There are many opinions of what makes a good engine oil, and how a good oil should perform....

There are just too many diversities of thoughts ......

I would like to share how I choose my engine oil:

1) We know that engine oil is made of base oil and additive.... If we would have idea on the quality of this 2 raw material, it should be very helpful in choosing engine oil...

- I prefer engine oil makers that have their own crude oil extraction and base oil processing facilities. It might not guarantee good quality but we would at least know the quality of the raw material should be more consistent... Many many lubricant companies has to buy base oil from someone else.

- It might be difficult to find out where do they source the additive packages, but I would try ways to find out from whom they source from.... I personally prefer they buy from Americans and Europeans than from countries like China...

2) First of all, I don't believe what the engine oil makers claim on their quality and standards, tell me who will claim that their oil is not up to spec?? I don't quite like the statement, such as "meet", "exceed", "surpass" certain standards without a third party standard body certification.... I will check on http://eolcs.api.org/ whether the specific brand/model of engine oil, made in specific country is officially a licensee of American Petroleum Institute (API)....
Besides API, I would like to check if the engine oil is:
- ILSAC GF-5 certified (for gasoline engine oil)
- JASO MA, MA2 (for 4T)
- OEM certified such as Dexos (GM), WSS (Ford), LongLife (BMW) and etc
- ACEA: Actually their standard is very high, just too bad that they just provide guideline on their standard, they do not check and test whether the candidate oil is up to the specifications.... you can expect that many many many engine oil makers likes to tell people that they meet ACEA standard.....

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I totally agree with you, API SM and SN do limit the phosphorus content 0.06-0.08% (API SL and SJ limit the content below 0.1%)

Phosphorus is a component of what is commonly recognized as an anti-wear agent and oxidation inhibitor, zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP). ZDDP is very prevalent in the lubrication industry due to its excellent anti-wear and
antioxidant properties. Alternatively, larger quantities of volatile phosphorus contained in ZDDP have been linked
to premature poisoning of the catalyst surface of three-way catalytic converters....

Number of modern car models have ECU that monitor the functionality of the catalytic converters, early poisoning of catalytic converters will be a bad news.... some car ECU will respond by cutting power output...

However, eventhough with less anti wear agent, latest API SM and SN standards control average cam wear (sequence IVA) and allow maximum 90 micron (1/1000mm) of wear, whereas, in older standard, such as API SL and SJ, they allow maximum waer of 120 micron.....
You must understand the phosphorus level will deplete during operation, but API SN with Resource Conserving and ILSAC GF-5 would require the engine oil to retain minimum 79% of phosphorus during test....

From these info, I can summarize that eventhough latest API standards call for lower phosphorus content (lower anti wear agent), API actually commits to reduce wear on engine components... furthermore, API SN and SM fall under category of mid SAPS engine oil which is suitable to local fuel quality.....

Don't worry, engine produced after 1980's are mostly running on roller rocker arm, including G13B and G15B from the first generation Proton Saga....

I supposed VTW = Valve Train Wear, am I right?

According to American Petroleum Institute's (API) Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System,

- The Valve Train Wear, or known as average cam wear under engine Sequence IVA Test (ASTM D6891);

1) API SJ (for 2001 or older gasoline engine) and API SL (for 2004 and older gasoline engine) specify not more than 120 micron of wear, comparing with;

2) API SM (for 2010 or older gasoline engine) and API SN (current) specify not more than 90 micron of wear....

Even though newer API standards call for lower phosphorus content (anti wear agent) due to catalytic converter preservation, It does not allow more wear to take place, especially valve train wear.... With the help of new additive technology, API SN and SM must resist wear better than API SJ and SL which has higher content of phosphorus as anti wear agent...

For your infomation, current additive technology has enable the cam wear to be reduced down to 30 micron.

Yes, Sequence VIA (ASTM D6891) does cover all viscosity grade...

API SM controls Phosphorus (ZDDP) content at 0.06%min - 0.08%max.
No control of Phosphorus depletion

API SN controls Phosphorus (ZDDP) content at 0.06%min - 0.08%max.
API SM and SN has same amount of Phosphorus content (ZDDP).
futhermore,
API SN, with additional certification of Resource Conserving (RC) and ILSAC GF-5 will have control of Phosphorus depletion. The particular engine oil must retain minimum 79% of Phosphorus after test Sequence IIIGB (ASTM D7320).


But if you wish to use engine oil that will help in some fuel saving, you should look for

API SN, Resource Conserving and ILSAC GF-5
or
API SM, ILSAC GF-4

Plain API SM and SN (non Resource Conserving, non ILSAC GF-5) have no concern on Fuel Economy....

Local make cars, locally assembled cars, imported cars, local brands or oversea brands do fitted with catalytic converters and lambda O2 sensors. Proton Iswara LMSS and LMST ( produced after year 2000, now discontinued) are not fitted with catalytic converters.... Proton Wira since 1997 are fitted with catalytic converters...

