Hi，I am currently working in Silverlake,
I am interested to get myself into the AS400 field,
but my concern is,the use of RPGLE is very limited in Malaysia,
only banks,insurance or other financial companies are using this kind of programming language,
and I do worry that RPGLE will be eliminated in the future,
banks may shift from RPGLE to other technology,
so if I got myself into AS400 already,I do limit myself,
so guys,any one has experience to share with me?
What do you guys think??

Chances of banks switching out of RPGLE is minimal as it is too big of an impact to migrate away from it. HOWEVER, demand for it is getting less and less.

The demand comes from existing clients not from new clients. So its not growing anymore.

Business knowledge > Technical Skills.

You dont wanna be a programmer for your whole life.

I doubt banks will change to other technologies so easily, since IBM mainframe is so secure and steady. But your job options are restricted to Silverlake or supporting banks IT.

Years ago I switched from RPGLE into another technology after one year experience and took a big paycut. You can either do what I did, or start learning other technologies on the side (Java, .Net, SAP, Oracle, etc)

AS/400 is not mainframe. Therefore chance of downsizing to other platform from AS/400, e.g. UNIX is higher than mainframe.

@Currylaksa

a few other comps also uses AS400 such as nippon, atos origin and so on. Its not limited to banks only but you have very limited options as not many comps in general use AS400

>>Kelvin: Yes I agree with what you are saying,If I really go into AS400,then my career with be within the banking scope..
Any one knows how is the AS400 trend in Europe countries??I heard Silverlake brought the technology from US.

>>Miriam: yes but a newbie has to start as a programmer isn't it??

>>Currylaksa: Mind to share what kind of technology you are doing now??
I am curious about one thing,by the time you changed from AS400 to another field,did your superior offered you a price higher
than your salary as AS400 programmer or a price for fresh people??

P.S: How is the trend of AS400/RPGLE in other countries,especially job opportunities in Europe

That time I switched to SAP ABAP, as a freshie again, and it cost me a RM200/month pay cut. suffer one whole year.

Suffer for short term only.

Long term, you will see that you have made a good decision.

@Tiger99
I started my career without being in programming first its how you sell yourself. And yes i'm in the IT line.

200 it not too much of a paycut bro. Some ppl willing to take a 2k paycut to get into SAP.

Can you explain what is SAP in brief??
In your opinion,AS400 and SAP which one allows you to build a brighter career path??

@Tiger99
SAP = system, analyst and products. Its the biggest ERP system that is being used at this moment. 80% of fortune 500 companies have implemented this as their ERP system.

AS400 vs SAP.. SAP wins hands down .. there isnt even a need to compare. Which is why ppl are willing to take a RM2k pay cut to get into SAP.

Ala... SAP ABAP is not good as well, salaries are getting significantly depressed

Only SAP Functional Consultants or Project Managers will earn the big bucks, good luck breaking into that circle.

You forget contractors

So Vinci777,are you still doing AS400??



This post has been edited by Tiger99: Nov 17 2010, 01:06 AM

Yes indeed. Its a small world. We might even met before. lol

@currylaksa
yea functional and project manages earn big bucks. Hasn't the trend always been that way in any IT related firm? Not to question programmers capability but in Malaysia, programmers are UNDERPAID in my opinion.

According to official salary surveys for 2010 (e.g. Robert Walters), SAP ABAP salaries are in line with J2EE and C++. SAP ABAP salaries are almost half of SAP Functional Consultant. It's a shame that ABAPers get categorized as high earners like a functional, just because of the SAP tagline.

Soft skills and management, there's where the money is. There is little or no premium for the programming language/platform we are in.

@currylaksa
i guess that has always been the way it is.

Back to the topic, RPGLE is a very very risky road to go for now with little upside but a lot of downside. Can the demand for RPGLE continue for the next 20 years? Thats a question you have to ask yourself.

Yea. Like i always said. RPG or watever language is just a programming language. In the end is the product/business knowledge dat brings u to the place u wanted.

