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 The Zerg Strategy v1.0, Cheer for the overmind!

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quest_5692
post Jan 28 2012, 12:11 AM

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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Jan 27 2012, 11:18 PM)
Sure thing.  I'm at work right now and won't be home until around 9am tomorrow.

ZvT, I go 15hatch 16pool 18gas 17overlord. My first 100 gas goes to speed and make 4 lings. What I do from then on depends on what I scout.  Regardless, I make sure I don't miss my injects and creep spread.  4 queens do the trick for me.  One ling go to the nearest xelnaga tower to my opponent's base, the 3 stand guard in front of his natural.  I constantly poke in to look at his wall or to check if he takes his natural.

I build buildings depending on how much gas i have.  Above, I mentioned that my first 100 gas goes to ling speed.  Against a Terran who does marine-tank pushes, I go: next 50 gas goes to Baneling Nest, next 100 gas goes to lair, next 100 goes to +1 melee, next 200 goes to Spire, next 150 goes to baneling speed and save gas from there, for mutas and +1 air attack.  My mutas come out around the 10/11-minute mark.  By this time, I should (or hope to) have a 3rd and a macro-hatch.  Behind the muta harass, I go hivetech, get more upgrades and take more bases for more gas.

As for ZvP, I personally go 15hatch 16pool and delay my gas until around 30 supply.  A handful of Protoss players in the Gold/Plat leagues go FFE, so I could safely take a 3rd around 20-ish supply, sometimes even as early as 16 (after the 16pool).  But I don't forget to do is take the Roach Warren and Evo Chamber at around the 7minute mark then make (at least) one spore crawler per base when the evo pops. 

I've heard over pro Zerg streams (Sheth, Destiny, CatZ, among others), "do not hatch-first against a Protoss". That's fine, you could go 13/14pool 15/16hatch (and 16 or 21 hatch again if he goes FFE).  This build allows you to get queens/spines/lings earlier against one-base protoss all-ins.

But, yeah, this is just me. Doesn't work all the time, but it pays to have one solid build per match-up under your sleeve.  Still took me to top 16 Platinum in NA last season (haven't played 1v1 ladder this season, but will go back when I get my new laptop).
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the do not hatch first is not against 1 base all in. a FFE protoss can 100% cannon rush a hatch 1st. basically once you reach master every zerg will jus pool 1st.
EnTaroAdun23
post Jan 28 2012, 12:30 AM

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QUOTE(A-Note @ Jan 28 2012, 12:07 AM)
what do you guys do when its zvz? 10 pool?
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Zergs in Plat league are macro-oriented, so sometimes I go 15hatch 15pool.

Safe build is 13gas 12pool, which according to IdrA (after he lost to Nestea in the Code S Ro32) is "pretty much a hard counter to 10pool baneling".

A nice build I use is Destiny's ZvZ 13roach push:

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


I modify this to keep myself economically ahead, so I eke out a few drones instead of lings and return the drones to gas.

And of course, don't forget the injects.
A-Note
post Jan 28 2012, 12:40 AM

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lol its so fun playing pure queen speedlings 20 queens and others speedling and drones zvz always muta one -.-


Added on January 28, 2012, 12:44 am80+ supplies of lings on suicide mission to destroy enemy base with tons of queens defending againts mutas so fun lol

This post has been edited by A-Note: Jan 28 2012, 12:44 AM
EnTaroAdun23
post Jan 28 2012, 12:58 AM

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QUOTE(quest_5692 @ Jan 28 2012, 12:11 AM)
the do not hatch first is not against 1 base all in. a FFE protoss can 100% cannon rush a hatch 1st. basically once you reach master every zerg  will jus pool 1st.
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Like I said, it doesn't work all the time. But a Protoss who goes forge-first then cannon-rushes cannot take the nexus at 16, which is the normal FFE timing. And I doubt Master protosses need to cannon rush in the first place. The most they would do is pylon block the natural to delay the hatchery, which at this time the Zerg could get the pool or place the 2nd hatch on the 3rd expo (like Ret does).

I also get cannon-rushed myself. I respond by cancelling my natural hatchery (if I can), get ling speed and roach warren and rain the protoss with roaches and lings (or go lair for nydus or spire). Think about how much the Protoss is investing on his cannon-rush: 100 minerals per pylon, 150 minerals per cannon and the lost time delaying his gateway, cybernetics core and warpgate tech.

If I lose, it's fine. Not the end of the world. Like WhiteRa says, "more GG, more skill".
quest_5692
post Jan 28 2012, 01:04 AM

yo chick, im not buaya
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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Jan 28 2012, 12:58 AM)
Like I said, it doesn't work all the time.  But a Protoss who goes forge-first then cannon-rushes cannot take the nexus at 16, which is the normal FFE timing.  And I doubt Master protosses need to cannon rush in the first place.  The most they would do is pylon block the natural to delay the hatchery, which at this time the Zerg could get the pool or place the 2nd hatch on the 3rd expo (like Ret does).

