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 Personal financial management, V2

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poolcarpet
post Jan 23 2013, 04:34 PM

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hi avatar123,

I did my own calculation but not using XIRR and came to a figure out about 4.06% effective interest per year. In my opinion, this is very good and low cost of loan, even lower than housing loan which I think is lowest at this time (4.4%?)

I think this is your company benefit, something like a financial assistance plan - I know because one of my previous companies also offered same benefit rclxms.gif

While it's a good deal, you need to find out these:

1. What happens if you leave the company BEFORE 3 years is up? (or if company let you go, hopefully NOT!) Repay balance one lump sum? What if you do not have that amount to repay at that time?
2. Is this benefit taxable? i.e. reported in EA form? If yes, then you need to factor in that 'cost' too.

and like others have said, you need to make sure you have the discipline to handle the extra cash. Don't spend it, but instead invest it, even in something low risk like bond so that you can hopefully get better than 4.06% returns pa until the end of the 3 years.

P/s : I'm new in this section of the forum, but have been reading/learning a lot about personal finance. Even remember reading an article in personal money by one of the forummers here notworthy.gif



QUOTE(avatar123 @ Jan 23 2013, 08:53 AM)
Thanks!!
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poolcarpet
post Jan 23 2013, 11:28 PM

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rclxms.gif these are my heroes.... Except the mercedes part... Unless of course the benz is a tool for them to earn even more money (vs just a status symbol)

QUOTE(AAAABBBB @ Jan 23 2013, 11:08 PM)
Later I go back hometown, I go meet those millionaire old man sitting at coffee shop every morning to ask them more advise on financial management...

they also very kiamsap one...

they go jogging every morning, then go coffee shop order kopi o satu, sit one table together read newspaper for free, chit-chat with friends and enjoy the fan for whole morning...They tell me cheap lo just need to pay the kopi o one glass only ma, can read newspaper and enjoy the fan..home no need order newspaper and waste electricity on fan...can enjoy some more chatting with friend..then 11 smtg the go round round their business...Crazy lo...u see their Ah Mat come big car benz pick them up one..

then we one day talking how long do u use the soap (sabun). I tell them I use till very thin, then I throw away already...they laugh at me...They tell me the secret to become millionaire is u stick the thin soap onto a new soap and continue using till the end no waste....HAhahahaa......No wonder they so rich...they really practise a simple life yet when look at their lifestyle they really pay attention to details on waste management...
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poolcarpet
post Jan 24 2013, 12:01 AM

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Yeah exactly, they use the car to make more money (in early stage) instead of just getting it for the sake of it and for status symbol. So in a way can be considered an asset in their business as they get more deals... rclxms.gif

QUOTE(AAAABBBB @ Jan 23 2013, 11:40 PM)
Huh,,,they shared with me too the story on the benz part...

early stage when they do business, cash not enough, thus need to buy benz big car hire ah mat - so they can easily secure loans financing from banks, relatives, along, etc. They aka bank, along, relatives etc will not rush him to pay back quickly, coz look at his life style got big car where can be no money or pokai one..so they just pay back loan in a timely manner..

later stage, money too much dunno where to spend, they ask their accountant calculate lo, instead give govt tax may as well buy big car and sit lo...comfortable and nice status too..

smile.gif
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poolcarpet
post Jan 24 2013, 08:31 AM

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The soap story is must one of many. It's the mentality that is important, not the calculation on how much you save out of that soap. While i personally don't subscribe to such extreme ideas (maybe thats wh i'm not a millionaire... Yet) it's interesting to understand their thinking.

In the story, they also spend time at the coffee shop, drinking coffee, reading free newspaper, and using the shops electricity instead of their own. We may laugh at this as being trivial, but similarly with compounding interest, the effects will be there over a long period of time.

Rich ppl focus on high earnings AND living well below their means.
Poor ppl focus on spending what they have earned, now and future earnings.

There is no point earning high but yet spending is high too right? One will LOOK rich but actually have not much net worth. Look at well paid footballers and you'll see. Few hundred k per week, but yet some of them are bankrupt.