Do you worry about that problem?I mean the less and less demand on RPGLE in the future..
But I think there is still nothing can substitute AS400 in banking field yet isn't it??
The programming language is all the same,(RPGLE,Java,C++,C#..),but the business knowledge in certain field is important.

This post has been edited by Tiger99: Nov 17 2010, 11:57 PM

I just can hope dat by the time i need to worry about the problem, I wont be doing technical programming anymore

So its a matter of preferences, even you are seeing urself as a programmer 10 years from now you don't have to worry yet because in 10 years u will less likely be involved so much in programming. At that level, you will be doing design and planning instead of the technical programming stuff unlike the US market where programmers still getting paid well. In Malaysia, you need to step up to be a analyst or consultant in order to be compensated well enough.

Malaysia and India seems to have become the global IT hub for many MNC due to the low labor cost therefore you won't wanna compete in technical programming aspects with all the young ppl out there when u get old and have a family. .

Regarding the banking software, there arent too many vendors around. Many banks and financial institutions still using Mainframes and As/400 as their core bank and core bank is not a thing you would change every 10 years as they invested hundred millions on it. It will stay as long as vendors and IBM continue to provide support and upgrades. For new implementations, its sorely depends on the bank to choose which vendors and solution then see what system they should buy in order to support them. There is pro and cons in every job. You just need to try and get the best out of it and dats the only thing u can control.

This post has been edited by Vinci777: Nov 18 2010, 10:30 AM

@Vinci777
hence my point of the demand for AS400 / RPGLE remains constant only but does not go up. Only existing businesses that have implemented it are providing "recurring" business.

---

Added on November 18, 2010, 2:37 pmBut actually on a side note, I'm interested to know if anyone has been doing programming for 10years of more (be it RPG, JAVA, C++, ABAP or so on) and wants to continue doing programming. This is for knowledge purposes only.

This post has been edited by kelvin_tan: Nov 18 2010, 02:37 PM

>>Vinci777: Thanks for the reply,you did provide a lot of information to me.
I got what you tried to say,but I have been having a contradiction.
I shall graduate by next year,do you think it is suitable for me to join Silverlake??
I wanted to get into the banking field but at the same time a am worry that an AS400 programmer wont bring me far in my career..
May I know how can I learn business knowledge of banking in Silverlake?
If I joined Silverlake as a programmer,will I be able to learn any business knowledge since I am a technical person??

@Tiger99
For Silverlake, the people that learns the most about both technical and business knowledge are the programmers. But as a programmer, chances of you joining the bank is low. Even if you join you will be in the IT team doing programming / support.

Different in other companies.

Bro..first and foremost, RPGLE / RPG is not going to be phased out anytime soon.

The only suggestion is , Get out of Silverlake and you will see the real working world...
Silverlake is just a too "China Man" Company..and I believe the first thing when u first joint them, Mr. GP Ooi, must have told you "this is a No Bonus" company, we don't practice giving bonuses"

Where is the motivation? Get out and you will learn more

@coconutzz
thats not true. Silverlake has started including bonus in the offer letter to the NEW HIRES ONLY... Old hires forget about it.

But for the new hires.. their increment is like crap..

BTW, I do agree on your point that RPG / RPGLE will not be phased out anytime soon. But the demand is getting less n less. The difference will be noticeable in maybe 10 years from now.

Really? they really do provide bonuses for new staff??

@Tiger99
yea from what I heard. Need further confirmation on this. New hires here refers to fresh grad new hires.

Dam, if like dat must mogok ard

@vinci777
believe me.. ur better of without the bonus. The increment sucks for those with bonus..

Kelvin,I wonder which company you are working with now.
mind to share??

@Tiger99
Why the sudden inquiry on which company I am working for ? ><
I'm not in silverlake but I am on a banking project as a business analyst. Naturally, banking projects = liasing heavily with silverlake

Because it seems like you understand Silverlake so much..
But you said you are not a Silverlaker,
so I wonder lo...

@tiger99
Hahah.. I do hear a lot of things on the sidelines I got study about silverlake cause last time wanted to enter but then decided otherwise.

