its actually easier than you think so long you dont over extend. and no, you dont lose map control so long you keep the terran contain by sniping him. 4 observers was also not needed (400 f***ing gas, thats TWO colossus) as you only need one for your army if you KNOW he got cloaking banshees, and the other on his starport/medivac routes for any potential drops. the base perimeter is easily warded with scout pylons. if he doesnt have cloak banshees and go vikings, have that particular observer to scout around in case he have hidden expansions somewhere, in other words, YOU controlling the map. the other one observer within his base medivac/starport route can also be used to get advance vision for your colossus sniping. the advantage is in your hands, not his. the only thing he can do is pressure you VERY HARD early on before colossus (like reaper bunker then marauder after 1-2 reaper when ur early stalkers, SO MUCH PAIN) and/or banshee snipe on workers, or drops, but if you got advance intel to prevent banshee/drops, its gone case for him.

p/s: my vista lasik games are on LT too

http://sc2ranks.com/sea/60675/DJSub
http://sea.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/60675/1/DJSub/

http://sc2ranks.com/sea/76948/Arwa
http://sea.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/76948/1/Arwa/
you be the judge if their win % is terribad or not.

most importantly, they have the experience to deal with situations where it counts. knowing how to deal with a problem is one thing, actually executing what you know is another. and having more experience (aka more games played) helps in that regard. not to mention they could've lost a buncha games just to test new BO, or test out new strats etc. you never know.

then, here is me, 51 games 1v1, and during the tournament, it CLEARLY shows that i lack experience in 1v1.
http://sc2ranks.com/us/963155/Quazacolt
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/963155/1/Quazacolt/

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Added on September 6, 2010, 11:45 amjust need clearance from the vista lasik admins lol.

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Added on September 6, 2010, 11:47 amsentires problem isnt micro troubles (just sep group em), its the GAS consumption that hinders EITHER your HT or colossus push.

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Sep 6 2010, 11:47 AM

Aww darn haha. Hope they give clearance.

Separate group them? Hmm.
Even more micro work haha.
I'll try it and see what happens.

Yea you're right about the gas consumption as in the replay I posted, the thermal lance research came out kind of slow and he only had 2 colossus up on the first clash. It'll definitely hinder the colossus push. The HT is actually for after colossus so if by then there is no expansion, it is already game over as there is probably no resource left to transition.

its still trouble considering the gas.

and without thermal lance, i dont even want to bring my colossus into battle and risk them. hell, i build observer first while chrono'ing thermal lance (you can STILL get a colossus out about the time lance finishes even after observer and chrono on lance upgrade) so when my colo is out they already have lance.

and no, resource is still available. as game ends in around 10-15mins. definitely have plentiful of minerals on both sides of army lol. its just, after losing so many units from colo snipe/harass, it is quite pointless to continue onwards as the pressing zealots/stalkers will eventually overwhelm the base and ultimately gg

it's very rare i use protoss..

But my favourite tactic was to use probe rush..
after 10 probes, straightaway attack opponent's workers
i got lucky by winning 5 matches in a row with that stupid tactic when I was in silver league..

Hmm. Either one more observer or maybe one more immortal?
I would probably just train the colossus. It might come out without the lance but the research is already on its way.
At least during that time I can get the 2nd colossus going.
Well, that is if I didn't lose all my observers from careless mistakes.

Resource is not enough to transition probably.
You have to think also if you lost your army, you need the resource to rebuild it and also research for the high templar.
So if you're one base, you're in trouble as the terran might take the opportunity to knock on your base.

We're talking about transition since we could not end it with that clash and opponent went vikings.
If that clash is won, we don't need to talk about transition already haha. Just bask in the glory.

Hahaha. Yea a lot of weird things you can do on the lower leagues and still get away with it.
Now only I know how hard it is to play on the mid league. Don't even want to think about the higher leagues yet.

i wish i can train with all you guys here....
add me pls

If anyone is up for some practice sessions, do add me up.

got a tourney for 2v2 coming from sea.battlenet MALAYSIAN COMMUNITY FORUM.. do join in
http://sea.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/26773261#1

This post has been edited by finger_waverz: Sep 6 2010, 01:47 PM

Will add you guys once I get home.
Just that I'm not much of a training partner.
Not good enough haha.

well, i used to use immortals a lot vs MMM, but quite frankly, its a huge gamble and usually a 1 time all in and spray and pray sorta deal. more often than not you'll lose out on the out muscling due to stim packs + medivac heal and if the guy is good on micro, medivac micro rescues.

reason is that immortals, while being great tank and all, still gets RAPED by marauders after their shields go down (meaning, no more 20+ dmg rauder dmg reduced to 10) and the WORST of it all is they are subjected to concuss while colossi arent, if your opponent is playing sniping with you (stim, move in snipe stalker/immort) then you're ABSOLUTELY f***ed. more often than not if he attempt to snipe, you will have to HARD PRESS and wrestle with him and hope you have enough micro/army count to force a retreat out of him before he decimates you. totally unfavorable in high level play.

