Is that a fact or another one of your assumptions? He had issues with the French immigration.

Yes he's playing for a Ligue 3 side but once again you are missing the point which seems to be a rather common occurance. Fact is that unlike the past idiots they've send overseas, Titus has chosen to try to make it in the 'outside' world instead of being content with being a star in Selangor or whatever. If we really want to 'mengharumkan nama negara' or whatever, more Malaysian players should follow his example. What is the point in being attached to a German or French side only to want to come back to play for teams who struggle against Geylang United? Even Singapore has had an international export in Fandi Ahmad.

Titus was chosen by Le Harve's football academy unlike some other blokes the FAM sent over. He was captain of Villenoy's U-18 side and once finished as top scorer with 16 goals playing from the wing. How many Malaysian footballers have achieved even that? I've no doubt that he'll continue to develop and won't be the finished article until he's 25-26 by which time he'll be in his prime. I'm hoping that he'll one day realise his dream of playing for PSG. In stark contrast look at someone like Akmal Rizal who trained with Strasbourg. He to me was the most talented Malaysian forward since Dollah Salleh but instead of choosing to continue to train and play overseas where he could have reached his full potential, he chose instead to return to play for a local club, following local habits. Heck, we don't even have a proper diet regiment to begin with! No wonder he looks overweight.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Aug 4 2010, 02:13 PM

I did not credit the team but I didn't discredit them either. I didn't even comment on the match because I didn't watch it. In fact, I skirted the conversation on the game and chose instead to focus on the bigger picture. I'll be the first to admit that I'm no longer a fan of local football nor do I follow the national team anymore. Apparently to some, this makes me a glory hunter. What they fail to realise is the reason behind me not being a fan anymore. Unlike the days of the great Mokhtar Dahari, Soh Chin Aun, Santokh Singh and Arumugam, I don't like what our local football clubs represent anymore. I've always cited that I am a fan of Liverpool because of what the club represents and the values instilled in the club by Shankly. In my opinion, the local football scene is a cesspool of greed and corruption. It is being run by people who are more concerned with their own personal interests and until these people are removed, I don't see myself ever being a fan again. Therefore, forgive me for not throwing compliments around so easily because as I've reiterated before, I've seen too many false dawns before.



Domestic glory is overrated these days. The standard of the league is at a low and the most recent evidence for this is the 2010 AFC Cup in which Selangor finished in their group with a 1-1-4 record behind Sriwijaya of Indonesia and Binh Duong of Vietnam. In 2009, Johor finished bottom of their group with a 0-1-5 record scoring only 2 goals, whilst conceeding 12. Kedah fared slightly better finishing 2nd in their group ahead of Eastern and Hanoi respectively. However they got twatted 8-2 by Bin Duong in the last 16.

Keep in mind that this is the AFC Cup and not the AFC Champions League.

Ah sports politics in all it's glory.

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Added on August 4, 2010, 3:05 pmGood job on being invited, or did they have to qualify? If not, it'll at least be good exposure and they'll need more of it.

Any reason why it's in the kopitiam thread though? What I see is a bunch of posters labelling others for criticising Malaysian football without understanding why. I figure it's because they can't dispute the facts that have been raised on a more serious forum like this one. Reminds me of parliament.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Aug 4 2010, 03:05 PM

-deleted-

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Added on August 4, 2010, 5:04 pmWhat's WOLS?

For their sake, I hope some of them get spotted and are invited to train with bigger foreign clubs that can help them develop and realise their potentials. If they come back and the local state FAs 'adopt' them, I fear they may walk down the same path as Akmal Rizal and his lot.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Aug 4 2010, 05:04 PM

I'm referring to posters, not players or officials. Will go on to explain in the next pharagraph.



