Dear TuckFook,

I am thinking of double layers with Styrofoam sandwiched in between and how much did you pay for the contractor?

I was also thinking of calcium silicate type of bricks as it's made from lime which swiftlets came from mostly lime caves but the problem is that CS brick is high in density and thus, I think that it is not sound proof and also due to the density, it's does not fully insulate the BH from the heat. CS will heat up in the day and then during the night, it slowly releases heat into the BH. Best if your BH is very cold at night, CS will keep your chicks warm, I guess. Anyone using CS brick wall can comment?

Also, very importance of all is that most of the heat problem in the BH is from the ceiling and not the wall...and the ceiling is definitely the serious problem facing BH today.

Thank you, very useful information.
This explained why my friend's bird house with double walls with styro foam sandwiched structure has had high humidity all the time.
Luckily, he had built-in many ventilation holes(VH) and he had to open all those holes all the times.
Recently during this heavy rain period, the VH are not enough, he had to install many exhausted fans on ground floor to lower the humidity.

Earlier a friend advised him to close down some of the VH to lower the humidity as outside humidity was high.
But when he did close some holes, the humidity shoot.

This post has been edited by Tweeter: Oct 17 2010, 02:22 PM

Cal Sil ? that is a refractory type of material used for high temperature insulation. I use 4" calcium silicate for my wood fired oven. 800F inside and 100F outside. It is used because it cannot melt at high temperatures whereas styrofoam, which is a much better insulator, will melt and burn.

Calcium silicate sheets 6-9mm., are recommended for the ceilings of BHs converted from ready built premises. Fair insulation and good echo properties.

There are refractory heat conducting bricks as used in furnaces which help to retain and regulate the heat and refractory insulating bricks that help to keep the heat inside. So a furnace is made of both types.

In my case I am using the red bricks as a means of regulating the temperature and humidity inside whilst the outside fluctuates greatly in the period of 24 hrs. The outside is also not painted so as to allow the movement of water. This is perhaps how a cave wall works.

Lime and clay is fairly porous and the heat is retained with the help of the water trapped inside. As it gets hotter outside, some of this water evaporates and helps cool the inside down. There are clay water pots that are semi porous that cool the water within so much so that the water actually tastes cooler.

Styrofoam is an impermeable insulating medium. Water cannot pass through it and heat/cold also passes through very slowly. Using styrofoam in between the walls will not allow any evaporation and any internal cooling or heating will require artificial means.

I only use styrofoam between the top floor ceiling and the roof. the is no styrofoam in my walls. Roof slab 4" RC then 3" styrofoam on top and 2" RC to hold the styrofoam down. Note that if the roof floods, even with the weight of 2" RC it may float so make sure there are adequate overflow holes.

Use of impermeable insulation depends on the area you are in. If your location is very hot and dry then it may be necessary to insulate from the heat and loss of moisture.

Use styrofoam in between walls in the wrong location and you'll have very wet walls, if you cannot ventilate properly. Too much ventilation and the birds will not stay.

My location has high rainfall and is within a valley with overall high ambient humidity.

Thank you Sir TuckFook for replaying. What I mean is the BH have two red brick wall and in between that two wall is empty. The outside wall have vent hole at top part and inside wall have vent hole at the bottom(height almost 2 feet from the floor) so air will flow into the BH from outside wall top side then flow inside the wall then vent into the BH from inside wall bottom part. I can see too many dust flying inside the BH and the mist produce from ultrasonic mist maker will get evaporated very fast. My BH is only 20feet x 60feet and 20 disc ultrasonic mist maker is not enough. I was thinking of adding another 10 disc (I DIY the ultrasonic maker) to the mist maker. I will post my BH drawing asap when I finish drawing it using google sketch. My location is at Menggatal, Kota Kinabalu and yes there is a few BH at this location (last count 3) for a radius of 25KM for here. Maybe I can give my GPS location but do you think it will help? hahaha.

This post has been edited by mfyapp: Oct 17 2010, 03:55 PM

Will rockwool be an alternative for either styrofoam or Cal Sil bricks?

Rockwool is great for high temperatures and greater extremes of temperature but the insulating properties is not near as good as styrofoam. It's just like glass fibre. many people used this for insulating existing ceiling to roof space but superceded by styrofoam, which has no irritating fibres, light, and very easy to use. This is not a choice for standalone BHs as we have the option of design and use of superior materials.

Avoid anything that rats and other unwanted guests will make cosy nests.

Spray on Polyurethane foam is another alternative that the specialist contractor just sprays to walls and ceiling. Only problem is that they break down in time as well as absorbs water. perhaps not as cheap as styrofoam though. BTW styrofoam could possibly be the cause of environmental disasters as it is not degraded with time and is made up of minute foam 'bubbles' held fairly loosely together. These can clog waterways, water tables etc. leading to flooding. It's one of those very difficult to get rid of plastics.

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Added on October 17, 2010, 8:52 pmHaving a hollow wall is known for creating a haven for rats to breed. snakes will also find a way in. Both these will eat up the young birds.

If there is too much air movements, the birds will usually not like it. You will find that the birds will build nests in areas where there is less air movements. Since there is no way to control air flow, on a windy day, you'll get a lot of fresh air inside the BH, good for humans but not so good for swiftlets.

Might be a good idea to close up all the air ways and install 8" holes with which electric ventilation fans can be used. That way you can control the air flow easily.

How much airflow will also depend on how the rest of BH is built.

On why location is important, as it affects the ambient wind, temperature and humidity. Deep valleys will have high humidity and less draughts. Flat areas will usually be windy, especially near the coast etc.

Give a description of your surroundings, posting GPS locations might be dangerous.