That book mentioned in the second link is a fantastic book. It really does give insight to how millionaires think and i think some of the principles can be applied here too. I mean, things like millionaires cutting out discount coupons, going for survey just to earn a hundred bucks, these are beyond my normal comprehension but it shows their mentality towards living well below their means and that is inspiring.

This post has been edited by poolcarpet: Jan 24 2013, 08:35 AM
poolcarpet
post Jan 24 2013, 09:01 PM

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But some uncles in small towns really don't have anything to do and can afford to sit 6 hours at kopitiam... Their business is run by workers, and they probably have lots of land. Read in newspaper article some small town where ppl buy properties in CASH. And we're talking about 500k to
1m properties.... blink.gif

I humbly disagree though on the lavish millionaires. If there is no discipline and personal finance, i'm pretty sure they will end up overspending and will sooner or later end up a non-millionaire. The world is too good at encouraging one to spend lavishly. Few m on diamond rings, few m on sports car, few m on a yacht... And it's gone. Unless you're talking about super billionaires, no matter how they spend also cannot finish their money.

Unfortunately i think most of us normal joes will not be in the super millionaire category, (that's why we're here!), so i believe the stankey danko type of millionaire is what most of us can aim for... Has anyone ever tried to do a survey on malaysian millionaires like stanley danko? Would be interesting to see if they buy new cars, drink starbucks or buy rolexes. smile.gif

And just a curious question, how do you guys budget effectively? I have been trying to do that but it's extremely hard to keep track of expenses... Write down somewhere each time money is spent? Review daily?

QUOTE(Beachkid @ Jan 24 2013, 08:39 PM)
There are a few kinds of millionnaires. The most important is what are they giving up to earn or store those millions.

The millionaire next door (Stanley and Danko) which is what MOST of the percentage of millionaires are made of.

and

The lavish millionaires which do not have to calculate the price of a soap bar to become a millionaire. They make 300 000 a month minimum and can enjoy life based on their freedom without subjecting themselves to miserly acts.

Secondly, I can't debunk this myth enough:

Those old uncles drinking kopi-o with kaya bread reading newspapers are rarely secret millionaires. This is some romantic fantasy those frugal Malaysians teach us. It sounds nice on paper and it sounds like an inspiring story but to be true-if you have time to sit at a coffee store 6 hours a day smoking and talking with your buddies, you are probably a taxi driver or beca man.

If they ARE millionaires they are the exception not the rule.

Compounding interest will not make you millions if you do not have large capital. You will only make probably 4 million when you are in a wheelchair at an old folks home.
Compounding interest will make you a millionaire with big initial capital. This will rocket you to a millionaire by at least 30 years old or younger.

Yes that is correct: But I will add some other individuals:

Rich people with a rich lifestyle( freedom and choice)=have high earnings, high savings, high spendings(if they choose to)-the best

Rich people with poor lifestyle=have high OR low earnings, high savings, low spendings

Rich people with rich lifestyle ( but in deficit) =high earnings, low OR deficit savings, high spendings- like footballers/moviestars that are bankrupt

Poor people with rich lifestyle (deficit) = have high OR low earnings, low OR deficit savings, high spendings

Poor people with poor lifestyle-have low earnings, low savings, low spendings

There you go. Life is not about money alone-you must see what the money makes for the individual.

So yes,
There are millionaires who buy secondhand clothes, second hand cars and eat frugal everyday.
There are millionaires who buy supercars who are up their nose in debt and are soon to be bankrupt.
There are millionaires who have supercars OR secondhand cars if they choose to and after all that still have 10 mill in the bank.

Which millionaire do you want to be?
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poolcarpet
post Jan 24 2013, 09:27 PM

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I think it depends on your understanding. My understanding of the kopitiam story is millionaires even saving on soap to that extent (i would love to know how they use toilet tissue roll.... hmm.gif ), not that they became millionaires by saving on soap lol. but i can identify with that type of frugality as i have relatives with that behavior, and they did amass quite a fortune that is far beyond expected given their level of income. So if income is a higher (ie stronger offense in stanley danko lingo) combined with frugality (strong defense) then I think it's totally achievable to hit a million in net worth.