Fans these days are increasingly fickle. Their team plays well one week and suddenly they can take on Real Madrid. Lose the following week and then suddenly, even Shamrock Rovers are a better side. Some of us get criticised for being overly negative but it's a two way street. I've seen fans get overly excited. Want to celebrate a win, go ahead. There is not right or wrong in being optimistic or pessimistic. Seeing as my understanding of Asian football is apparently rather basic, I'll use Liverpool to to illustrate my point. After years of frustration, I've learned not to be overly optimistic when the media or even fans start to speak about a revival. Too often we've beat Man Utd only to lose against sides like Wigan. Am I happy when we beat Man Utd or Real Madrid? Darn right I am but I also know that more than likely, and judging from recent history, it could be misleading. It isn't about which players we bring in because it's been some time since we've played good consistent attacking football unlike in the 70's and 80's where we often played people off the park.

Accuse of of being some random fan who thinks the team can do nothing right if you will. I'll change my opinion when they achieve such results consistenly.



I'm sorry, when did I say friendlies were not important? Unless I'm mistaken, I'm implying that whilst playing high quality teams consistenly and with great frequency is important for the development of players especially younger ones, at the end of the day, it's about how you perform when it matters, during tournaments. Sure, winning friendlies against bigger sides is an achievement of sorts as well.



We've played these sides - Bahrain, UAE, Uzbekistan, Syria, Yemen, Jordan, China, Saudi Arabia and South Korea. Did they feature their first teams? If they did, then yes, I did move the goalpost on that one, my bad.



Once again, I'm not taking anything away from the team. It isn't as though I'm criticising them. If a pessimist, even when I support Liverpool, it's the way I am which should be obvious from the manner of my posts, not just in this thread, in the Liverpool one as well. You appear to be rather familiar with the domestic scene. To you knowledge then, what is being done differently this time round to ensure that this team doesn't go to the dogs?



You are right which is why I keep reiterating that my beef isn't with this team but with Malaysian football as a whole.

Good luck to them then.



And I don't have such unrealistic expectations either.



In my opinion, friendlies against Premiership sides who are here to increase their commercial value, don't exactly risk life and limb when they play us. Whilst our players are obviously psyched and pumped to play against their idols, the opposition are looking not to get injured. In the last friendly against Man Utd, didn't Wayne Rooney overreact a little when a rash challenge came his way?



Thanks for the history lesson. Doomsayers? I call it as I see it and thus far, no one has been able to present facts like you have. I may be opinionated but I don't mind being proven wrong. It's stupid one liners like "Glory Hunter!", with no presentation of a counter argument that I can't stand.



So you agree that the FAM aren't doing enough in terms of marketing the domestic league then?



Assumptions? Aren't we all making assumptions? Yes, mine are negative.



If you want to keep the discussion in the context of that match in particular, then I've nothing to add.



Care to elaborate?



The same can be said of posters who judges another without reading all his posts. I've been accused by mancs for being non-objective but I've often given them credit where it's due or do you choose to focus only on posts when I don't? I don't condemn our team after a defeat neither do I pat them on the back when they win. In fact, I don't have any sort of affinity to our national football team anymore. You can criticise me for lacking patriotism which I obviously do but not for swinging my opinion on the team after 1 result.



Thanks for articulating this. What are FAMs targets for this team then? Let us know and perhaps us "doomsayers" will be more understanding.



Good initiatives, I agree. MyRAWK was formed for the very same reasons. I mentioned earlier how I see Kelantan moving forward provided they bring in people who understand their vision. I do know of KAFA and see what they are doing. Perhaps the same should be done for each and every domestic team, instead of depending solely on the State to contribute to salaries and wages.



Once again, I have to be honest to say that I don't care for local football anymore mainly due to the apparent misconceptions I have of it. Those who do care, should. The way you come across, it sounds like you do, am I right?



You mean you disagree there is any corruption in our league? Ok let me make and assumption then. It's prevelant almost everywhere else in the country, so yes, I'm assuming it has found it's way into our football. I shared before the story of a friend who used to play for Negeri Sembilan. I've also shared before a discussion I had with a former sports journalist. Am I going to PM you, someone whom I've never met, risking incriminating these people? Nope. It's not worth winning an argument. Let's just say you win this one then.





Thought you disagreed that our league was corrupt or do you only disagree that corruption exists post 1994?



No because I'm just some dumb redkneck incapable of rational thought. Don't be presumptious. Just because you choose to celebrate the small achievements whilst I would rather wait for a collection of achievements doesn't make you better.



