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Technical LCD TV/Display Discussion Thread | V2, technical discussion on LCD TV/Monitor

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ffrulz
post Mar 28 2010, 12:10 AM

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QUOTE(Agent Orange @ Mar 27 2010, 11:48 PM)
Apart from screen burns... I don't really recommend plasma for gaming!
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Modern Plasmas don't suffer from burn-in more than your typical LCD does nowadays. However some of the might be more susceptible to image retention (IR) but it's not really a big problem. Just need to leave it off for a certain period of time or let it run a move/animation to let the IR run off.

Anyway, if anyone plans to get a Panasonic plasma, if you don't know already, the black levels will rise to LCD levels after 400-1500 hours. So be warned.
ffrulz
post Mar 28 2010, 01:20 AM

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QUOTE(Agent Orange @ Mar 28 2010, 12:22 AM)
Dang.. we got a panasonic plasma hooked to up to a Ps3 in the family room!
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The users on AVSForums have been complaining about it for quite a while already. Even the latest G11/V11 models tend to suffer from it since it's sort of a feature in Panasonic Plasmas.
ffrulz
post Mar 28 2010, 06:06 PM

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QUOTE(LeoLilieno @ Mar 28 2010, 05:06 PM)
As my PS3 utilize my DVi, I bought VGA to DVI convertor and use my VGA cable to connect to my PC. The results is horrible man. My PC image now sucks to the max and I have reverted back to plug in and out the cable. Is there anything else that I can do?
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Your monitor does not have D-Sub/VGA? Only DVI?
ffrulz
post Mar 28 2010, 10:22 PM

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QUOTE(LeoLilieno @ Mar 28 2010, 06:16 PM)
What is D-Sub/VGA? It only has 2 input namely DVi(White Color) and VGA(blue color). Since I used DVI for PS3, I will have to use the blue one for PC. Any help?
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Yeah, that blue port is the VGA port. You can use that to connect to your PC. Have you tried using another VGA cable?
ffrulz
post Mar 29 2010, 04:41 PM

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QUOTE(LeoLilieno @ Mar 29 2010, 09:03 AM)
I use the VGA cable that came as a bundle with my monitor. You think its the cable problem?
Yes I did. My GC does not have a VGA port. Thats why have to buy the VGA-DVI converter. The difference is really big. My monitor's optimum resolution is 1600X1050 and when I use the DVI cable, the pictures are really sharp, crystal and full screen. When I use VGA cable, if I use 1600X1050, its not full screen and the image sucks. You can see the font and the icon all have the blur effect on them. Any idea?
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Try adjusting your refresh rate. Some monitors are finicky when it comes to VGA refresh rates. Make sure your resolution is native as well.

QUOTE(JasonSky @ Mar 29 2010, 04:24 PM)
Bought a Belkin HDMI Cable from All IT last night for RM59 and to my dismay it didn't work on my Sharp a66 sad.gif

When I plugged it in on 1080p there are white dots running all over the place and sound skips. Tried it on all my HDMI ports with the same results.

However the one I purchased is a 2008 model with a short head (about 1 inch) in a plastic packaging. I notice there was another 2007 model with a longer head (about 2 inch) that came in a black paper box packaging.

Which one you guys are using?
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If changing cables do not work, I would suspect its a problem with either the PS3's HDMI port or your monitor's.
ffrulz
post Mar 29 2010, 10:24 PM

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QUOTE(JasonSky @ Mar 29 2010, 05:23 PM)
The cables all work perfectly fine with my other Sony LCD TV. But all my other Sharp a66 faces the same problems at 1080p.
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Which would mean that nothing is wrong with the cables but your display then, since your Sony LCD TV does not experience the problem.