>>Kelvin: I am still considering whether enter AS400 or SAP...
not really sure what is SAP, SAP stands for system,application and product??
and what is SAP ABAP??
does not make sense

ABAP is the programming language for SAP.
ABAP = Advanced business application programming.

Take note that Abapers in SAP gets underpaid if you are comparing with functional consultants. However, being in SAP is a plus on itself although the market is less "juicy" then 5-10 years ago.

What do you mean by functional consultants??
That means functional consultants are not touching technical parts?
It sounds like SAP is having the same problem as AS400 which has a "juiceless" market
Really has no idea what kind of systems can be developed by using SAP...
Is the development tool of SAP looks similar like AS400?

@Tiger99
Functional consultants configure the system settings, design the flow, etc. SAP is kinda like a juiceless market. Development tool of SAP is different from AS400.

It's not that they do not want to change.
I feel that it's obselete for a reason? On the banks point of view. It's safer to be obselete. Unlike the commonly used SAP?

It's even better if nobody heard of them.

@hybridmaestro
go live in a cave.

"Its safer to be obselete". What the hell is this ? Organizations dont care if its popular or not. All they want is
a) It should meet their requirements
b) there should be support if a problem occurs.

Obselete technology = less ppl are using it = less ppl have expertise on it = chances of having support is less or VERY EXPENSIVE.

Reasons why banks dont want to change is because the impact to change is too huge because they handle customers MONEY.

Banks usually have in-house IT team or they own a subsidiary/partly own a company that handles their system issues. It's common sense, it's someone else money, they couldn't just give the responsibility to a third party.

Since they handle someone else money. Aren't security issues should be the prime concern here?

Heard of COBOL? it's obselete enough to be safe.

U have limit urself to think at your own perspective. A good consultant should always think at the point of view of the client/business.
I.e. Logitistics = Should always be accuracy and timeliness.
Banking = Security is the prime concern.

Yes, changing is always costly and has big impact. Aren't this supposed to be common knowledge?
Chances are, you in the IT line but not the into the consulting area. WD? Seagate? AMD? Agilent?

@hybridMaestro
I'm in IT consulting. And the requirements so far is, you either meet their requirements, or you dont. They wont care whether it is popular or obsolete. If it serves their purpose, and if there is ready support, you got yourself a deal.

I'm speaking as a consultant that designed and implemented systems for banks. My company does provide support for these banks in the case of any problems.

---

Added on December 3, 2010, 6:14 pmOn a side note. things that are less popular / obselete is because it cannot meet the worlds demands. Its unable to evolve further to meet requirements.

Popular things keep growing and become renowned because it solves problems or is able to satisfy certain requirement for most ppl.

This post has been edited by kelvin_tan: Dec 3 2010, 06:14 PM

Kelvin, can I enter SAP field as a fresh grad??
what is a good way to become a SAP consultant?
should I join as a ABAPER then jump into Functional Consultant or straight away join as a functional people??

@Tiger99
Yes i have received offers in the past to join SAP as a fresh.
I'll give you a head start.
- Vantage Point Consulting
- ABeam consulting
- IBM Consulting
- Accenture
- HCL - Axon

these are the few that hires fresh grads for SAP that I can say with certainty.

Joining ABAP and moving to functional is feasible but not easy to do.

Kelvin,thanks for providing such useful information
You mean joining as a Functional is better than starting as a ABAPER??
Can a functional person learn technical stuffs like ABAPERS do??
What did you work as when you first joined SAP world??

Regards.

This post has been edited by Tiger99: Dec 4 2010, 12:18 PM

I rejected the SAP offer. I was only in SAP for a very brief period. Chances of moving to functional when u start off as an abaper is minimal. Not to say you can't, but its difficult.

Axon Solutions you will have to start off in technical field. After 2 years you will be given the option to move to functional subject to your performance.

kelvin do you also liaising with Consolsys Technologies ?

@skycrew
no i dont. Why suddenly asking me that?

just asking only because u said that u are consultant for banking solution.

i thought u also liaising with that company. if u do, please reply to this thread

http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=838861

thanks kelvin

Kelvin,did you mean by the time you were offered positions frm Silverlake and SAP,
you went for SAP??
then after some time you quite SAP again??
why did you quit?