You are right which is why I continued to support LFC during our slump. If you're insinuating that I don't understand what you're trying to say here, then you could not be more wrong. Football represents something, and I just don't like what ours does.



This is a matter of discussion for the "Real World Issues" forum and not this one.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Aug 5 2010, 01:34 PM

Any match reviews?

Well I'm no expert but logic tells me that since this is a pretty big achievement for the team, the FAM or whoever it is that manages the team should have arranged for a journalist to travel with the team to document their accounts there. Even if the print media don't see it as valuable content, their story could be told using online channels e.g. creating an FB fansite, blogs, etc.

If they really are serious about promoting football again, they need to look into various communication channels available to them. Media value is key in securing sponsorship of any sorts and it's the first thing they should address. The same could be said of Malaysian footballers abroad like Lim Teong Kim and Titus Palani. If I remember correctly, Akmal Rizal had a diary in a local daily when he was abroad. Given the rise in online media channels of late, it would make sense to do the same again so Malaysians are aware of how these guys are fairing in the global arena.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Aug 5 2010, 04:14 PM

Which reinforces one of my earlier points. That some people have the vision but they are surrounded by people who don't know how or what to do to promote the game again.

Wikipedia might not be accurate but it isn't not pure fabrication either.



If you look at the list of FAM committee members, they consist almost totally of either royalty or politicians. Where are the ex-footballers, football managers or anyone who at any one time in their lives were actually involved or were exposed to the intracacies of the sport? If they don't know what to do, outsource the marketing of the clubs or the leagues to experts. I mean if we were actually once considering to build a multi million dollar sports complex in the UK, I'm sure we can afford a reputable marketing consultant and qualified personnel.

So fans should do something and not just sit around and complain. Well if the politics in our country is a reflection of the politics in sports, what can we do? It isn't as though we get to vote for to determine the FAM committee. At least in the recent elections, there was some semblance of hope in that our electoral system was completely rigged.

It's also genetic to a large extent. I mean Asians generally are smaller than our Western counterparts. Size isn't everything though, I mean the Mexicans are hardly the biggest blokes around. I remember a game they played against South Korea maybe 2 World Cups ago and the Korean's kicked them about the park. Can't dispute that size does give you a slight edge, not just physically but mentally as well. Perhaps we should start by picking bigger blokes and training them to play. Our centrebacks are hardly the biggest guys around and while we may be able to compete by Asian standards, we'll not win many balls against much taller Western teams.

Not being familiar with how frequent we play international matches, I can't quantify "consistent results". Just as our slump didn't happen overnight, I don't expect us to rise from the ashes of the Phoenix anytime soon, at least to the level we were once at. Winning the SEA games last year gave us at least a glimmer of hope that we would some day soon, rule South East Asia again. In recent years, the likes of Vietnam, Thailand and Indonesia have ruled the roost. At one point we were so bad, we lost to Laos, a team that until today has no professional league. If we continue to build on the SEA games win and achieve decent results in upcoming tournaments or qualifiers, that would be an indication of consistency.

They aren't the same, no doubt. The timing of a friendly is important as well. If you are playing a team that is preparing for an upcoming tournament, then you are more likely to face stiffer competition, opposed to a team experiment with new players. I'm sure player on both sides will go all out to prove they are deserving of a place in the starting lineup but having fresh faces also there is a high chance of playing a 'weakened' side. Like you say, we can't decide who the opposition fields, but we can decide when and who to play against. My take is, as I have mentioned above, is that a clear indication of progress is when the team plays in their next tournament/qualifying campaign.




Isn't this inevitable though? In the end, football is a career and like any other career, they'd want to get paid and from what I hear, some local footballers earn a fair sum. This brings me back to the point I made earlier about this team going down the same path as their predecessors. If visiting managers were honest, then it's clear that what we lack isn't skill and ability. It's when they grow up and start playing for state sides that the problem begins. If this is the case, then how likely is it that this current crop of youngsters will turn out any different than those before them?

