to be frank, some composers who just compose a song for the sake of making money really ruin the word compose itself..technology, instrument & etc is not the point to compose a real song, instead the song must have it soul..it must have the intention, meaning and relations with anything so that people who listen to it can relate..

better/ advanced tools doesnt guarantee u a better song..

Better technology and gears doesn't guarantee better music, but if you choose to ignore them you're most definitely not going anywhere far. I'm referring this to people who plays a bit of instrument and think they're making music already. They're actually making very rough demos. I'm talking about grabbing all the available technology and techniques to equip yourself with the ability to compose, create and produce studio quality music.

Let me put this in a simple way - if you record a demo with guitars, keyboard, drums, bass, and maybe some strings, plus the vocals (the typical local way), and send it to any A&R guy, it's rather hard to stand out from all those demos that they're receiving each day, unless you've got a super wonderful melody and they'll buy it and get someone else to produce it. And if you've got the same great melody, but nicely recorded and arranged in the proper DAW/ sequencer with the proper production techniques and effects, sounds, samples, etc etc, it's a lot more likely that people would buy your demo. It's not really that expensive (of course, relatively) to produce such studio quality stuffs at all, just that most people choose to ignore it.

I'll give you an example - the late 90's and early 2000's were the era when Cheiron Music of Sweden conquered the whole pop music scene (I'lll leave you to do the research). I'm not saying that they're making the greatest music in the world, but this is the example that I've always tell people. The reason they're so successful was because, well of course, some nice hooky melodies, but most importantly, top quality production. They'd always send demos that are very near to the final mix and they only needed the recording artists to provide their vocals on top of it. Once they've got the vocals ready, the music is always ready for sale. If they started out making rough demos with simple piano and guitar strummings, basic drums and strings, it's almost impossible for their demos to have got noticed by big artists, because at the end of the day, the labels would know that these are rough demos that they'd still need someone else to fully produce and arrange it to become what'd be the final sound and final mix.

I'll give you another example - RedOne, also from Sweden, recently kinda popular for having produced and sell records for Lady Gaga (Just an example, not that I liked his music or song, but let's just focus on the process), arranges and produces his composition on his Logic Pro almost entirely on his Mac (of course he does have a decent studio with decent hardware) and get the final sound ready before bringing them to Gaga, who'd later on meet him up somewhere in a NYC studio and get the vocals done in a day or two, and get the rest of the minor parts done and mastered there. Same goes for David Guetta, and actually most producers in the Western.

Well I guess if you're too stuck with playing live band music then you probably won't get what I mean. I know...

This post has been edited by denis_t: Oct 1 2010, 09:46 AM

and yet you quoted me...

by the way, technology is killing this music industry.

How did technology kill the industry? Take away the creativity?

i won't elaborate, but to answer your question - yes. technology can take away creativity, very dangerously easily...

Denis,
It seems to me like to me like you are advising against using the old formula of the Beetles era. Yet now you are advocating the use of a decade old formula (Cheiron Music, Lady Gaga ..) to be the way to go. I wonder how long will this formula hold. Lets just say this becomes the new standard (everyone do near final quality), will it still not come down to creativity skills?

This post has been edited by faceless: Oct 1 2010, 03:07 PM

Well, I understand what you mean. So we have to look at labels as companies which sell products. They sell music as products, so we must give them great production that sells for sure, they wants something which is ready to go and dont want to waste resources to reproduce the a crappy demo, they could save a lot of money from this.

But one thing is labels now seem prefer same sounding music. The music we hear nowadays is pretty much the same, artists and bands has slowly losing their identical and creativity, the artistry elements is getting removed easily from the art of music. Music is not an art anymore. We can easily DIY records in our bedroom since so many advance technology software and tools are available, but how many of us can record drum sound well, arranging well, mixing well....... How many unsigned band can actually achieve this on a technical level? Label probably wouldn't consider signing a band unless their album was recorded and ready. We can say that live band music and recording music is totally different thing.

no offense, but i don't accept your comparisons of live band musician who just kick start their journey in music independently with such an icon in Gaga..

