Well I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's going to be a turbulant could of seasons at least until the ownership issue is sorted and even then, the team will take time to rebuild itself again. Hodgson did do a good job with Fulham no doubt. He made them tough to beat especially at home. The problem is they went out not to lose games rather than to win them. I just think it's a little confusing sometimes. If we are going to play 2 up front, it should indicate that we want to go for the win, but then you instruct both Poulsen and Lucas to stay behind the half way line, leaving the forward players with very little support. The only option is to boot the ball up to them which is exactly what pissed Agger off, leading to his criticism of our tactics.

I don't remember morale being super low after Cisse broke his leg. Let's be honest, he wasn't a fulcrum like Torres or Gerrard is. He was certainly a character with his outlandish hair cuts, outrageous suits and flamboyant persona but his influence on the pitch was minimal. Carragher breaking his leg, now that was certainly a morale breaker. In any case, our problems lie far deeper. It has to do with the ownership of the club which affects many facets of club football. How would you feel if you worked for a company which could go broke at any time? Employees would be speculating and without job security, morale will definitely be affected. The future of the club is at stake here, let's not sugar coat it or bury it under false optimism.

I'm not surprised that Hodgson is being criticised. Some posters had already noted that he has his limitations, having never achieved anything major in his career thus far. He isn't the most charasmatic of managers either, preferring to come across as amicable and non-confrontational. You could see it coming really, especially when I saw posts building him up as our saviour' just because Fulham reached the final of a competition we got eliminated from. Optimism is good, but you cannot be blind to realism. I fear that by 'building' a team, he is actually creating more work for the next manager in line for the host seat. By bringing in distinctively average players late in their prime, we can no longer hope to wheel and deal as their values will plumet as each season goes by. There will be a great deal of pressure on the academy to churn out bright talent, and also on new owners (if we ever have any) to fork out a sizeable transfer kitty.

Embrace the truth.

No one is shooting you down. I think we all agree that a shot of optimism is good.

The problem I have with your statements, it they lack facts backing them up and without facts or at least some form of justification, it looks like nothing more than wishful thinking.

I do remember that night in Istanbul, very vividly but how many times in our illustrious history have we come back in similar fashion keeping in mind that we've been around since 1892? Miracles can happen in the context of one game but the issues we face need problem solutions, not prayer. I get frustrated whenever I see Hodgson sitting on the bench, rubbing his chin instead of discussing tactics with Sammy Lee because it leaves me wondering if he has solutions. More often than not, real problems require real solutions.

I do believe in miracles but I do not believe in blind optimism.

I will note this posting just as I noted the one you posted when we played the mancs and you predicted a win, again. What makes you think we will win this time round, other than extreme doses of positivity?

I think it's safe to assume that all managers need to fight for their survival from day one. It is commonplace these days for managers to lose their jobs just months into their tenures. I don't think Hodgson every assumed his job was safe. I personally don't think it has as much to do with which players he fields but rather where he fields them. I honestly don't see a big gap in quality between Poulsen and Lucas and I doubt replacing one with the other will change our fortunes much. We have deployed the 4-4-2 a number of times this season but have yet to address the fact that there is often a gulf of empty space between the front two and the rest of the team. It's why I said that Hodgson should push the midfield further up the park if he does intend to go for three points especially when we are at home against teams like Sunderland.



Hardly a call for optimism given the results from fielding them together in recent times.

It isn't as much a "hostile" situation is it is a high pressured one. The Anfield hot seat was at one time much sought after and even now, there is a great deal of pressure on the manager because of the expectations of fans. This has all however nothing to do with the method is which managers choose to put instructions across. It has to do with them giving instructions at all. Mmm sorry but I don't get your point on Rafa shouting or Houllier having a heart attack.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Sep 29 2010, 02:49 PM

The thing is I know we have good players which adds to the frustration. Last season, we got posters downplaying our defeats to the likes of teams like Portsmouth, despite the fact that almost each and every player in our first eleven is a full fledged international for decent international sides. It isn't as though we have a team of internationals from Maldova, Faroe Islands or Fiji. It is therefore really agitating when we struggle against weak sides.

"Form is temporary but class is permanent". I subscribe to this belief but we aren't talking about a player going through a bad patch here. We are talking about a club going through some real problems. You are talking about a club who on a commercial front has fallen way behind our rivals. The mancs may have woes of their own but from a commercial standpoint, they are one of the biggest brands in the world. I am proud of our illustrious past, culture and traditions but it is true that we cannot continue to live in the past. It is true that we cannot hope to gain more fans by preaching about how much Shankly means to us (it hasn't worked here has it?). Fact of the matters is that the mass market does not care. If you are successful, you get fans and when you have these fans, you need to milk them dry, something we failed to do when we were the top dog in England.