and heres the thing with colossus, without lance, sniping is absolutely not possible and EVEN the marauders have a shot at taking out your colossi. needless to say vikings. imagine losing that PRECIOUS time and 300min/200 gas per colossi and giving YOUR ENEMY chance for map control/counter atk when you retreat to rebuild etc. thats why i dont even move out my colossi before they even got lance, and once they out, my army will guard it as if i am guarding my nexus/base with their lives.

and if you think you NEED to transition because either your enemy's banshee/viking too many (eg: taking out ur observers via scan and you cant deal with cloak banshees), do NOT wait until you lose all ur colossi/army and transition, immediately perform the transition if needed, and definitely try to save as many of ur troops as possible to fight for another day. colossi are extremely mobile and they can run if needed. if it comes down to your colossi going down, take out as many vikings as you can on the retreat to make it count, do NOT let it die in vain. with chance, his viking may retreat and you may even save the colossi to fight for another day.

Ah Quazacolt, think you misunderstood my post. I'm saying get colossus while the training is going. Not send the colossus into battle without the lance. Just that this way, you have 2 up and running with the training done quicker. The observer as I said should have been trained earlier, not when you already have the robotics bay, that's like a building later. Unless you lost your earlier observers in the process.
Now I'm wondering how you can take that as sending it in to battle without the research...

I didn't really say you lost your whole army but you still did lose a group of it so you need to rebuild them unless you say you scouted and think that you're going to lose and decided to retreat fast. What I'm also saying is that you need an expansion, without one you would be hard pressed for resource soon. Think you didn't get that part I'm trying to say either...

I also just said that the battle did not end in a way that you could win the game hence the transition.
Yet again I did not say to transition after you lose your whole army...

Sigh...

Not sure what's going to be interpreted from this post this time either...
Hope you got what I meant.

I understand your take on the immortals. It is kinda bad when they focus it down.
Just that if they are daring enough to come and snipe it, they will have to eat the colossus beam.
And if they fallback when they realized that he is losing units to the beam, force field the back of his army to screw him up.
Watch the replay I posted. Most of what I said in this paragraph are actually based on that one fight in there.

i typically build observers while the robo bay is being built, and i spam chrono on the lance when bay is done and colossi is underway, so with all things considered, sometimes my lance will finish, and i dont even have a single colossi yet. that, or i have 1 colossus, with lance almost done, or just done around the same time. lets not forget i will also need a sizeble stalker/zealot force to hold off any early aggression should it happen, i cannot just go blindly on stalkers and let it be my only card at hand for the battle.

probably i misunderstood you somewhere in between, if thats the case my apologies. however the main reason for transitions is typically your army setup is not matchable with your opponent's army, or a clash happens and you lost the skirmish/battle. however my point still stands: your observer is your intel, use them to have a fixed location on your opponent (in this case a turtling fag terran) and have your colossi to perform sniping. no need to all in. and think of it this way, so long your sniping is good, macro well, you will gain the upper hand as he will have to replace dead units/repairs while you dont. and again, once you got him contained, the map is YOURS, once you secure that advantage, expanding is almost a zero risk deal.

what i am trying to point out though, is to put yourself in a situation, that you DO NOT have to transition. force that option to YOUR opponent, not being forced upon. place that momentum to YOUR opponent and keep pushing it hard. i know this is easier said than done, however if you noticed in pro level plays, its all about creating that momentum, and riding HARD upon it once you got a slight gain in favor. there are RARELY cases that you can outturn that momentum in a decisive strike (cases like these are a well placed baneline/zergling ambush and instantly GG the entire MMM bio ball, see demuslim vs dimaga haha)

well if you already have a sizeble force and colossi backing em, then its all good, however, with immortals being so expensive (they are literally TWO stalkers, which can help fend of banshees/vikings ) its oftently a hard option to push them out at all. not to mention they will be occuping your precious 1 robo slot for observers/colossi lol. (you can chrono them, however you lose chrono on lance)

hmmm as i said lots of games played doesnt meant u are good...
i have frens in SEA top 200 with only 60-80 games in total...
they are having around 65-75% winning rate and so much better than most diamonds i met (i'm at 23-12 which is only 35 1v1 games but i do custom wit my frens a lot LOL)...

well 4 observers are to prevent drops around ur base, not really banshee...
and my observers do get sniped from time to time thanks to good scans (the zoom-in zoom-out can really see observers so easily >.<)...
though i usually only pump out the 3rd and 4th observers when i see a starport where possible drops might happen...