This post has been edited by tuckfook: Oct 17 2010, 08:52 PM

i spoke to JPV regarding licencing of my BH last week and i was told that they need to visit the BH. i guess visiting means taking a peek inside the BH.

whats everyone's take on the JPV mf-s looking inside out beautiful birdhouse? an inevitable? or just delay the registration?

that brings up my point of the GAHP contents being part of the 1GP instead of just attending the GAHP course as a requirement.
The GAHP 'motherhood & apple-pie' statements now needs to be complied with...

Almost all 'conditions' fall under the PBTs like CFs and building plans etc...mostly physical attributes of your BH...
What explanations did they offer for wanting to visit your BH?
Interviewing your birds about the comfort levels and food sufficiency?

they told me that they will help me harvest my birds nest. which in the malaysian spirit means what they can get is what they can keep....which is practically nothing....coz my bh is empty

Visit before issuing license?

I wonder whether the company that advertise their hand-fed swiftlets expertise got license or not?

Once visited, they got your BH's GPS coordinates recorded.

whats the biggie of having them recorded GPS co-ordinates?

i can tell them that but i didnt....

If that was the reason, shouldnt they were forthright abt it?
Taking a GPS location is a 'whispered' requirement for a while.
It shouldn't become an issue unless the locations are misused...like if your secret BH (even CIA doesn't know abt) is suddenly burgled!

As I see it, the issues are
1)DVS conditions for registration (as against licensing which is the authority of the PBTs) is still fluid and DVS is playing by ear
2)The whole 1GP is still too 'loose' and easy for mis-intepretation.

Way forward...
1)Thrash these out within the associations and forward to authorities before they start drawing up their ISO certified nonsense for their goons.
2)Suffer in silence
3)Suffer till you cannot tahan and let the whole thing boil over like the sugar/retailers fiasco.

htc, as a 'first-mover' pls do share your subsequent experience with any authorities on BHs.

If it's the Aeroxxxx thingy and we are talking abt the same...I recall
A minister was invited to the opening and the minister had some good words for it..
A few mths later it was raided by some authorities for some illegalities...
I also recall these were posted on this forum....

Having a hollow wall is known for creating a haven for rats to breed. snakes will also find a way in. Both these will eat up the young birds.

If there is too much air movements, the birds will usually not like it. You will find that the birds will build nests in areas where there is less air movements. Since there is no way to control air flow, on a windy day, you'll get a lot of fresh air inside the BH, good for humans but not so good for swiftlets.

Might be a good idea to close up all the air ways and install 8" holes with which electric ventilation fans can be used. That way you can control the air flow easily.

How much airflow will also depend on how the rest of BH is built.

On why location is important, as it affects the ambient wind, temperature and humidity. Deep valleys will have high humidity and less draughts. Flat areas will usually be windy, especially near the coast etc.

Give a description of your surroundings, posting GPS locations might be dangerous.

[/quote]

Just for your information I have metal mesh on the outside wall and not much pest problem at the moment(touch wood). My BH is 3 stories and half, the half being roving room and dog kennel facing west. The well is located in the middle of the building, straight from 3rd floor to ground floor. This design is not so good because wind can also flow in from the dog kennel and go down to lower floor without much resistance.
The surrounding area is a small hill about 150meter to the north. East, south, west is flat land with building and grass land. There is also a small river to the north but too small to be any importance. My place is about 6km from the coast on the west and a hill peak of 800meter about 5km on the east. The house was build and design by a sifu that claim many years in this business in Thailand but it seems he is not that knowledgeable at all.
This BH have been operating for 2 years and last count only 91 nests. Most bird stay at 3rd floor and ground floor only have 11 nests. The bird population is good because can see many bird flying in the afternoon even flying into BH but not much is staying.
Anyone have any suggestion is very welcome. Thanks in advance.

This post has been edited by mfyapp: Oct 19 2010, 01:04 AM

Whenever I got the chance to talk to the Fed Boss, always the same answer and that's." Everything's OK". Answers got like........The existing town's BHs will stay but maybe no new ones. Q: BH @ agriculture land only 36 m high clause???? Ans: no problem as already talk to the MB and shouldn't be a problem.

So, what can I ask if everything is OK and no problem but to wait and see if really OK or not. Maybe, then will be too late and maybe I am getting too nervous and over concerned about the birds. Hope that everything's OK is really OK.

Any question for the Boss (Asso) to answer may PM to me???? May help you to seek answer when happen to meet with the Boss but then no promises, OK?

Lastly, an advice from old hand is to be prepared for any trouble and that your local association should be alert and ready to serve.

36m height ?? that's about 8 or 9 storey high !! The GP stated <12m for the entire building but did not mention the height of "jack roof" is included or excluded.

This post has been edited by aeiou228: Oct 19 2010, 11:35 AM

As for here, finish floor level to soffit of floor slab, we do it at 2.9m height. The concrete floor 150mm good enough. Total 7.5sty. wood size 1" x 8", 30cm c/c. 2layer brickwall with center reinforcement (security).

Unc WW,

I am hoping that the local associations are doing what someone posted here recently (I thk S'wak)...they are going thru the 1GP with fine toothed comb and coming up with counter proposals for the state

Ideally....
What can be made specific and clear should be

Recognising that most local assoc are quite unprepared to undertake the task (like S'wak)..
We can do the same here on the forum and hopefully some readers will take some relevant pts back to their assoc.

Two items of the 1GP were already touched briefly here.
1)height limit
2)GAHP content being part of 1GP

We can cont. with the rest of the 1GP contents...
For those w/o the 1GP, please find it here
http://www.mediafire.com/?8i12aa0jd8c94k9
Please start w/o me as I will be away a few days & w/o access.

Oop!! my mistake...it's 12m ....not higher than the coconut tree, I presume as the government want the Kampong to stay kampong with coconut trees and your BH block the view of our beautiful trees.