Class is indeed permanent but we have to embrace reality and accept that class may be something we are devoid off at the moment.

I can't fantom who might want to manage us in the state that we are in, bar SVG. Expectations are high and transfer funds are almost non-existent. For a high profile manager it will be like signing his own death warrant.

What I said:



What you said:

When did I disagree? I've repeated time and time again that the source of the motivation is from the uncertainty of the club's future and there is a general consensus that morale will be lifted when it's sorted out.



I'm not going to debate assumptions because it will never end. I'll start by commenting on a point you brought you, that Liverpool have never really been caught up with business and money until the last decade, or even less. This further reinforces my point that we never capitalised on our success back in the 80's. We were the last Premiership club to have our own website and we never had a Commercial Director until the appointment of Ian Ayre in 2007. I've no doubt that we have a pretty large global following but we never saw it fit to tap on them until recently, hence the appointment of Ayre. Just to add, we have only just recently launched our own TV station. Instead of leading the trend, we are now followers. Do read this interview with Ayre if you haven't already. It gives readers an idea of what we could have done much earlier to ensure our commercial value is higher than it is now. Yes we have a large following but up until recently, we didn't have proper communication channels with our fans whether it be via the internet, TV, LFC stores, email, etc. http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news...s-with-ian-ayre

Since the appointment of Ayre, we've begun to look into channels and issues we previously overlooked. Here is a simple example, the Liverbird which was never trademarked until recently. I can't even begin to imagine how much we've lost over the years (http://www.football-marketing.com/2010/09/14/new-deal-could-earn-liverpool-football-club-millions-in-lost-revenue/).

I'm going to touch a little on sponsorship. Prior to Standard Chartered, our partnership with Carlsberg was the longest standing in the Premiership. This 'symbiotic' relationship cost them $7 million pounds yearly (http://soccerlens.com/english-premier-league-club-sponsors/19279/). In 2006, Tottenham signed a deal with sponsors, Mansion worth at least $8.5 million pounds yearly and Spurs have won next to nothing in years. In contrast we won the Champions League in 2005 and went all the way to the finals again in 2007. Can you imagine how many more eyeballs Carlsberg got over the course of the tournament? Why Rick Parry stuck with Carlsberg for so long remains a mystery. Man Utd rake in $14.5 million pounds a year from AIG. We have only just recently agreed to a $20 million pound a year deal with Standard Chartered which does suggest we still have status. It's just frustrating that it took this long to capitalise on it.

I don't actually disagree with anything you've said here and my take is that all of the above should have been done or at least planned, earlier. By appointing our first Commercial Director in 2007 is a step forward but it's discerning to note that the club never seriously looked into it when we were regularly competing for honours.



What is your definition of "class team"? If it's the football on the pitch, then it's been awhile since I've seen class. We played brilliant football when I first started watching under Dalglish and we played some exciting football under Evans. In the last decade, it is my opinion that there were more boring games than there were brilliant ones, bar the season we finished 2nd.

If you are referring to the club as a whole, which by your reference to past tragedies I assume you are, then yes, Liverpool is a club with class but times have changed and we are only slowly realising that as much as the population of Liverpool would like to keep the club Scouse and local, it needs the support of fans and investors worldwide to compete. The thing is you cannot sell "class' to fans, especially if they do not care about history which is clearly the case these days. I've come across numerous mancs and kopites who have never heard of the Munich Air Disaster or Hillsborough. I've met numerous who have no idea who Duncan Edwards, Dennis Law, Matt Busby, Ian St. John, Emelyn Hughes or Bill Shankly are. Fans know the name of Liverpool Football Club but few can tell you why they support us. This is leading me to believe that by and large, class is overrated as much as I hate to say it. Liverpool have always tried to avoid losing our identity by selling ourselves to the global market fearing that traditions and values will be lost and diluted over time. It's happening right now.

Mate, I'm not here to be popular or politically correct. I offer my views just as any other and my pessimism was cultivated over years, not just one season. This doesn't mean I don't watch games and go ballistic when we score. You can ask those who have watched games with me. I have no control over who goes into depression for posters are always welcomed to counter my views with well formed opinions, and this may even help change the way I see things but I have yet to come across any unfortunately. Suffice to say, a pat on the back accompanied by a "it's ok, everything will be alright, cheer up", won't suffice. I hope to see concrete reasons for optimism pretty soon a good sign would be seeing the back of those damn yanks, or damn yank as it may be now.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Sep 30 2010, 02:21 PM

Alcohol brings out our true selves I believe.