i just find colossi army is much more immobile than HTs when dealing with drops (very very common vs good terrans)...
i could jz warp in HTs anywhere and then blow up his drops pretty easily compared to a colossi build where the damage has been done...
the colossi build to me is much more suitable for maps like xel'naga...
rather than trying to beat his viking, i rather just get more HTs where the storms wreck the vikings as well as the MMM balls (not to mention feedback)...

i tried emulating HuK's 2gate robo build which i saw at MLG etc and while it looked great when he does that, i am not able to replicate that...
if we were able to replicate their play, then why are we not pro players?
my personal experience and preferences still prefer not going heavy colossi...

as for immortals? i dun really like making them as they are too costly and does well only when the terran FE/ bunkers imho...
plus u are choosing between a colossi or a immortal from ur robo...

my point is that more games means more experience. may or may not necessarily be good. hell, if you can see from the ranks and what not, almost ALL top ranking players, or tournament/pro gamer players, have high amounts of games played. the ONLY exception i've seen are koreans. however, due to the seriousness/competitiveness of koreans and SC/SC2, they play custom games non league with their dorm lifestyle training even crazier than the league players you also dunno.

and as my post clearly states, drops AND/OR banshee. you DONT need 4 of them. think of it this way on his scans: he lose out ~300+ minerals while you lose 50min 100 gas. good trade? i would say so myself!
if production slot is a problem, there is always chrono to save the day (in those tourneys, my chrono level is almost on use every 25, not enough chronos )

honestly, HTs are WAY more immobile if you think about cliffs, and their movement speed (unless ur talking about prism carriage) and lets be realistic, leaving HTs in ur base while ur teched for it is just unrealistic. of course you can warp in and all, and you can 1 storm the moment its done warping so long you got amulet research, the dmg is already done on ur base and if the terran sees incoming HT, he can always load back medivac run, or stim pack and snipe the hell outta your HT. seen that happened on way too many TVP matches and it was VERY bitter.

if you think about feedbacking the medivac, that works too, however, whos to say the MM wont be stimming your HTs face off? lol. storm typically have better range, and you can storm closer to you to have ur HT at a safe distance. feedbacks however, do not provide that luxury.

and honestly, i havent seen Huk's 2 gate robo play at all, i got this build out during vista lasik after being owned by it. copied it, use it on the next terran game, worked so beautifully, i used it again on the resurrected group play, and to my surprised, it worked wonders as well. it is probably due to my preference over brute strength over casters. again, im not pointing out HTs are totally bad, just pointing out their weaknesses compared to colossi strengths, and mainly, to put it bluntly, my biased preference over them.

and no, you cant ever heavy colossi LOL
1) too expensive 2) you need stalkers/zealots

the THREE TVP matches i had during vista lasik, at the end of the game i only had like 2-3++ colossi maxed lol. since i needed to beef up stalkers to ward of vikings/banshee

Ooh ok. I get you now.
Forcing the transition on your opponent is a good idea. Haha. I'll keep that in mind when I play from now on.
I'm too used to being on the defensive and keep changing to suit the situation.
I'll try to overpower my opponent instead to force their hand.

Haha yea. Really having a problem with the turtling terran.
Thanks for the idea. I was thinking how to take that army of tanks down hiding on that cliff. I'll try and snipe it down with my collossi now.
Just that when I do that, my macro of my base goes down the drain haha.

I'll see how it goes for the immortal. I'll try with and without it in some games to see how it goes and if it fits in for my play.

Oh. Hope I can find your game in the vista lasik replay pack.
Would like to learn how you do it.

This post has been edited by tatyinw: Sep 6 2010, 04:19 PM

yeah most importantly is the trial and error and do whats comfortable FOR YOU. if you like HTs, by all means use that over colossi. as ive said many times, i hate HTs so colossi is definitely my choice against MM(M) lol.

ok gimme a bit, admins just gave the green light. snaking from work to upload to FTP LOL!

my 4 observers: -
- 2 surrounding his base and possible drop routes
- 1 wit main army
- 1 trying to scout his base/ expansion

i usually warp in HT with chargelots...
storm -> feedback and watch ur chargelots tear the MM apart...
MMM drops are so much easier with feedbacks...

again difference styles, no right to wrong...
just justifying my prefered builds...
even when i am using HTs, i get some colossi as it helps cleanup after storms...

4 obs/bay/lance/templar arc/storm/amulet/HT/colossus

the amount of gas, how late is the game already? LOL

when u are pushing out, grab an expansion?
after all early on u are having map control with ur 1-2 colossi...
the HT is my transition after that when i have my 2nd expansion up (and 4 more gates getting dropped)...

and when u are having more zealots in ur compo, it frees gas up...

Hahaha.
I'm just as bad. Snaking at work and posting here.

Thanks for uploading the replays!