I also get cannon-rushed myself.  I respond by cancelling my natural hatchery (if I can), get ling speed and roach warren and rain the protoss with roaches and lings (or go lair for nydus or spire).  Think about how much the Protoss is investing on his cannon-rush: 100 minerals per pylon, 150 minerals per cannon and the lost time delaying his gateway, cybernetics core and warpgate tech. 

If I lose, it's fine.  Not the end of the world.  Like WhiteRa says, "more GG, more skill".
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well, its not exactly cannon rush, 9 pylon then scout. str8 camp, if zerg wants to hatch 1st, can put down pylon. if zerg decide to hatch at 3rd base only pylon cannon. because 3rd base there no ovie. normally just pylon block cuz zerg will go pool 1st. normally after 9 pylon, if scout pool 1st, then will make forge only nexus. if zerg managed to take hatch, then make nexus 1st. unless you are naniwa...nexus 1st even if your opponent 6 pools...
A-Note
post Jan 28 2012, 01:17 AM

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QUOTE(quest_5692 @ Jan 28 2012, 01:04 AM)
unless you are naniwa...nexus 1st even if your opponent 6 pools...
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wow lol which match isit? i wanna watch xD
EnTaroAdun23
post Jan 28 2012, 01:28 AM

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That's quite an investment for the Protoss to cannon rush wherever the zerg lays down the 2nd/3rd hatch.

I don't know what league you're in, but Plat level, cannon rushes don't happen often. My last ZvPs I played on NA ladder went FFE, 3gate-robo expand, FFE to DT rush, MC-style nexus-cancel 4gate, 2gate mass zealot. The last cannon-rush I remember being done on me was in Taldarim, where the protoss started the cannon rush inside my main base, at a corner where I don't normally scout. He lost. I rained roaches on his base which only had the nexus, gateway, forge, pylon and 16 or so probes. He invested too much on the cannon rush that he didn't get his economy going to put himself in a more advantageous position.

The only one I lost was against the MC-style nexus-cancel 4gate.

EDIT: and yeh, I went hatch-first on all these games.

This post has been edited by EnTaroAdun23: Jan 28 2012, 01:29 AM
A-Note
post Jan 28 2012, 03:15 AM

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on what circumstances do you guys use infestors? =/ neural parasite very hard to use.... once i use it den my infestor dies straight away... the only reason i make infestors are for the fungal only =/ fungal spam finish den can balik rumah d the only few times i make infestors is when there's a huge marine tank ball =/
quest_5692
post Jan 28 2012, 09:37 AM

yo chick, im not buaya
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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Jan 28 2012, 01:28 AM)
That's quite an investment for the Protoss to cannon rush wherever the zerg lays down the 2nd/3rd hatch. 

I don't know what league you're in, but Plat level, cannon rushes don't happen often.  My last ZvPs I played on NA ladder went FFE, 3gate-robo expand, FFE to DT rush, MC-style nexus-cancel 4gate, 2gate mass zealot.  The last cannon-rush I remember being done on me was in Taldarim, where the protoss started the cannon rush inside my main base, at a corner where I don't normally scout.  He lost.  I rained roaches on his base which only had the nexus, gateway, forge, pylon and 16 or so probes.  He invested too much on the cannon rush that he didn't get his economy going to put himself in a more advantageous position.

The only one I lost was against the MC-style nexus-cancel 4gate.

EDIT: and yeh, I went hatch-first on all these games.
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lol, cannon rush is cheap. not protoss. however its common sense, i play with my friends as well, we play all kind of race. its not those bronze from edge of base crawl into your base kind of cannon. build order 9 pylon, forge, as long as you hatchery 1st, put pylon when hatchery is half done, then put cannon, cancel cannon if you cancel hatchery. and the cnanon put right in your face. behind mineral line. use 2 pylon and 1 cannon can wall off. if you cancel, then cancel cannon too, need abit of timing. and at home, the nexus will be delay by about 200~ mineral which is about 2-4 supply only. the thing about FFE cannon rush is you can force your opponent to all in. then you just use 3 cannon defend and chrono 1 stargate voidray. its almost auto win.

if you hatch 1st, you will not have enuf zzergling or queen to save your nat or 3rd base. so the thing protoss need to do is dun over invest. for 1 base, just need 1 cannon. dun make ur home nexus too late den can adi. just prevent them from having 2 base. then they can only do 1 base roach or 1 base baneling. but most of the time zerg will pool 1st. so just pylon block and cancel it when the 4 zergling hit your pylon. also, you need to know the precise timing to put the pylon so that you can cancel it. for 14 pool, 13 pool and 12 pool.

