Due to my living hall layout, I cannot place the surround at the sides, the only choice is to put them on the rear walls. Bipole or monopole would be better in this situation?

This post has been edited by echoesian: Jul 29 2010, 12:28 AM

Couldn't you use a pole from the ceiling and hang the bipole speakers at your side? For 5.1, it's recommended to have the surround speaker at the side around 90-110 degrees. Human hearing is not sensitive enough for positioning when the speakers is at your back.

I see you get more help in avsforum

This post has been edited by pierreye: Jul 29 2010, 07:33 AM

Hmm..I've never experience bipoles before..but I think it should be good as a side speaker for a 7.1 setup...but for me direct radiating speakers should be at the rears especially for a HD audio setup that required a more accurate directional sound.....well..I might be wrong

I'm sure some of the experience gurus can help to give more advice

This post has been edited by azbro: Jul 29 2010, 09:23 AM

Dipole speakers give vague ambient surround effect, as compared to direct firing speakers, which will give you good clear directional audio.

It was reported that direct firing is more suitable for concert or musics, as compared to movies, which was originally recorded to give us the ambient surround effect anyway.

I have used both before. Now I am using the Dipole speakers.

_____________________________________

I think this site gives a good explanation about the dipole and Bipole speakers, and their difference.

Guide to dipolar & bipolar speakers..

I certainly learned a lot from that site

This post has been edited by peter32: Jul 29 2010, 01:51 PM

bipole/dipole in case of movies only. if multichannel music on SACD or DVD-A is on the menu, then monopoles are recommended

For me I 'think' direct firing is better for HD-audio (DTSHDMA & DtrueHD) as it needs to be accurate...but then..I might 'think' wrong

Some say monopole is better in movie and some say bipole is the best.... aiyo so confusing leh...

Go try it out to experience yourself. You will be the one paying and enjoy it, right? If you don't like it, it doesn't matter what other ppl say how good it is...

precisely. listen and decide.

from experience listening to friend's setup, the bi/dipolar are kindda vague sounding. you won't get the accuracy of monopolar.
accuracy like at the scene in avatar where the wolves are circling the hero. you won't get the feeling that the wolf is circling at your back moving from left to right and front to back.

IMHO some movies are mixed so that the surrounds produce surround sound (sound from the back) (like avatar) and some are mixed so that the surround produce ambient sound (like kungfu panda). when playing avatar with monopolar surround, you're better off using monopolar and get the accuracy. but when playing titles mixed with ambient sound, IMO you're better off using bipolar/dipolar.
kungfu panda sound kindda strange with the sound of rubble dropping from the back (on monopolar) when it's supposed to be dropping from the center. well at least on my setup. but avatar sounds pretty amazing with the wolves circling all over you.

and another thing to consider, with monopolar you're gonna get overpowering sound either from the left or right if you sit off centre. one channel is gonna be louder than the other. with bipolar this effect is more forgiving because it sounds vague from the start haha

just my opinion. and opinion varies

Have you experience HD audio like DTSHDMA or DolbyTrueHD? For example like Paskal mentioned...Avatar movie?

You should...the transaction of sound between speakers is like seamless..and i dare to say...it feels more spacious..more refine..and much more accurate imaging than the crude basic DTS and DD...for this, I 'think' the Direct firing speaker will do a better job than bipolar/dipolar...but its my opinion only.


I wonder why most of the gurus in here are not commenting

This post has been edited by azbro: Jul 29 2010, 05:16 PM

Yeah I know the feeling of sound movement from side rear left to the right with the monopole, I thought this is also achievable with bipole.. ?

Just listen to a system with DTSHDMA or DolbyTrueHD... then you decide....HD audio is accuracy..like a sniper, you would want a sniper to be holding a machine gun...all spread out...less focus..maybe it does wonders to basic DTS and DD...but I dun think a HDaudio will benefit from a bipole at the rear.

Regarding paskal comment abt one channel gonna be louder than the other is true. Its not so easy to setup....each speaker is giving out clear sounds..

This post has been edited by azbro: Jul 29 2010, 06:16 PM

Bipole speaker sounds like it is from your side wall, whereas monopole is exactly one point from your left. Its very precise.

At one scene when I watch 'Curious Case of Benjamin Button', door knock sound appeared suddenly from the left surround. At that time the monopole speaker really gave me the shock. Obviously all of us turned our head at the door. It was very precise. Whereas the dipole would not be that pin point.

yes, but with less accuracy.

in my system you could hear depth even from the surround speaker. like in the intro of sherlock holmes, the horse carriage sounds like it's coming from a distance from your back then move passes you and goes to the front. gives me goosebumps haha.
when properly configured, there's not just left, right, front and back. there's also depth. the accuracy of monopole extends this depth for the back speaker. that's what i really like about using monopole for surround.

might not be your cup of tea though.