However, in malaysia and the world, the temptations and pressure to spend is immense and ppl really need a lot of willpower and discipline not to weaken their financial defense. Watches are an example, i do not see the point of spending thousands on a tag heuer or rolex for example, it doesn't tell the time any better than a sub rm100 casio but yet the world paints a pocture that if you are wearing a tag h or rolex, then you are successful (even if you're not)

Good tip on the budget part, i really need to work hard on that as that is my weakest area sad.gif



QUOTE(Beachkid @ Jan 24 2013, 09:14 PM)
The kopitiam scenario initially came up because a member stated how people saving on soap at kopitiams were millionaires. This is not the best[cool.gif way in my honest opinion to gain your wealth.

If sitting at kopitiam after landing huge business deals is their choice then all props to them. They have achieved the freedom of financial choice which is true wealth.

Yes I am talking about high net worth individuals
But not all of them-yes I can't say this enough from my last post. If you are a billionniare, multi millionaire, millionnaire, or have 25 cents in your pocket and you overspend-you WILL be in debt and later on bankrupt. That is not the point, the point is if you have high cash flow-you can increase your spendings BUT not to the point that it overextends your cashflow. If you do wish to do that then you need to increase your cashflow futher. But your spendings must always be lesser.

Case in point,
If you want to own an EX5-you must try to increase your earnings from 1000 to 5000 a month for example.
If you decide later you want an Aprilla-you must try to increase your cashflow from 5000 to 50 000 for example.

Under the stanley and danko millionnaire you CANNOT:

Buy rolex
Go to starbucks
Eat sushi
Buy first hand cars
Buy first hand clothes
Buy gifts
Eat at posh restaurants
Go to first class trips

You must be a slave to your budget.

On the budget topic, for me it was veryyyy hard.

I started around age 14 because my mom at that time told me to keep a notepad.
In this notepad I had to write all my incoming and outgoing expenses down to the cent.

Even if it's a piece of chewing gum I had to write down. So from my teens I already wrote my balance sheet/income statement even though I didn't have a job/ my allowance was put under "income".

So yeah it's hard but it usually takes 3 to 4 weeks for a practice to become a habit based on a science study I once read which has proved true for me. So do this for 3 weeks and it will as natural as walking to you after that.
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This post has been edited by poolcarpet: Jan 24 2013, 09:28 PM
poolcarpet
post Jan 25 2013, 04:21 PM

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I agree with this view. Since this thread is about personal finance management, I think we can safely exclude those who are really earning super high incomes, living a high consumption lifestyle (they can afford it, no problems). Majority of people will be normal wage earners, striving to improve their personal finance status.

Obviously, there are some opinions that one should strive hard to earn more money, and therefore don't have to live the frugal life, but some people do not see the point in spending excessively in things which they feel is not needed. Meaning they actually feel happy living a frugal life, not a poor sad state of existence trying to be a millionaire by using soap shavings and reading free newspapers.

I hear all those stories about fresh grads coming out to work, earning say 2k per month and then jumping in to buy new car on 7-9 year loans, drinking starbucks,chatime, buying the latest iphone/samsung galaxy costing their 1 month salary or other expensive branded goods on credit. Those are all scary situations, and I'll admit that I was once like that too. Just looking at nicer cars, and calculating whether I can afford to own/loan it through a 5 or 7 year loan - as long as I can afford to pay the monthly installment, then there is a high probability to get it. sad.gif

We are conditioned by the consumer market we live in, and some by peer pressure and some by lack of awareness. Many would have gone through the buy-new-car-on-5-year-or-more-loan mistake for example and then scratching their heads wondering why they don't have much money...

Let me try and ask a question, assuming now someone gave you RM500k and told you it's yours, free for you to do anything with it. What is the first thing you would do? Answering this will probably reveal a lot about how the person thinks in terms of personal finance management.