It isn't just the football in Malaysia but to some extent, the nation but I don't want to stray off topic. When I dig up youtube videos of the national side from the 70's, I honestly feel an overwhelming sense of emotion. Watching Mokhtar Dahari score that goal against England, or even Hassan Sani set up James Wong for the goal against Korea leaves me wondering what happened? Back then the team was truly 1Malaysia as was the nation.

Ok fine so I'll have to stray for awhile. Back in 1992, I was at Stadium Negara cheering our Thomas Cup team on as we faced Indonesia. Fans of every race sang in unison as our players took to the courts. Led by team manager Punch Gunalan, the likes of Rashid Sidek, Foo Kok Keong, Razif & Jailani Sidek, Soo Beng Kiang & Cheah Soon Kit were victorious. At one point, Foo Kok Keong even threw up into a bucket, he was so fatigued. Tun Dr. Siti Hasmah was on her feet the whole time. After Soo Beng Kiang's winning smash, the whole stadium erupted and Malaysians of all races were embracing random strangers. Not for the first time, sport brought a nation together. Maybe one day, football will. I don't care to speculate why so few Chinese or Indians play these days. Salary? Perhaps. One more problem for the FAM to address then. Market the league and bring in sponsors again.



Got it off Wikipedia I just googled, "Malaysian Football; corruption". Take your pick.



I've actually been asked this question countless time, especially since I inked my arm. I'd be lying if I said that the trophies and titles mean nothing. It's the reason I got to watch them play back in the day there was no ASTRO. Only teams that featured consistenly in cup finals were aired on TV. Since then however, I've done some pretty extensive reading on the club to understand the culture and philosophies of the club. I've read about Shankly and I've heard about Paisley from Phil Neal himself! Legend! Met him with a few other blokes when he was down in KL and we have a few beers together. I've always wondered why players who have played at Anfield, claim it's such a special place, and why this club was such a special club. From what I could gather few fans have such an affinity to their football club. This was most recently evident in Istanbul. At 3-0 down against AC Milan, the fans sang "You'll Never Walk Alone", and the players responded. With Liverpool being by and large an industrial city, our fans consists largely of blue collared employees. Well since then of course, like any other football club, you get your group of wealthy tourists. The club was seen by it's fans as a symbol of hope and once a week at least, they were taken away from the monotony of their daily lives. It's why these cab drivers and truck drivers use up all their savings following the team around Europe.

Now I've been to Liverpool and I've seen first hand what the club means to them, and I can see why. The fact that until today, fans from all over remember Hillsborough and have done their part in supporting the campaign for justice shows such a strong sense of solidarity. It may sound like as script from a bad movie, but Liverpool to me isn't just a football club. The values that Shankly had instilled are practiced not just by the players but by the fans. I've read his book but I don't want to get all preachy. If anyone wants to know more about Shankly, just google him.

To answer your question, yes, I'd still support them even if I don't get to watch them because to me, the boardroom and the decisions they make, do not represent Liverpool Football club and I'm sure our fans agree. If they didn't, they would have boycotted the club in protest against the owners. The thing is, I feel a connection to our national team, and in recent years, I'm getting increasingly disconnected from our nation as a whole, and the sad thing is, it isn't by choice.

You are right. In this aspect, there is nothing the FAM can do for me but it may not apply to everyone. It certainly doesn't seem to apply to you or anyone else here and so it doesn't mean the FAM can drop the ball.

Been awhile since I've been part of such an extensive conversation. Unfortunately I'm going away tomorrow so I'll focus on key areas of it.



Who governs the State FAs though? Is there a controlling body? e.g. Financial Institutions = Bank Negara. Communications Companies = MCMC.



I don't really know why the Chinese are staying away. I hear some people say it's the pay but then I also hear that some footballers earn up to RM15 - RM 20K a month. I also hear about racial discrimination, something I can neither confirm nor discount. If it's the latter, then the Malaysian Chinese Football Association will be as effective as the MCA. If it's something else, I don't know what it is.