This post has been edited by quest_5692: Jan 28 2012, 09:39 AM
EnTaroAdun23
post Jan 28 2012, 12:26 PM

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LOL. Just, LOL.

I'll wait for you to get to Plat and let's see if you can pull of a cannon rush.

You should try to watch the streams of Ret, Sheth, Destiny, CatZ and IdrA. They sometimes get cannon-rushed by CombatEX or Deezer over their hatch-first builds. Unsurprisingly, our Zerg champions still win. For the simple reason that cannon rushes DO NOT work above Gold league.

The zerg doesn't even need to all-in after he is cannon rushed.

Just think: If cannon-rushing wins PvZ every time, why don't we see it in the pro tournaments?

And a transition to one stargate voidray? LOL. Please. I could have 2 (or possibly even 3) queens out before your void ray arrives at my base.

Get to Plat level playing Zerg as your main race, and maybe, just maybe, you'll learn 3 of the numerous ways to beat it.
quest_5692
post Jan 28 2012, 02:06 PM

yo chick, im not buaya
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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Jan 28 2012, 12:26 PM)
LOL. Just, LOL.

I'll wait for you to get to Plat and let's see if you can pull of a cannon rush. 

You should try to watch the streams of Ret, Sheth, Destiny, CatZ and IdrA.  They sometimes get cannon-rushed by CombatEX or Deezer over their hatch-first builds.  Unsurprisingly, our Zerg champions still win.  For the simple reason that cannon rushes DO NOT work above Gold league.

The zerg doesn't even need to all-in after he is cannon rushed. 

Just think: If cannon-rushing wins PvZ every time, why don't we see it in the pro tournaments? 

And a transition to one stargate voidray?  LOL.  Please.  I could have 2 (or possibly even 3) queens out before your void ray arrives at my base.

Get to Plat level playing Zerg as your main race, and maybe, just maybe, you'll learn 3 of the numerous ways to beat it.
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lol maybe you should know who you are talking with first...you can ask them whats my league. i wasnt trying to undermind you, wait you reach master maybe we can meet in ladder.


Added on January 28, 2012, 2:18 pm from the very beginning i was just trying to say that hatch 1st is vunerable to cannon rush and all protoss has no reason NOT to do so because its cost efficient. but if you are happy with hatch 1st den so be it. since you are pretty happy with your plat league.

This post has been edited by quest_5692: Jan 28 2012, 02:21 PM
evofantasy
post Jan 28 2012, 02:58 PM

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from my personal opinion, i wont suggest opening with a hatch first in ZvP...

this is how a protoss typically FFE in PvZ...
scout at 9pylon...
that probe will scout the pool timing and depending on the timing, the protoss can either 15nexus (pool at 14 or slower), 14forge (early pool) and react accordingly...
the moment the protoss see a hatch first, the protoss is free to do anything (nexus -> gate -> forge then only cannon which is a BIG difference)...
one of my fav thing (and most other high lvl protoss) like to do is the 3pylon block wit a single cannon...
this put the protoss immensely ahead and he can secure his natural wit mere 3 cannons (3 cannons well placed can handle ling/ roach allin with ease)...
and this type of play is really common, it is not a cannon rush which win games downright but it will create a economical snowball effect for the protoss...
in the end, the zerg would need to invest on lings (without speed) which cost larvae and totally make the hatch first useless...
with tat said, u rarely see zergs (high level zergs) open with hatch first anymore due to this...
it is a high risk, low return in ZvP...

by going hatch first as well, ur speed will be significantly delayed...
i am not sure about the protoss below diamond, but whenever i see a gasless zerg i could confidently play as greedy (eco/ tech) as i want as the zerg cant do anyhting to punish me early on...
i can even put the pressure back to him by chrono-ing out my stalker since i know he don't have speed...
with decent micro without ling speed, 1zeal 1stalker can deal tonne of pressure (MC famously streamed his EU game where he killed the zerg off 1 gate worth of chrono units with micro due to the lack of gas from zerg)..
if u dun die to the pressure, losing the map control and scouting information totally hurt ur gameplay a lot as a zerg especially larvae management...

usually when u hatch first, one of the queen would be creeping instead of spawning larvae due to the insufficient resource to use the additional larvae as opposed to a pool first (assuming u do the build n macro right)...
thus as said before, it is high risk for low return...

again, it would depend on styles but those are the current metagame concerning FFE...
this is especially crucial in tournaments map (fixed spawn positions) which allow the 9pylon scout to gain a lot of information and do all of the mentioned above compared to the retarded spawn on ladder...

@entaro
MC is well known to do the 3 pylon cannon build in tournaments...
a few other protoss does it as well...
that is how cannon are used, high level protoss dun win outright wit cannons (and no combatex and deezers are bad example since they dun even join tournaments lolx)
u see it less in GSL since most zergs like DRG opens wit gas pool builds...
EU zergs prefer gasless pool builds...

and queens are not enough to hold off stargate play...
double stargate is still a very very popular build and u will need spores...