QUOTE(tat3179 @ Jan 25 2013, 04:04 PM)
Ahh...that is the problem isn't making...the CORRECT and SAFE ways to make more money?

Unfortunately, there is no sure fire way that everybody can safely and accurately make more money to in order to achieve financial freedom.

"Making more money" is NOT guaranteed. You could easily lose money than gain money in one's quest to make more money.

The number of idiots that got scammed by Genneva alone proved it.

However, what is guaranteed way to financial freedoms that is within your control is to manage your wants and live appropriately to your income, and never spend above your income, no matter what it is.

Of course, I am not suggesting that one should not try expand one's income if able. But the sad truth is, not everyone could do so due to fate or ability in life.

My point is, making more money is secondary priority only to watching your expenditures.

Master your expenditures, curb your wants, then only figure out how to "make more money", whatever that is.
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This post has been edited by poolcarpet: Jan 25 2013, 04:25 PM
poolcarpet
post Jan 25 2013, 11:40 PM

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I respect you for your discipline and determination. Your plan is very good but it would not have catered to the crazy escalating properties in klang valley. By the time you save the rm300k, the property that was 300k would have increased to 700-800k sad.gif so leverage from a flexi property bank loan is also important.... rclxms.gif

Btw, i ask the 500k question as that is a good way to gauge our thinking. For some get 500k means straightaway go buy the nice car they have been eyeing. Some maybe to travel to places they've always wanted to go.

Good to see all response so far is nothing of that sort, but rather to invest and think how to make the money work for you. flex.gif

So we have a lot of potential (and already) millionaires here bravo notworthy.gif

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


This post has been edited by poolcarpet: Jan 25 2013, 11:45 PM
poolcarpet
post Jan 31 2013, 01:16 PM

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I thought this thread is for (copied from v1):

"the objective of this thread is to
1. for people with financial management problems to seek help
2. for others to share their experience (and help those that need)"

Because of the availability of loans and credit, this is really why we are talking about this topic, right?

Many people have said make sure spending < income, that's a fantastic guideline. Unfortunately, loans and credit can allow people to spend < income PER MONTH, but in the long run, they become poor because of excessive debt and interest eating into their future income...

Some have opinion that ppl have the right to spend and buy whatever luxury goods they want, fair enough - enjoy life you only live once, right?

And some have the opinion why 'waste' money on these 'luxury' things - also valid point.

But the whole point about personal financial management is to grow net worth, not to enjoy life and spend like there is no tomorrow. If we're talking about enjoying life, I think there should be another thread maybe titled "How to Spend and Enjoy Life to the max"

Stanley/Danko's book has a fantastic formula at the beginning of their book:

Avg Net worth = Total annual income * age / 10

and this is a good yardstick on whether one is building up wealth or spending like there is no tomorrow.

There is no right or wrong I think, it really depends on what the individual wants. Build up wealth (this is the thread) or spend and enjoy life (new thread maybe...)

On a separate note, I read in recent magazine interview about Clarion MD, how his father sent him to Japan and the people there brought them to a posh fancy restaurant dinner. The father told the Japanese "He knows how to spend money, in fact he can teach you a thing or two. I need you to teach him how to MAKE money!" smile.gif

This post has been edited by poolcarpet: Jan 31 2013, 01:17 PM
poolcarpet
post Jan 31 2013, 11:29 PM

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Yeah one of the drawbacks of this calc is unfair to the younger ones... But hey, you can still use it... Let's assume you earn rm3k which is 36k pa. 3.6k x 25 = 90k.