QUOTE(LeoLilieno @ Mar 29 2010, 09:54 PM)
Refresh rate? Is it the one where it shows 60hertz? If its not, where do I change it? Which refresh rate is the best?
My graphic card is 8800GT. After I reinstall the monitor driver, the native resolution appear and it now seems like better than before. However, when I switch to PS3, the monitor keep saying that the resolution is not optimum. How to tell PS3 to use the optimum resolution of 1680X1050?
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Yes refresh rate. Try setting it to the highest supported for your monitor. DVI/HDMI connections are always @ 60Hz but VGA can go above that, make sure your resolution is @ native too, as non-native resolutions will cause blurriness.

The PS3 can only output, 480P (720x480), 720P (1280x720) and (1920x1080) which is 1080P. It is standard for HDMI connections, you cannot change it. Some displays have the option to not scale the image (1:1) if your display does not have this feature then you're in for some blurred IQ then.
ffrulz
post Mar 30 2010, 12:07 PM

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QUOTE(LeoLilieno @ Mar 30 2010, 09:07 AM)
If I use 720P, will it affect the image quality? Frankly speaking the image that I get from playing Dante's Inferno is quite good although its not something to shout about. Maybe i will have to play game with glorious graphic to check it out.

By the way, I am using the auto thing to set the display setting.
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Since your display does not output 16:9 resolutions, it doesn't matter which resolution you set it at. All of them will be scaled full screen according to your display's native resolution and cause some slight to major blur depending on your display's scaler quality.

But normally it does not affect the IQ much, only thing it affects is the Aspect Ratio, characters will get taller and skinnier than intended and so on.

It's better if you set it at 720P. Not a lot of games support native 1080P output out of the box, it's usually sub-720P (Star Ocean 4 which isn't even HD resolution), and 720P.

For 1080P, your PS3 scales the image first then if your display cannot output 1080P, it'll scale it according to it's native resolution, so you lose more IQ there.

Til date, there's only one 1080P game I can think of and that is Gran Turismo 5, but there's a catch, @ 720P, there's 2xAA but @ 1080P there's 0xAA.
ffrulz
post Mar 31 2010, 03:23 PM

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QUOTE(JasonSky @ Mar 30 2010, 05:57 PM)
Have always been a one brand person however I am yet to find a brand that is actually suitable for my current hardware. Hence when I saw someone posting that he got his Belkin HDMI too work on his a66 I was aesthetic but it didn't work on mine sad.gif

Will most likely starting posting HDMI cables in the Garage Sales soon.
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So you're using the Sony display with your PS3 now?

Usually these problems are mostly problems with the console's HDMI or display's HDMI port before cable. As long as you get decent cables around RM35-RM50 regardless of brand since all HDMI cables come from a select few factories in China only. You can trace it via the code on the wire, but if it's braided/shielded then you'll need to look under it.

You don't need to worry about signal degration on short HDMI cables like the ones most of us are using (< 2 meters) but for industry or if you're planning to do a home theater room which needs you to pull the HDMI cable long distances (50 - 100 meters), then you'll need to get a signal booster + better AWG cables.

This post has been edited by ffrulz: Mar 31 2010, 03:31 PM
ffrulz
post Mar 31 2010, 06:54 PM

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QUOTE(KyoLee @ Mar 31 2010, 05:04 PM)
hi every sifu here.. asking a question even though i know the answer.. just ask for recommendation.."i planning to get a cheap 23inch samsung lcd.. but think about play ps3 on it...i suddenly remember sound output issue " sweat.gif
i currently have 17inch lcd samsung in house for pc usage.. and i planning to upgrade higher inch LCD with support hdmi with VGA/Dvi due to recently just bought ps3 and i planning to use the LCD for both PC and PS3 so the lcd i gonna get must LCD with speaker right? there no way to use pc 2.1 speaker on ps3? sigh..
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No, you can use external speakers for your PS3. Refer to http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1325066 for the needed accessories.
ffrulz
post Mar 31 2010, 07:42 PM

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QUOTE(KyoLee @ Mar 31 2010, 07:16 PM)
oooohhhh!!!  thanks ffrulz for guide smile.gif
i saw in thread got mention y splitter, and let said i use hdmi for output display.. means no chance to get audio output thru 2.1speaker set?
edited'

thanks rafieq for another guide

let said i gonna purchase samsung B2330H  which got support DVI/HDMI
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Your PS3 will have two ports. One - HDMI , Two - Playstation Proprietory A/V port.