=====

personally i dun like to FFE anymore since zergs started going 14gas 14pool and there are risk to FFE without overcommiting to defense unless i managed to sneak some scouting...
after getting punished over and over by good zergs, i made my own PvZ build which is not FFE but good enough to beat most zergs...

ps: i am in the wood league, i dun ladder so dun jz take my word for it =p me noobie that still join tournaments to get owned T.T

=====

unless u are master in NA, dun bring NA into discussion...
their skill level is generally low from bronze to diamond compared to SEA that i can random my way to a 8-0 streak with ease even when i am having 1-2sec delay...


Added on January 28, 2012, 3:03 pm
QUOTE(A-Note @ Jan 28 2012, 01:17 AM)
wow lol which match isit? i wanna watch xD
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to be fair, naniwa didnt blindly nexus first...
he always scout at 9, and use a 2nd probe for 3 spawn maps...
he then chrono his first 2 zeal to pressure n scout...

naniwa play one of the nicest PvZ imho...
just tat he is stubborn wit his FFE =.=
as he said on his twitter "forge fast expand or die trying"

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Jan 28 2012, 03:18 PM
quest_5692
post Jan 28 2012, 03:34 PM

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i meant the game on dual sight in MLG final. leenock went 8 pool, he did nexus 1st. (if i rmb correctly)
Nandeska
post Jan 28 2012, 03:34 PM

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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Jan 28 2012, 12:26 PM)
LOL. Just, LOL.

I'll wait for you to get to Plat and let's see if you can pull of a cannon rush. 

You should try to watch the streams of Ret, Sheth, Destiny, CatZ and IdrA.  They sometimes get cannon-rushed by CombatEX or Deezer over their hatch-first builds.  Unsurprisingly, our Zerg champions still win.  For the simple reason that cannon rushes DO NOT work above Gold league.

The zerg doesn't even need to all-in after he is cannon rushed. 

Just think: If cannon-rushing wins PvZ every time, why don't we see it in the pro tournaments? 

And a transition to one stargate voidray?  LOL.  Please.  I could have 2 (or possibly even 3) queens out before your void ray arrives at my base.

Get to Plat level playing Zerg as your main race, and maybe, just maybe, you'll learn 3 of the numerous ways to beat it.
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Sometimes i play off-race and I still able to cannon rush diamond zergs lol... what quest says is right

This post has been edited by Nandeska: Jan 28 2012, 03:35 PM
A-Note
post Jan 28 2012, 03:47 PM

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archons are pretty scary when you have loads of muta =/
evofantasy
post Jan 28 2012, 05:03 PM

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QUOTE(A-Note @ Jan 28 2012, 03:47 PM)
archons are pretty scary when you have loads of muta =/
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dun engage the archons...
jz run around them keep harassing etc...
get tonnes of base and be ready for roach/BL transition
xcen
post Jan 28 2012, 06:21 PM

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Never get stuck on muta tech against toss. Get the initial 8-10, then work towards T3. Once toss gets enough blink stalkers, no need archon also your mutas will just melt under their ball.

But if your opponent is basically limping after strong muta harass, then of course continuing mutas to finish him off is not a bad idea.
A-Note
post Jan 28 2012, 09:09 PM

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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Jan 28 2012, 12:26 PM)
LOL. Just, LOL.

I'll wait for you to get to Plat and let's see if you can pull of a cannon rush. 

You should try to watch the streams of Ret, Sheth, Destiny, CatZ and IdrA.  They sometimes get cannon-rushed by CombatEX or Deezer over their hatch-first builds.  Unsurprisingly, our Zerg champions still win.  For the simple reason that cannon rushes DO NOT work above Gold league.

The zerg doesn't even need to all-in after he is cannon rushed. 

Just think: If cannon-rushing wins PvZ every time, why don't we see it in the pro tournaments? 

And a transition to one stargate voidray?  LOL.  Please.  I could have 2 (or possibly even 3) queens out before your void ray arrives at my base.

Get to Plat level playing Zerg as your main race, and maybe, just maybe, you'll learn 3 of the numerous ways to beat it.
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i added you d but i tried pm u but theres this thing say you cannot accept msg from ppl not from ur frenlist im Alvirous char code 438
quest_5692
post Jan 28 2012, 10:09 PM

yo chick, im not buaya
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Why Idra never says gg...

NSFW read at own risk
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

yuvster
post Jan 29 2012, 05:41 PM

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QUOTE(quest_5692 @ Jan 28 2012, 10:09 PM)
Why Idra never says gg...

NSFW read at own risk
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

*
DAFUQ did i just read?? :| doh.gif

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