Calculate your net worth, include all assets (savings, epf, car, house if any) - all liabilities (cc debt, car loan, house loan if any) and see whether it's close to this figure or far off.. If far off, then it's a good target to aim for.. The rm2k forced savings example was a good one (although quite extreme imho)... Before long you'll exceed this 90k in net worth and on your way to being financially secure! wink.gif

QUOTE(Hevrn @ Jan 31 2013, 07:54 PM)
Wow, a lil tough for a young guy turning 25 this year and having only worked for nearly 2 years. Any other better yardsticks for a poor chap like me?
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This post has been edited by poolcarpet: Jan 31 2013, 11:30 PM
poolcarpet
post Feb 1 2013, 09:29 AM

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epf should kira right? it's YOUR money your asset.. although you can't touch it yet...


QUOTE(Pink Spider @ Feb 1 2013, 09:19 AM)
Net worth? EPF balances kira tak? hmm.gif

If tak kira, I'm far off cry.gif
If kira, I think I got it biggrin.gif
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poolcarpet
post Feb 1 2013, 09:38 AM

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lol i didn't realize 36k x 2 = 72k... silly me doh.gif



QUOTE(Hevrn @ Feb 1 2013, 09:06 AM)
Thing is, I've not even made that much in my <2 years of working to allow me to save as much. Hehe.

If I were to use Wong sifu's method though, I'm well within being financially comfortable.
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poolcarpet
post Feb 8 2013, 02:17 PM

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Hi geminigeek,

Simple recommendation - don't buy a new car. Look for a second hand car which will not depreciate much e.g. MYVI. If you're cool enough to drive an older less popular car, the old Proton Iswara is a rather good deal most are all below RM10k now. Maintenance is cheap. However, there are issues with safety if you drive a lot as it is deemed a less safe car compared to newer models.

Save as much as you can out of the RM3500 and start researching and planning on the property you want to get. Research, do your homework, and go get the property instead of car. How you want to save, I think that's flexible, some will go for dollar cost averaging into unit trusts, some invest in other instruments, etc.. but regardless, just save. Even putting money in bank and then FD also better than serving a car loan...

I've shared this link elsewhere before but sharing again as this is so mind opening, so take a look and understand the concept.

http://www.daveramsey.com/articles/article...ey_automobiles/

All the best!



QUOTE(GeminiGeek @ Feb 8 2013, 01:58 PM)
I'm 25 this year, and I have no cars, no asset. I've been using parents car all this while, but I think it's time for me to get one because car memang tak cukup

I just recently got a job that earns a nett of around RM3,500 a month. I plan to get myself a car, but I'm not so sure what car to get. Any financial advice on the car price I should buy? Around 50k car? I wouldn't want to squeeze myself hard as I am saving for my first house as well.

Any good advice is appreciated.
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This post has been edited by poolcarpet: Feb 8 2013, 02:18 PM
poolcarpet
post Feb 8 2013, 02:41 PM

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If you have a car loan, it's even harder to get another house loan! Hopefully, you don't carry any balances on the credit cards.... if yes, that's another negative point when you want to apply housing loan...

If your long term plan is to get a property, don't waste your $ on cars for now. Have a firm objective and target, and strive to achieve it. E.g. in x yrs time, want to save up RMxxxxx for the deposit. Invest the money and let it grow while you continue to save...


QUOTE(GeminiGeek @ Feb 8 2013, 02:35 PM)
But here's the thing.

I have no car loans, only credit cards. With this weak credit record, wouldn't it be hard for me to apply housing loan in the future?

Please advice.
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This post has been edited by poolcarpet: Feb 8 2013, 02:43 PM
poolcarpet
post Feb 18 2013, 01:14 PM

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that's assuming one has the discipline to make the extra $ work and get higher returns that the cost of debt. unfortunately, being human, there is a high tendency and lots of pressure to spend the $$ instead and buy stuff which will not bring any return on investment smile.gif iphone 5 anyone? nice new tag heuer? brand new camry maybe? drool.gif

QUOTE(kinwing @ Feb 18 2013, 12:39 PM)
No, this a wrong mind-set. Not all debt are bad, so should not get rid of debt at all cost.