My point is that whilst I agree fans should get behind their teams and support them regardless the circumstances, I don't think "lamenting" about what could be better or done differently is wrong. The only way to improve is to pick on the flaws.

Yesterday marked the 29th year since Shankly took his last breath and amidst all the turmoil surrounding the club now, I feel it's apt to take some time out to remember the passing of a truly great man.

Bill Shankly
(2nd September 1913 - 29th September 1981)

GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Sep 30 2010, 04:44 PM


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I'm not as critical when it comes to our wheeling and dealing. We don't really spend a lot on a single player bar Cisse, Torres, Aquilani and Johnson. I'm surprised that buyers offered to take the likes of Bruno Cheyrou, Salif Diao, Josemi and Anthony Le Tallec off our hands so I'm not complaining.

I failed to mention this earlier but the fact that we've never looked for investors to increase the capacity at Anfield until recent years despite have such a huge global appeal is also a matter of concern. I know the ground sharing issue was hugely opposed by Liverpool fans but if we can't find finance for it, we aren't left with too many options. Inter and AC share the San Siro and there is little reason, sentiment aside that Liverpool and Everton can't given that both sets of fans practically live with one another. Assuming we play 25 home games in a season (Premiership & Europe) and had an extra 20,000 seats, how much more would that add up to?

Our reputation as a commercially viable team is quickly diminishing with performances like these. A week ago we made Northampton look like a Premiership side and now Utrecht look like a Champions League side. We need to start moving the ball about faster in the final third. Not many positives to note so far. Could easily be behind by now.

Hodgson was never the popular choice but we didn't have many options. Sven Goran Eriksson was the only one to thrust his hands up like an over eager school kid looking to impress his teacher. Sven however has a less than impressive managerial record after leaving Lazio. I really need to reiterate that fans need to get real and manage their own expectations. Many were over enthusiastic by Hodgson's appointment simply because he took Fulham to last season's Europa Cup final and because they were hard to beat at home. Some even saw his appointment as a fortune changing move but you really need to get a reality check. It is clear as day that Hodgson is a stop gap option. Things are not going to improve under current ownership and he's here to prevent us from sliding down the slippery slope we are on, nothing more. Why do you think he was only given a 2 year contract, instead of 5 live previous managers? Do not expect him to perform miracles.

Ever wonder why managers who do well at midtable sides like Sam Allardyce, Steve McLaren, Alan Curbishley, Roy Hodgson and to an extent Martin O'Neill never end up at the reigns of a big club? This isn't fantasty football and unless you have a deeper understanding of the game and club management, it's logical to assume that a manager whose midtable side over achieves can bring the same level of success to a big club, but it isn't as clear cut. It may be too soon to tell but Hodgson looks a little over his head. He may be adept at getting the best out of your average footballer but it's different dealing with superstars. You need to have a pretty big reputation to earn the respect of star players and have them do what you want them to do. It's probably the first time in his entire career that Hodgson has had to deal with this and at the moment, he certainly looks out of his depth.

With a big side, you also constantly have cameras and microphones shoved in your face. Journalists are cunning little creatures and will pick up on every word you say, often sensationalising them. What you say in front of the camera gets plastered on the front pages in the sports section, and gets screened on major sports channels. Players and fans pick up on this and all you need is to say something wrong e.g."we won't win the title", and you can easily destroy any morale within the team and amongst the fans. Hodgson has to realise that he is no longer at an over achieving club where he could do or say no wrong, and he is now at a club who is constantly in the spotlight.

I have to give Hodgson some credit though. He did make Fulham a tough nut to crack at home but while it's fine to play not to lose when you are the underdog, you cannot adopt the same mentality when you are at a bigger side, and are expected to beat mediocre opposition at home especially. From what I've seen, I just don't know if he has the winning mentality. Even when we go forward, we are still so cautious at the back, reluctant to push our midfield players into advanced positions. While it's acceptable to play route 1 football when you are the weaker side, you cannot do so with the talent we have at our disposal, something Gerard Houllier found out. I share Agger's frustration, I really do. We should be playing the ball on the deck and I really wish that Agger would be given a start ahead of Skrtel but Hodgson seems to have a preference for defenders who adopt the safety first approach by booting the ball aimlessly up the park. We have ample ball players further up the pitch in the likes of Cole, Jovanovic, Gerrard, Torres and Mereiles who are pretty comfortable with the ball at their feet but there is a huge gap between Reina (who incidentally is an excellent ball player for a goalkeeper) and our advanced players. Lucas, Poulsen, Skrtel and Carragher have limited passing range and often either give the ball away or boot it aimlessly up the park. Again, I am not convinced that Hodgson knows how to bring the best out of these players, hence his route 1 approach.