I'm no marketing guru either but it generally means we need to create interest in a product. Firstly, we need to create a product of interest. We need to decide who the audience is? (the mass Malaysian market? - I don't think this works given our diversity, so do you start with the Malays given they compromise the majority of fans?). If it is, then we merely need to look to Kelantan as an example don't we? How come their supporters are so fanatical? You mentioned before that KAFA was taking steps to develop Kelantan football so perhaps all other states should follow suite. After defining their audience, they need to find out why these people (who are presumably football fans), have no interest in the domestic league. I can't go any further because I've no idea what their reasons are. Assuming these are the reasons:-

1) Quality of play has declined.
2) No more star power.
3) Too political e.g. managers not having full control over team selection.

Before you can create interest or promote something, you need to forecast and address any issues. It's why companies do R&D prior to launching products. It's why they have surveys to find out the wants and needs of its consumers. In this case, they need to know what the audience want to see.

Assuming these issues/concerns are addressed by the 'product' then we move on to deciding how best to sell it? Talk to sponsors and convince them that their brand will be seen by X number of eyeballs via TV, print media, out-of-home sites e.g. billboards etc. Which sponsors again depend on which demographic you're targetting? When there is money available, not only will state FAs have money to develop their facilities/hire foreign expertise and so on, they'll have money to attract quality foreign imports. I strongly believe that local players can benefit from this and foreign players should not be seen as threats. I think the decision to go fully local was a wrong one.

Sorry but I'll stop here for now. Needless to say, I think the first step to marketing the domestic football is to work on improving the product itself first. Then only do we move on to packaging and selling it.



Just to reiterate I had spoke to a former colleague of mine who played for Negeri Sembilan in the 90's. I also spoke to a prominent former sports journalist who has interviewed the likes of Muhammad Ali. I realise that I sound like some random dude claiming something with no evidence but I really don't think it's worth revealing names just to win an argument.

Let's just say it's an assumption based on the amount of corruption that happens in all other facets of our society.

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Added on August 26, 2010, 4:41 pm

Well then there is no point in going any further. 20 years without the league title may not seem like a long time but 10 years winning next to nothing while your closesest rivals are winning everything isn't exactly painless. I do now fans of Southampton, Norwich and Ipswich who still stay true to their sides so I do get where you're coming from. As for me, it's like I said earlier. I can only support a club I've watched and in the days we didn't have ASTRO, we weren't exactly spoilt for choice. All I know is I'm fortunate to have been to Anfield, and it was one of the best moments of my life.

That all being said, I hope we don't get relegated just so I can prove that I am a "true fan".


This post has been edited by Duke Red: Aug 26 2010, 04:41 PM

To gain a better understanding of football in Malaysia, I had a brief conversation with a couple of individuals, one of which is the brother of B.Sathianathan. He and his associates are on a quest to improve the standards of football amongst Malaysian youth and it is their opinion that all we lack is exposure in terms of competitive matches. Our boys can stand toe-to-toe against the likes of Korea and Japan when they are really young but by the time they are 16 - 18, the gap widens because whilst our counterparts have played maybe 400 competitive matches over a span of 5-6 years, our lads have only played about 80.

I had also met with a foreigner who works for a company that does the marketing for a couple of English Premier League sides in Asia. He is working on a progamme that gives kids at a really young age (+/- 12) the opportunity to go for trials in England and if they are successful, to join the academy and train with them for a mimimum of 1 month. Now, while this may not appeal to all locals who dream of playing for their state sides, such a stint can give them an edge over their local counterparts. The comment I got from this bloke I spoke to is that English coaches are saying that our players go over when they are too old and we need to start working on our youth when they are much younger. A bit hard because from what I remember during my schooldays, our PE sessions consisted of 30 kids chasing after 1 football and you hardly got any time on the ball and when you did, you were crowded our and bundled over.

I asked about the development of local football and he said that the problem is, our state sides are run like someone's personal business and not a football club. Whatever profits come in, goes straight in someone's pocket instead of being pumped back in to develop the club/team. Football in Malaysia therefore stagnates.

It's good to hear however that there are people out there looking into either developing our youth at a very early age, or giving them the opportunity to have trials with big clubs who have the facilities and the know-how to develop them. We can't rely on the FAM who from what I have heard, do not have sufficient funding. Weird seeing as I've always remembered them getting a fair bit whenever our budget is announced. Either way, we should be looking at churning out some quality players in the next 5-6 years with the rise of such programmes.