Most cars on the road now are fitted with catalytic converters, you can remove it or modify the exhaust system to improve the power delivery. Without catalytic converter would allow you to use engine oil with higher Phosphorus (ZDDP) content such as API SL or SJ (less than 0.1% Phosphorus).

However,

Using API SL, SJ, with higher anti wear agent (Phosphorus, ZDDP) content does not protect engine better in term of wear because they allow maximum 120 micron of avg cam wear...

Comparing with;

API SM and SN which only allow 90 micron on the same aspect....

Now, looking at API SM and SN,
-They have same amount of anti wear agent (Phosphorus, ZDDP)
-They have same amount of allowance on cam wear

But those with additional certification of RC and ILSAC GF-5 on top of API SN will need to retain anti wear agent, this will make the engine oil to protect better....

Furthermore,

API SN is not always more expensive than API SM oil, you can also find some API SL oil are sold at higher price than API SN....

So ZDDP is not an issue
Fuel economy is not an issue
Catalytic Converter is not an issue
Price is not an issue

So why not upgrade yourself from API SM to SN?

You have nothing to lose but more to gain.... unless you have a valid contract to bind you to use API SM only

API, as the name stands for; American Petroleum Institute, might sounds like it is only for the American... well, it is not.... , check this out-----

http://eolcs.api.org/companySearchResults....country&q=JAPAN

As you can see, many Japanese engine oil makers are certified API licensees....

If you are still not convinced and have doubts, then I would suggest you go for engine oil that has ILSAC standard

ILSAC is jointly developed and approved by Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association (JAMA), GM, Ford and Chrysler....meaning it is approved by all Japanese and American car makers....

Most car engine produced after 1980, whether it is made in USA, EU or JAPAN, are running on roller rocker arms...

All this info can be acquired in

http://www.api.org/

http://www.api.org/certification-programs/...aust-fluid.aspx

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You have got it right!! ,

API SN, Resource Conserving, ILSAC GF-5 oil will perform better in many aspects comparing with API SM GF-4.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=480...&type=3&theater


So why still want to stick to API SM?

If you have some form of evidence, test result or experience that API SN has make more damage to engine comparing with API SM oil, by all means, for the sake of knowledge sharing, please let us know....

With this, we can write to API and ILSAC and question their integrity / reliability of their tests, make sure they take us, car owners, seriously and develop better standard to control engine oil makers' quality....

If most car owners understand engine oil better, I am sure those inferior quality engine oil makers will not be able to survive.... this will be a good news to all engine oil consumers, because we do not have to worry about engine oil we are buying....

Unfortunately, this does not happen....

Engine oil business is attractive because it is a high volume / fast moving business. The price is very much based on the brand and the attractiveness of the packaging.... and worst of all, the price does not always reflect the quality of the oil inside....

All engine oil makers / marketers will tell you their technologies are derived from racing, and their oil is purposely made for performance.... Would you expect a marketer come and tell you that the engine oil he produces is not for performance?

There is only so much you can believe or trust the oil marketers, you have to do some research or background check on the oil you are buying.... Check whether their product quality is controlled by

1) In house quality control only.... They do not have certification from third party standard bodies but claim they meet the qualities set by these standard bodies....

2) In house and third party quality control. they are certified by third party bodies standards....

Of course I do not imply that not having third party quality control means the engine oil is no good... they could be making good engine oil but how could you tell?

So standard bodies, such as API, ILSAC, JASO and etc could at least provide some form of guidance to us, car owners / engine oil consumers, when we choose engine oil for our cars.....

Hope this would help: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Enhanced-Lub...480458618632696

I am nobody, I am just a car owner....

I am probably a bit more curious on the things that I use on my car or my friends' cars, that's all...

Max9338,

I hope you can also share whatever you know with us

1) You can click http://eolcs.api.org/
2) Type in the brand name of the engine oil at "Search by brand name" column
3) If it is listed, you can copy the company name and click go back
4) Paste the company name at "Search by company name"
5) You will be able to see that the particular brand which made in that particular country blending facility is or is not official licensee of API

You can read

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.4...18632696&type=3

and find out that not all blending facilities under same brand name are approved API licensee....

You might have the same brand and you might claim having the same or better specification/performance, it might be true, it might not... we user/buyer will have no ways to find out how true their claims are....

Well, the blender might say they don't need API, but we user can ask why not, right? Since there are many not so famous local brands had already become API licensee.....

API only gives you some basic, initial guidelines when you choose engine oil.... Of course there are other aspects which you need to study before buying....

You might have problem switching to Amsoil, let's take a look:



All Amsoil 0W20 grade gasoline engine oil are certified API SN.... I understand you do not want to use API SN oil, maybe you need to check out other brands which offer API SM for this grade...