Your video will come from the HDMI port. Now your PS3 comes with the A/V composite cable right? Yellow,Red and White. So if your speaker's input has the Red and White female jacks then your problem is solved. Just plug those two in.

But if your speaker comes with the Green 2.5mm jack then you'll need the Y-Splitter to convert the two Red and White jacks into one Green jack.
ffrulz
post Apr 6 2010, 03:41 PM

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QUOTE(LeoLilieno @ Apr 6 2010, 11:12 AM)
What do you mean by backlight bleeding? I am also using 226bw ler and my eye does not notice anything. Need pointers from you to see whether I am suffering from bb or not. Pls advice.
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Much more noticeable under no light conditions.
ffrulz
post Apr 6 2010, 06:04 PM

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QUOTE(G@merZ @ Apr 6 2010, 05:38 PM)
hey guys, i need some help here.. erm..

i just gotten my ps3 recently.. i've been playing on it using my tiny computer LCD in my room since day one.. so now i wanted to bring my ps3 out to play in the living room..

currently my living room is using an old school 42' plasma tv that dont even have hdmi and av slot.. only got component/s-video/dvi/rgb and two scart slot that need to use the convertor in order to use the av..

so i bought a hdmi - dvi cable and wanna use it together with the plasma n my ps3.. but no matter how i reset the console there's still no display..

so anyone here can help?
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Check your Plasma display's manual/spec sheet as to whether the DVI port comes with HDCP or not. If not, then you'll need to get a Component cable for your PS3 to display on your plasma display.
ffrulz
post Apr 8 2010, 12:40 AM

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QUOTE(G@merZ @ Apr 6 2010, 06:28 PM)
HDCP? what is that bro?
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QUOTE
High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) is a form of digital copy protection developed by Intel Corporation


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidt...tent_Protection

If you don't have this then you won't be able to output from HDMI. PS3 requires a HDCP compliant display. If your Plasma does not have this (which is highly possible given that you said your panel is very old), then you won't be able to use the HDMI port for your plasma. Get the component cables instead to play 720/1080P.
ffrulz
post Apr 9 2010, 02:38 AM

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QUOTE(Satanist @ Apr 9 2010, 02:22 AM)
Whatever you buy, make sure it has refresh rate of >100hz. Less than that, some action intensive part of games will look annoyingly choppy.
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That is not true. If Title A has slowdowns on a console, having a display that has 120/240Hz refresh will not help at all.

These 120/240Hz refresh rate is targeted at Blu-Ray movies rather than console games due to the fact that the latest Blu-Ray movies are all encoded @ 24fps. Games on the other hand do not sync with the 120/240Hz displays thus there is no effect at all.

In fact, if you had a video which is not divisible by 24/30/60/120/240 then you'll likely be experiencing Judder as well. (This happens when your video's FPS isn't the same as your panel's refresh rate. Thus, for a natural smooth panning movement, you'll have to make sure your video's FPS, let's say 60 has to be the same as your panel's refresh rate, which is also 60Hz.)

And also, some people experience a so-called 'Soap Opera' effect when they had these refresh rate booster features enabled.

QUOTE
Most film is recorded at 24 frames per second, but your LCD TV probably either displays at 60 fps or 120 hz (hertz is just a measurement of frequency per second). There are three main ways to cope with this.

First is to simply display each frame longer, this is the oldest technique in LCD tech. However, its undesirable side effects include the possibility of motion blur, or of judder. Judder is an artifact of adjusting the framerate and it looks like a sort of stutter in movement that would otherwise be smooth (a slow pan, for instance).