If the cost of your debt is cheap, you should not repay your debt even you have the cash. Let's other people's money to work for you.
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poolcarpet
post Feb 21 2013, 01:16 AM

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Your FIRST car cost RM150k and you paid 50% downpayment???
Wow.... But it's ok. Many ppl learn from experience unfortunately... But we keep learning, keep progressing! rclxm9.gif

QUOTE(eleven dragon @ Feb 21 2013, 12:33 AM)
Btw, i believe everyone has painful life experience before, same to me..and that's why experience is so invaluable to me; I did some big mistakes after graduated and started to work, like some others, buying a big and cool car, enjoy life, clubbing, travelling, outing for nothing...just to spend money to enjoy.. for years... Fyi, i even threw my fresh cash equal to a new toyota hilux value as 50% downpayment for my first car...thinking back also heartache, what a stupid nonsense i did last time  vmad.gif doh.gif  doh.gif
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poolcarpet
post Feb 22 2013, 11:39 AM

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rclxms.gif

but just out of curiosity... assuming annual salary 100k (easy calculation, can be anything)...

This means investment portfolio = RM1,000,000
Returns about 20% of RM100k or RM20k

This would mean return of about 2% only per annum....

Can't be that low right?

Mind to share investment strategy to generate this passive income?

notworthy.gif


QUOTE(kinwing @ Feb 22 2013, 11:24 AM)
I have been making more than 10-20k yearly through investments.

I am from a poor family, when I started to work I had study loan to pay that took my few years to clear. Eventually I save and invest for years and build an investment portfolio which is about 10 times of my yearly salary and generate passive income close to 20% of my annual salary.

So you do not have the 1st hand information, and your above statement is only limited on you.
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poolcarpet
post Feb 22 2013, 03:38 PM

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i have to disagree here... RM300/RM600 per month, using dollar cost averaging and investing into good unit trusts is a good move. not everyone is willing to take the risk in stocks and for other investments, it's not feasible if it's just RM300 per month. whatever it is, continue saving the RM300/RM600, continuously increase it and keep on investing! rclxms.gif


QUOTE(kinwing @ Feb 22 2013, 03:26 PM)
300 or 600 is insignificant for investment and not cost effective. Go save enough up to RM3k or above before you start to invest, and most importantly get yourself an emergency fund just in case you lost your job.

For me it's simple, when I have a 6-month salary size of emergency fund, I'll pour all my savings and bonuses into investment portfolio, and normally my month savings is around 30% of my monthly currently salary.
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poolcarpet
post Feb 25 2013, 11:14 AM

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Yes, but you have to calculate any fees charged by bank for withdrawal... e.g. some banks will charge certain amount if you withdraw the excess payment, e.g. RM25 per withdrawal.

So assuming your prop loan interest rate is 4.4%, AND it is daily rest calculation, then I think it is better to put extra funds into the loan account because every RM1000 you put in 'saves' you RM3.67 per month, vs earning FD of RM2.54 per month (assuming 3.05% rate, monthly FD). I use this method smile.gif

However, you need to consider the RM25 charge, so if you're putting in more or think you will not touch the funds for a bit longer, then it's worth it to reduce the home loan using this method but yet still have liquid funds, e.g.

Scenario 1: RM50000 excess funds put in saves RM183 per month vs RM127 earned via FD. The difference is already more than RM25 which is what you have to pay should you need to take out any portion of the RM50k

Scenario 2: RM10000 excess funds put in for 3 months, difference per month is RM36.67-RM25.41 = RM11.26, over 3 months it's RM33.78, again it's more than the RM25 withdrawal fee.



QUOTE(foolc @ Feb 25 2013, 10:53 AM)
isnt it better to dump the rm12k emergency funds into the housing loan which is flexible? can withdraw with notice to banks within a few days or some have atm card to withdraw anytime?
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poolcarpet
post Feb 25 2013, 11:25 AM

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true... so in terms of maximizing $$ then it's better to put into housing loan to reduce the interest charged.. RM25 is small pizza only tongue.gif

QUOTE(foolc @ Feb 25 2013, 11:21 AM)
the rm25 is just like a cost of dinner ...small amout to pay if emercency need money
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