to build a timing attack etc...
"Is bringing 13scvs along for an attack a all-in?"
aeco: yes it is all-in
westley: no it is not all-in

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Dec 18 2010, 09:29 PM

hmm would u pm me ur argument so i can copy paste?
that way we can build 2 bases easier...
and i think we should move this discussion else where since its a GSL thread =p

and i still think that rain is horrible as a terran for GSL final...
worst terran in the finals...
hope to see macro based terrans more (maka especially)...
still wished that rain would have expo-ed during that containment and not stay 1 base soooooo long...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Dec 18 2010, 10:24 PM