Lots of demo was produce under free labels, with no sponsor in terms of funds, resource and idea. Probably not a masterpiece, but all the hard works put into the effort of producing a song should be recognized as well.

I mean we talked about composing a song here, in fundamental what is the definition a song. I condone the use of technology, but without proper arrangement & intention..it will just be another song. Period.

little ice is damn right - technology can take away creativity! I remember there's an era, probably the 2006- 2008 in the EDM scene, especially in trance music where technology suddenly became so accessible and everyone started producing music that sounded very similar, using the very same samples, presets, effects, etc etc and the whole trance scene just suddenly became so repeatitively boring..people didn't event bother to create something different.

The accessibility to all sort of technology also means that more crap music willl not be filtered and got into the music industry. Suddenly everyone just became music producers.

@la bella - I don't quite understand what you're trying to say (sorry, haven't been able to sleep since the past 30 hours) but I know you're quite right in all those things you said!

@hidzwan - I agree with all the stuffs you said. I never denied the importance of the fundamental of a great song. I was just suggesting that it's a very helpful plus if you could produce a ready to go and up to standard demo. Of course they're still bands in the US who can write really great music but can't produce everything by themselves, but they don't just stop there, coz these people would usually have their stuffs nicely produced in the end by hiring experienced producers instead of being happy with those very "live band performance" standard records.

Hi, I want to start composing songs for myself, so I need songwriters who are experienced in composing music that could discuss with me regarding the styles of music I want to create a new song together...I'm experienced in music but not composing T_T

Interested please email me: jasminensy@hotmail.com

or reply to this thread >_<..

Are you looking for people who is at the same location with you so can meet up or can do it through internet?

Im interested as well but have no experience. Wanna learn.

to learn composing, the procedures are:

1. copy a song, completely. learn how and why they use the chords, and melodic approach.

2. vary the melody a bit, see if you can come out with something nice.

3. compose a new melody line, out of maybe 4 bars, 8 bars, or whole verse, or whole song.

4. vary the chords a little, see if you can come out with something make sense.

5. come out with a chords progressions, and compose new melody for it. start with 4 bars, then 8, and so on until you're able to compose a whole song.



style of music need a lot of analyzation and see what kind of chords and melody line normally used. you said you have experiences in music so you should be able to understand those theory and harmony studies.

don't confuse composing and arranging, they're different. composing is just melody and chords, arranging is to put in intro, interlude, outro, and decide how piano/drums/bass/guitars/etc play in the particular song - it's like composing, but the purpose is to enhance the song.

If like that then I feel arranging is easier than compose la. Compose need very fresh ideas for melody and other stuff. Every song need new melody and stuff.

Arrange even different song got same arrangement but different melody will sound different.

AM I right, sifu?

this.ia.a.ball>>Erm I'm fine with both meeting ups or online..I just need a little guidance and help actually >_<

little ice>>thanks for the comment. Yes, I have a grd8 music theory and I know how to compose classical music. What I'm not sure is like what you say, the arranging of music. Therefore I think I need a songwriting partner to start up composing and arranging an entire song with me...

Are both of you interested?~

you'll learn so much more if you DIY.

Little ice,

How about making a demo for composition, to what extend does the song requires arranging? Complete drum/vocal/fine tuning?

record the vocal as good as possible is essential, for the purpose of properly present the lyrics and melody, you're selling the compositions.

regarding arrangement, there're demos as simple as guitar + vocal. as long as you presented all the lyrics and melody, it's fine. even if doing full arrangement, usually it's not going to be full arrangement, just basic rhythm sections and maybe a layer of extra strings or synths etc.

there's no rules, actually. it's determined by your effort - if you put in more effort into your demo, the chance of selling your song (whether to labels or simply release it publically) is higher. but then, there're also hits that're just piano+vocal or guitar+vocal...

litleice, can u help us?

Im not in Malaysia so cant meet up hope can get online lesson

i tot i given my lessons already? at post #3 and #6...

oh like that only.. Haha..

K then time to practical. How should we start? Or like u said is only individual thing cant learn together 1?