As poorly as we played this morning, I can't say I'm surprised given the way things have been going this season. Forget what happens on the pitch, the overriding issue of ownership needs to be resolved and until then, it's like I said much much earlier, see you on the other side of the storm.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Oct 1 2010, 12:05 PM

Do not confuse my rant for new owners with having a transfer kitty. I do feel that managers should make the best of what we have which is why I was disappointed when Rafa kept asking for more money. I truly believe that we are capable of playing better football with the talent we currently have at our disposal, and that we are playing well below ourselves now hence my rant on Hodgson who I believe is out of his depth, but in all fairness is probably doing the best he can.

New owners will not only inject more cash for transfers but with our debt situation resolved, players can be rest assured we won't do a Leeds and have problems paying their salaries. With new owners, we can finally look and plan for the future beginning with looking to finance a new stadium. Don't limit yourself to thinking that it's all about how much we have to buy players. The whole club's financial health will improve and this in turn, will give players like Gerrard and Torres who chose to remain at the club the reassurance that we are building a team to win titles. Yes some players are content with sitting on the bench just to earn money but some have ambition and when the club doesn't have any, morale is affected.

Once again, new owners doesn't only mean more transfer funds. Look at the bigger picture. The above are just some examples of positive changes that come with the resolution of our situation with the yanks.

To address commitment issues with some of the players, I would like to pick out what he said when asked about the "This Is Anfield" plaque along the tunni. "It's to remind the players who they are playing for, and our opponents, who they are playing against".

I disagree for reasons stated earlier. The club at present has no direction and does not appear to have a long term vision. Instability within the ranks is causing a lot of disharmony and this is affecting not just the morale of the players, but of the fans as well. Instead of building for the future, we brought in aging journeymen.

Will new ownership change all of this? No guarantees but what's worse than someone injecting practically no money into the club despite the promise of buying top players and financing a new
Stadium

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Added on October 2, 2010, 8:52 amFirstly let me reassure you that I have a very active life.

Secondly let me tell you what I think of your boyfriend. I've held my tongue for a long time now trying to be patient but his blind faith has really annoyed me to no end. He can't back up any of his statements with fact or even reasonable logic. He keeps predicting victories over teams reminding us to mark his words, with no apparent reason. At the very least he could show that his words aren't hollow. I myself have stated several reasons why there is cause for concern beginning with my rant on the commercial aspect of the club to what I think of Roy Hodgson. If you feel any of what I said is wrong, please feel free to counter with your own logic and reasoning, not preach blind optimism like Digilife. It was refreshing at the start but it's fast becoming overbearing. He asks those who display pessimism to support another club not realizing that the reason we are concerned is because we love the club and we know why. Proof? Our statements are backed up by fact or educated opinions. When a person does not have this it leads me to believe they don't even know why they support the club in the first place despite claiming to have more than 30 years of support under his belt. I really dislike criticizing Liverpool fans but I cannot tolerate those who come across as not knowing anything about what's happening behind the scenes, criticizing those that have done some reading.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Oct 2 2010, 08:52 AM

Lateral thinking requires reasoning as much as it does creativity. His points have neither. Thing is he's been a fan for 30 over years leading me to believe he's older than I at least so it can't be something he picked up in school surely.

I don't mean to sound harsh but him asking us to go support another club for stating facts and opinions he doesnt acknowledge was infuriating.

No disrespect to Blackpool but a win against them at Anfield no less, should be guaranteed. If we can't beat the likes of them at home, we can forget about qualifying for Europe altogether next season.

I just hope Hodgson doesn't elect to play route 1 football against a newly promoted side accustomed to defending against teams that do. Keep the ball on the ground and work the defenders. We should be able to get some setpieces in dangerous areas if we do. I would really like to see Agger start in place of Skrtel to build from the back.

The mancs are also fighting for the title while we have dropped into the relegation zone. How we play should not depend on ther results because it isn't them we are battling this season. I don't know if you truly believe we will be battling for the Premiership this season but a quick reality check will tell you that we are aiming for a top 8 finish bearing in mind that in recent seasons the top 2 have been runaway leaders. Finishing third could mean finishing a many as 10 points behind the winners. The gulf is closing but it is still there.

The formula tonight is simple. If Hodgson persists on playing longballs up to Torres, we are done. Blackpool have just been promoted from a league where route 1 football is still pretty much alive and are accustomed to winning things in the air.