Paskal, is your surround placement similar as mine which is at the back of sofa instead of the side in 5.1??

my hall is attached to the dining area. too far out to put the surround at the rear. so i mount it on the side wall, 10-20 degrees behind the listening position, 4 feet higher pointing downwards.

Yeah I think your layout is more ideal because at least you have the chance to mount it on the side. But in my case, I need to mount it on the rear, would the surround sound be similar as yours?

Paskal is elite grouplah...he is using 9.1 system...

I can tell you this...your rears a bit too far...when ppl talk abt rear means...ambient effect sound...for me that is half true...nowadays there are lots of movies with sound being generated for the rears
1) Your rear speaker must be loud to be the same effect as the fronts..you need efficient speakers for that. I think at that distance, using bipole speaker sound will come out like mono from behind.
But that also depends on which type of bipole speaker you wanna get.
2) Do you know you have to set the speaker type and height on the AVR? If you are using surround speakers, you have to set it to 'Small' what it does is actually the bass frequency will be channeled to the speaker that is set as large or the LFE. At that length between the rears and the fronts are 18 feet. So the sound is going to be detached a bit.

Solution: Move the Sofa a bit nearer to the coffee table, and put the rear surrounds at the sides rather than far away behind..actually, 5.1 surround are suppose to be sides ( or slightly rear only)...directly firing to your ears...haha

Your coffee table needs to the placed so that the distance is nearer to the TV..so you can locate the surround at the side

Examples of 5.1 setup:





Dun believe...just google..the sides are the most common placement for a 5.1 surround setup.

Actually, when you listed to HD-audio it makes all the difference. You dun want a Snipers bullet cutting the air to be all over the place..you want is at precise points going from the left rear to front right.

If you are still interested in Bipole speakers, when then I respect your decision. Wait for other members to give advice also and do lotsa homework by googling around...but i still think you rears is a bit far



Also for your Sub, also depends...i feel that the bass is better if the Sub is put at a corner but facing the TV instead of the sofa..but it depends on you.

This post has been edited by azbro: Jul 29 2010, 11:19 PM

is klipsch WDST considered combo of direct-radioating and bipole?

Bro, thanks for your lengthy explanation, actually I've done a lot of homework and I also know the best ideal placement for surround for 5.1 is at sides not rears. I have also evaluated many different ways like below, but the thing is considering my layout, it is very hard me to put the surrounds on the sides because:

1 - There is no side walls
2 - If Hang on the ceiling, it will be too high and also hard to find a bracket that can support the heavy weight.
3 - The recommended height for surround is actually 2-3' above ears which is about 7' maximum from the floor. Not sure where to find a at least 6-7' speaker stand. Even if can, i think it will look weird right?
4 - If I move closer to TV, yes it can be, I'm able to mount it on the left side wall but how about the right? I have a half height cabinet there which is only about 4' high, if I were to put the right surround there, I need something to rise it, If I rise it, I think it will look weird too.


Therefore, at last I also gave up my plan to mount the surround on the sides

bro i'm not elite lah. elite are those people running higher end denons/onkyos/pioneer elite/marantz with XPA5.
i'm just peasant with entry level 5.1 setup.

kindda. it disperse sound in 3 different way.

echoesian, you may fix up wall rack (can get this from Ikea DIY, the one with metal T support can sustain 25kg weight !) and use it to place your right surround.

I also used to consider putting my surround at the back wall, but changed my mind half way through the renovation. Now they are at my side but slightly infront of the sitting position, not behind as recommended, but no choice, I ran out of wall on the right hand side as well.



The cabling at the back surround remained, and I will use them in future for possible 7.1 set up.

Well, if you insist of putting the surround speakers at the rear and a bit far off to the wall, the sound is going to be detached from the fronts, not only that, the lower frequency is going to be kinda funny sound as the high frequency will be at the back, and the lower frequency at the front.

I'm not guru, but I recommend a more full range speakers on stand at the rear....more like tall boys with multiple drivers like this:



But for me, I'll still stick to the side surround using this:


Goes well with the deco too...and make sure the cables can be detached accidentally when you maid does mopping of the floors or when kids come and start rearranging the house.

This post has been edited by azbro: Jul 30 2010, 09:26 AM

Bro, yeah your side surround is actually resides at more front from the sofa, but how's the sound performance like?

Well, I can still hear the surround effect for sure.. but more like getting used to them coming from the front left and right for now. If u look at the edge of my right wall, its at the edge already. So really I have no choice. If you do have a choice, try to stick to the recommended position as told by earlier post, around 0-30 degree behind your ears.

I don't think the effect is that much difference lah.. but psst psst I could be eating sour grapes

In the AVR, is there a setting for left/right surround speaker angle degree?

No...basic is Large/Small speakers, Volume, Delay, High/Normal Height, treble/bass,and overall blc.