Hackwire, tao has nothing to do with deities, gods, karma, morality, definitely not joss sticks.

It is the book of the universe and how we should cultivate our lives according to the "law" of the universe. More of a hardcore theory for qi gong practitioners.

Chinese are horrible with religion. They lack consistency and basically "anything goes". The concepts and terminologies are mainly made up due ignorance.

Most chinese do not practice "Buddhism". Buddhism is deeper than all of that.


That is not "tao". Most people have misconceptions about taoism. Taoism has always been only Lao Zi's teachings in his Dao De Jing he wrote and left before he disappeared forever. Taoism has nothing religious in it. When you read Dao De Jing, it reads like science.

Again this is not Taoism. Refer to my reply above. It was never infused with Buddhism.

Buddhism in China is not really infused with "ghost god BS" either. There are IIRC, six different sects of Buddhism in China. The one I'm slightly familiar with is Zen Buddhism. All these sects are heavily influenced by martial arts and Qi Gong Theory. Zen Buddhism is the most influenced of them all. They barely have anything impractical. Most of the teachings are based on cultivation of yourself. They offer little to no "ghost god bs". IIRC, they were also the first sect that started the idea of "if you do not work, you do not eat". Pretty admirable IMO.

Unless I interpret things wrongly, I can never fathom why Buddhists ITT believes in deities. I personally think the original texts are not to be taken "seriously" and they serve as a literal meaning of the state of mind.

This is why taoism is often misunderstood. I can't be too sure with buddhism, can someone familiar with buddhism correct me if i'm wrong?

You raise an interesting point.

The thing is, buddhism is very pragmatic. At the end of the day, it is how you train yourself to reach the state of enlightenment. The main reason I believe that monks do not kill is part of the training to reduce the intention of violence. A still water is incredibly hard to achieve. It is a necessary step to reach enlightenment

Agama sesat I would put it as. Though it is harshly put, I can't find the proper term in english. It's mainly driven by superstition. Superstition is caused by stupidity and the lack of technology and science in the earlier periods in china.

You can't really study taoism through wikipedia. It is too heavily integrated into the chinese culture and the chinese language. You'd have to read Chinese literature and texts. There are only a handful of people in the whole china that really understands taoism and has reached the state of level where lao zi reached thousands of years ago. These people do not show their faces. They are unknown. Most people just "interpret" and "read" taoism. You can't. Taoism cannot be read, it must be practiced as well.

At this point I might come across as argumentative for no reason, but rest assure I'm not, there is no such thing as "taoism" in malaysia. It was neither taoism or buddhism at the first place.

To say that they are "infused" with chinese culture would be saying that there are traces of taoism and buddhism. Truth is, it is something else instead. The chinese simply tagged their own brand of religion with buddhism and taoism.

It is 民间迷信教 (common folk superstition religion), has nothing to do with taoism nor buddhism. More of a superstitious teachings that is passed down through the ancestors. IMO, the first step is actually to acknowledge the fact that there was no "infusion" at the first place.

This post has been edited by LittleGhost: Jan 19 2012, 12:36 AM

My point earlier, those are not "buddhism". It was never infused. If it was, there will never be superstition in it's sub parts.

I know it is hard to understand what I'm trying to convey. This is a very huge misconception that is driven into the bones and flesh of many chinese. I was fortunate that my first few comic books during my very younger days were chai zi chongs short comics + actual text of Dao De Jing, and zen buddhism of the 六祖, I never had that misconception at all. Yes, these comics are awesome. Kids should read these.

That depends on the objective. What is the singing for? The chant "amitabha" actually has its utility. It is meant to be chanted over and over again until there is NOTHING else in the mind and body other than the chant amitabha. This is a whole different level of concentration and being at one with yourself. Is the singing meant to do anything like this? Again, most people don't practice buddhism, they "think they do".

The core of buddhism is very pragmatic. Anything that brings you to eternal bliss will do.

These are side dressings. They are cherry picked to appear "buddhism". It is not buddhism. The "agama sesat" followers never practice any of these. The reason why one has to be clear whether it is or NOT buddhism is very important. We do not want to mislead.

>implying dupe

Serious talk la mangkuk.

Last post before I sleep. I really love threads like these.

Just to be clear, I'm far from being a real buddhist/taoist. I'm far too ambitious and an ******* to actually practice any of the teachings they offer. Apa boleh buat, I'm only 20++. I like taoism and buddhism, but at the moment I don't live up to it.

Don't call me out on that ya?

Perhaps after my hormones dies down when i grow older, I can get more serious into really practicing the way of cultivating my life.

Now, when you actually practice Buddhism, what do you strive for? Do you worship the deities? What is your ultimate goal? I interpret the deities as the state of mind. They were suppose to be taken literally.

EDIT: I think it is best for me to explain a bit of my background so it is easier for you to answer my questions. I have a background in Qi Gong. (not the qi gong you see on TV, TV is all BS) The body and the mind is cultivated and practiced as one. You must practice both of these without fail. Now in Buddhism, it is vastly different. Unless you're from Shao Lin, the only part you train is your mind. This is why many great masters simply "die". The concept of Buddhism during practice is that the body is simply an obstacle. Based on my understanding of buddhism and qi gong, they are going for the same goal when it comes to the state of mind. Do typical buddhists go for this? Is this your ultimate goal? Or do you simply study what is available in buddhism? Since buddha's actual words and teachings were not directly from himself, from our point of view (in qi gong), the deities and realms are meant to be taken literally. They represent the state of mind. If you're wondering, I do actually think the later followers were not exactly right when it comes to interpreting what buddha really meant about the deities.

Problem, should buddhists really care for deities, the realms of existence, the concept of heaven and hell, the karma and so on? These are just the tip of the iceberg. There are far important issues in buddhism no?

Don't quote me on this, I've read this and heard this from a qi gong practitioner. The books journey to the west(written by a taoist) and the book The Investiture of the Gods (written by a monk) was a spat between taoism and buddhism. Now if we assume this anecdote as true, the books have pretty "imaginative" items. However, again it can be interpreted as a practitioner's state of mind. Should these things be taken literally? This is my question.

EDIT2: An interesting Zen Buddhism quote: “遇神杀神，遇佛杀佛”。 Translation: If you meet god, you kill god, If you meet buddha, you kill buddha. This sentence implies during the transitional stage of meditation, one will experience many "imaginative" things. Qi Gong says that these are "projections" from yourself and should never be taken serious nor should one be attached to it. Based on this, shouldn't we have taken the concept of deities literally?

This post has been edited by LittleGhost: Jan 19 2012, 11:08 AM

Well i'm not questioning the legitimacy of the text. I'm questioning the interpretation and the importance placed on such knowledge instead of actual practice.


Now being one of the better known buddhists in the forum, you seem to be well read in the typical texts. My question for you would be thus, how do you practice buddhism? Do you simply learn? Or is it real practice to achieve greater heights in the state of mind your primary goal? Do you practice like a zen buddhist?