Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

Science Transfers power wirelessly, Wifi, 3G. can electricity did that too?

views
     
Drian
post Mar 29 2010, 10:28 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
4,999 posts

Joined: Jan 2003


If it's small amount of power, it's alredy been implemented. If you're talking about transferring megawatts of power wirelessly, then i it has not reach a efficientcy where it is viable.

Drian
post Mar 29 2010, 01:47 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
4,999 posts

Joined: Jan 2003


Wifi signal has probably less than a watt output power. Once it reaches your antenna the amount of power your device can absorb is probably less than 1mW. I don't see how 1mW can charge a battery.

Drian
post Apr 3 2010, 02:20 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
4,999 posts

Joined: Jan 2003


QUOTE(tgrrr @ Mar 31 2010, 06:31 AM)
1mW continuous power can charge a battery albeit over a long time.
*
Assuming a 100% efficiency conversion,(which is not possible btw if you didn't realise it),

P= VI

You need to have approximately 4.5V to charge a Li-On battery.
So the amount of current you can charge is

0.001 = 4.5I
I = 0.2mA

In real world I expect say 40% efficiency that would mean around 0.1mA

Assuming a 1000mAh battery, it would take approximately 10000 hours or 416 days to charge a battery.
However since a battery itself has it's own self discharge and your self discharge is higher than your charging current.
1mW will never be enough to charge a battery.

Drian
post Apr 4 2010, 10:29 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
4,999 posts

Joined: Jan 2003


QUOTE(tgrrr @ Apr 4 2010, 02:56 PM)
Err.. for simplicity sake, I'd assume the 1mW is net received power after transmission and conversion losses. And 1mW is also an arbitrary number for the sake of argument.
My argument that 1mW is sufficient to charge a battery is generally based on the design of solar powered night light.
Assuming the night light LED uses 3mA at 1.2V and needs to run for 8hours per night. That means simple total power drain is just below 29mW. Hence 3mW of continuous charging power for 12 hours per day during daytime will be sufficient for it's night time operation. It's a simple calculations but suggest plausibility. You can see why I think 1mW can charge a battery, just depends on what is the load and application.
*
Yah I can see why you think 1mW can charge a battery because you don't look at the bigger picture and consider things like battery self discharge or switching regulator efficiency . Furthermore you're already assuming you can collect 3mW from a wifi signal. And 3mA at 1.2V, it's probably just a dot of light at night

Are you from EE background?


Added on April 4, 2010, 10:56 pm
QUOTE(tgrrr @ Apr 4 2010, 02:56 PM)


Next consider this. Let's say you are transmitting data using some sort of RF signal from one transmitter to another receiver. Now what's to stop me from say making another receiver that also reads the same RF signal, but only converts the electrical signal I received to powers say an LED?
Both electrical signal and electrical power are made of voltage and current. Whether it's a signal or power is our interpretation and application. Of course in order to create the signal, we modulate data into the signal waveform (commonly called carrier). And usually signal lines doesn't carries much power due to well, it's not designed to transfer power after all.
*
Simple, in a normal reciever there is an amplifier that amplifies the recieved signal. The recieve signal alone is probly in the uA range and is unusable without an amplifier before being fed into a mixer. And the amplifier itself uses power itself what more charging a battery.


This post has been edited by Drian: Apr 4 2010, 10:56 PM
Drian
post Apr 6 2010, 09:59 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
4,999 posts

Joined: Jan 2003


QUOTE(tgrrr @ Apr 5 2010, 10:51 AM)
No I mentioned 3mW can be use to charge a battery for very low power applications. I did not say it must comes from wifi. The question for me was merely, can 3mW or 1mW charge a battery?
I interpret 3mW or 1mW as available net power. You interpret is as before conversion losses. So it's a simple misunderstanding. That in no way means I do not understand regulator efficiency and battery self discharging.

And it's only a small pool of light yeah but I'm only pointing out a product available on the market, not arguing about the pros and cons of it. Also the example is meant to point out such low amount of power is only suitable for very low power application whereby stressing the key issue of wireless power transfer --> transmission losses, which in my mind has always been the bigger picture.

I'm a firmware programmer, which in itself is a field that covers programming and a little on electronics. I'm not strong in analog electronics though so I'm curious about the amplifier you mentioned. Since the purpose here is merely to collect power and not the signal data, is there really a need for amplifier and mixer? I'm assuming the right antenna will convert the carrier waveform into similar electrical waveform. Since it's an oscillating waveform, then theoretically we can use the voltage doubler or boost circuitry concept to boost up to the right amount of voltage and current we want right?
And if amplifier requires power to function and is required in order to extract energy from RF signals, it would be a chicken and egg story and doesn't explains why passive RF tags work.
*
Passive RF Tags works because it requires very little current and they are limited only to approsiamtely 30-50mW. That makes the effective distance approximately 2-3 feet from a 1 watt transmitter with a 0.03% efficiency.If you want to charge a battery 2-3 feet away at a 0.03% efficiency , it's pointless since it has to be so near the transmitter. If you're using in a wifi environment where things are like 20-30 feet away and from a lower power transmitter. You can forget about charging any battery from it. The signal strength decreases with the inverse square of the distance, so your power requirement increases exponentially as the distance grows.

QUOTE
Then theoretically we can use the voltage doubler or boost circuitry concept to boost up to the right amount of voltage and current we want right?


Wow you're expecting voltage doubler to give you double the voltage and current for free?


This post has been edited by Drian: Apr 6 2010, 10:04 AM

 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.0323sec    0.33    6 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 1st December 2025 - 02:51 AM