@Tiger99
I was interested to apply for Silverlake but I didnt. I applied SAP related positions and got some. Ended up I didnt like it cause I was offered technical roles. So i decided to give it up.

Kelvin,so what is your job title now?
you got a functional position now?

Business Analyst. Yes functional.

Business Analyst?? sounds like you are no longer touching technical stuff

@tiger99
No technical anymore for me. Well, minor scripting etc every now and then. But no programming / coding

Kelvin, yea, it sounds like one of the business analyst in Silverlake while I was working there..haha

Lol.. I would assume my role as a BA is different from roles of BA in silverlake (based on my observation).

BA is the point of contact for users. BA does system design. But in silverlake, users discussion is direct to technical ppl and system design seems to be done by the technical guys as well..

wow you knows Silverlake well,yea tht's y my product manager always have meetings with bank users to get requirements..
By the way Kelvin, what's the difference between SAP Basis,SAP FICO, and SAP ABAPER???
there are so many roles in SAP which are confusing

SAP ABAP / Basis / BI/BW = technical

Basis is the adminstrator of SAP.
BI / BW = Business Intelligence / Business Warehouse. Kind of like data mining for decision making purposes.

SAP FICO = Financials and Controlling = Finance / Accounting related module.. functional

SAP = Material Manegement = Manage Materials ? = Functional.

Number of SAP functional consultants > SAP Technicals in most projects. Because SAP is already a ready made system and technical ppl is involved only if the system cannot cater for the requirements of users.

I'm sure you can google these up.

Well, probably not because you've never gone that path .. I've many friends who were doing programming but after couple of years, moved on doing functional and earn much better salary compared to me. Oh yeah, I don't have the soft skill to con people .. so, got stuck doing programming my whole life

Oh .. BTW, I thought AS400 is a platform .. SAP used to have a version running on AS400, no idea if they still have ..

This post has been edited by wiraone: Dec 10 2010, 11:06 PM

@wiraone
Moving from technical to functional in SAP... not in as400.. Not to say it cannot be done but it is definately not easy to do. The ratio of ppl that managed to do so is probably 5 to 1.

I've many friends who started as Abapers who are now doing functional, I'm talking about SAP here not Silverlake or others that running on AS400.

Kelvin,yea sure I can ask Mr Google but I would like to listen what experienced people say about it.
This is because they have real exposure about SAP..


Wiraone,so are you still an ABAPER now??
Hmm.. as far as I know,in Silverlake, like my product manager, he has 10 yrs experience in technical but now he is doing functional stuffs..
I mean,he has a strong basis technically..
However I am not sure about SAP,does it applies too??

The same goes to any field Tiger .. when you've the technical background, going to functional or management, you'll have the advantage. Oh yes, I'm still doing ABAP for the past .. 16 years now. Many things have changed for sure .. Why didn't I move on to the better part of SAP? Because I don't really like to deal with end users, I don't like to do management either. I've once lead a team of Abapers but pitty them, I don't really have trust in them and most of the time, I went ahead and did the tasks myself.. (I'm now working remotely at home as "freelancer").

Most of my friends who were doing ABAP with me are doing functional consultants or managers now. Only few are sticking doing ABAP, guess probably with the same reason as me.

This post has been edited by wiraone: Dec 14 2010, 08:23 AM

@wiraone
nice freelancer earns big bucks in SAP. Probably more than those managers

wiraone,
Changes in what aspects??
Wow 16 yrs of experience...so what are your comments about being an ABAPER??
Your situation is kinda like another senior of mine in Silverlake.
He has 10 yrs experience in AS400 as well but today he is still a programmer.
When people asked him, "y u are still a programmer aft 10 yrs??"
he said because he liked doing programming..
so he didn't want to be promoted,

This post has been edited by Tiger99: Dec 14 2010, 01:38 PM

If programmer can get the same pay as PM. Y not?

really?? programmer can get same pay as pm??

When the right opportunity struck at the right time, sure

"RPG 5"

try to google that

Googled that term "RPG 5" but it turned out a list of result of RPG games.
what exactly is that??