May I know that the mentioned ENEOS ECO STAGE 0W20----

---- is local version sold by MAYSHOWA?

http://www.mayshowa.com/eneos.php

http://www.mayshowa.com/contact.php


OR,

----- the one that is made by JX NIPPON OIL & ENERGY CORPORATION, Japan?

http://eolcs.api.org/brandSearchResults.as...eneos&go=Search

http://www.eneos.us/product/1

It is plastic bottle, so it is made in Thailand... no API "donut" nor "starburst" logos....

This post has been edited by enhanced vehicle: Sep 25 2012, 10:00 AM

"Starburst" is rare because basically ILSAC requirement is generally more stringent than common API service standard....

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=480...&type=3&theater

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Now more and more car manufacturers specify xW30 as service fill.....Proton Campro series, all Peroduas, Toyota Avanza, Honda City, Kia Forte and Optima, Hyundai Elantra and Sonata in Thailand, Singapore, All Chevrolets (Dexos requirement), Peugeot prince engine series (turbo and non turbo) and many more have joined the bandwagon of xW30.... xW40 is more common for diesel engine oil used by trucks and buses....

.....and at your own risk, hehe...

May I know what car are you driving?

[quote=Quazacolt,Oct 6 2012, 11:24 PM]
year 1999 iswara with a 4g15p engine

I used to owned a 2005 Iswara powered by 4G13P and I have been using FS 5W30 API SM, ILSAC GF-4 since 10,000km. I had kept on using that until I sold off the car in year 2011 and the mileage was 230,000km.... No sign of engine oil consumption the moment I sell.... In fact I experience faster engine oil evaporation during the first 10,000km using mineral 20w50....

The new owner continued using 5W30, and the mileage now is 260,000km. He had upgraded his engine oil to API SN and ILSAC GF-5....

From what I gathered, if you use a good quality engine oil that has very high shear stability, good wear protection and high temperature and oxidation resistant and etc, you should be safe using even lower viscosity grade such as xW30 because latest engine oil standard requires the engine oil "must stay in grade", meaning no "break down" is allowed..... If you use a low quality 20w50, your oil might have shear out of grade within very short period of time and your oil might end up losing all required viscosity....

Before changing to full syn or mineral or sticking back to semi syn, let's understand a little bit about them....

Mineral:
Generally the base oil consists very high volatile substance (aromatics, sulphur and etc), and it has much lower viscosity index...In summary, the engine oil is less stable, easy to get oxidated and breakdown /thin out under high temperature and shear.

Semi Synthetic:
Some call it partial synthetic..... The biggest problem is that we do not know how much quantity of full synthetic is mixed with mineral oil. There is no trade or government regulation that controls the mixing ratio, I can mix a little bit of full synthetic with majority mineral and still call it semi synthetic and the actual performance of such mixture is very very close to a normal mineral oil.....

Full Synthetic:
This base oil consist less than 10% of volatile substance and it has the highest viscosity index.... It is the most stable, very high resistance against temperature breakdown, high resistance against oxidation, High shear stability and much less evaporation...

---

Added on October 7, 2012, 1:04 amNo, It is not ok to ignore manufacturer recommendation.... Like I said before, if you use viscosity grade and standards different from what owner manual had stated, it will be at your own risk......

I used 5w30 on my Iswara all at my own risk.... If you want to take the similar risk, like me, you can refer to my past experience that I shared previously, if not, you'd better refer to owner manual....

Bro, this is just pure experience and knowledge sharing as a consumer, if I had said something that had conflicted some interest, I would like to apologize.... I am sorry, I hope I did not spoil a good environment to talk about engine oil without any commercial interest....

This post has been edited by enhanced vehicle: Oct 7 2012, 01:04 AM

You are right, I was taking risk....

I used 5w30 and my OCI is 10,000km....

And it turned out to be quite well... At least those wish to try 5w30 on their 4G13 or 15 can refer to this case study....

My friend who owned the 2006 iswara LMST had his engine overhauled at mileage 170,000km using engine oil specified by Proton service centre only....

Well, again, using engine oil different from manufacturer recommendation is still a risk...

Synthetic base oil makers and synthetic lubricants makers will be very sad reading your opinion....

Actually, there are differences....

1) Temperature resistance (low VI): Regardless of how new/fresh the mineral oil in your engine, due to its nature of lower temperature resistance, it will provide less protection to engine moving parts...

2) Low saturation: Mineral base oil has higher content of volatile substances which are detrimental to the performance of the engine oil in terms of wear protection, oxidation resistance, corrosion control, shear stability and etc.....

In my opinion, shortening OCI for mineral oil might improve engine protection, but it would not be able to totally replicate engine protection at par with synthetic oil...