The second technique is one used on Plasmas and CRT TVs. Instead of showing a bright image the whole time, they display the frame, then a short frame of either darkness or a very dimmed picture. This alleviates much of the issue with judder and motion blur as it allows your brain to fill in the gap faster than you can consciously notice. It is also an old technique, and is used in theaters. It provides the traditional cinema feel.

The most recent and advanced technique is motion interpolation. Motion interpolation is a process by which your TV analyzes the current frame, and the next frame, then creates an average. It inserts these averaged frames in between. The result is extremely smooth motion with no motion blur and judder becomes almost non-existent. There are a few technical issues with this, including the possibility of ghosting or artifacts in rare cases. Also the smooth movement this creates is slightly disconcerting.


Source

EDIT : Case in point, these features are just 'bonus' features to the display itself. It's the marketing people that exaggerates them by a whole hundred miles. Though for me, I would rather have a display that has a 24Hz refresh option for Blu-Ray movies instead of these 120/240Hz options.

This post has been edited by ffrulz: Apr 9 2010, 02:43 AM
ffrulz
post Apr 9 2010, 03:32 PM

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QUOTE(Satanist @ Apr 9 2010, 12:20 PM)
Im not so sure about that, I personally have a Acer H233H which is locked to 60hz. Playing games like GT5 P, exhibits some flicker of vertical lines but the Sony Bravia I have in showroom, doesnt do this.. It the same thing when I used to play games on the PC without turning on the Vsync option esp when the FPS > 60. What does that mean?
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These vertical lines you speak of is an example of Tearing. Meaning your game's FPS is running higher/lower than the panel's refresh rate. To solve this situation, VSync has to be turned on.

QUOTE
Screen tearing is a visual artifact in video where information from two or more different frames is shown in a display device in a single screen draw.

The artifact occurs when the video feed sent to the device isn't in sync with the display's refresh, be it due to non-matching refresh rates, or simply lack of sync between the two. During video motion, screen tearing creates a torn look as edges of objects (such as a wall or a tree) fail to line up.


Source

I do give credit to motionflow technology being able to make films look smoother and the like, however I still rest my case that it still doesn't do anything much to games, especially on consoles due to different titles on different machines having different framerates. Some have uncapped FPS, some are VSync-ed, some have slowdowns which motionflow can't even fix because it's due to the hardware being choked thus sloppy FPS.

Motionflow is mainly targeted for Blu-Ray movies to make motion smoother, but some people are not used to it thus they call it the 'Soap Opera' effect which was pointed out in my previous post.

But some models from manufacturers have poorly implemented motionflow technologies and some panels will exhibit artifacts and the like as gnsumas pointed out. Which is why I said when it comes to Blu-Ray movies, a 24Hz refresh rate panel is still the best as it is 1:1 sync-ed to the FPS of the video itself.

This post has been edited by ffrulz: Apr 9 2010, 03:35 PM
ffrulz
post Apr 9 2010, 03:52 PM

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QUOTE(Satanist @ Apr 9 2010, 03:41 PM)
Hmm youre maybe right, but where can u get a 1:1 24hz refresh rate panel??? Moreover, ps3 games are > 30 FPS. Does that mean alot of screen tearing?
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Here is an old list of LCD TVs that support 1080p24, I can't find a newer list. But if you're looking for one, look at the manual or something that talks about 24Hz or the manufacturer's website.

1080p24 panels

Not all PS3 games have the same FPS, in fact there are a lot of titles that experience tearing, I would think majority of PS3 games exhibit screen tearing, X360 games as well due to unstable framerates.

Head over to http://www.lensoftruth.com, and look at their Head2Head articles to see which games experience screen tearing and which ones don't.

EDIT : Here's an even longer list of displays that support 1080p24 and also 5:5 pulldown without motion enhancers on.

Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate

This post has been edited by ffrulz: Apr 9 2010, 04:12 PM
ffrulz
post Apr 9 2010, 05:24 PM

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QUOTE(Satanist @ Apr 9 2010, 05:12 PM)
My arguement is this:

If you use a 24hz only LCD. Wouldnt you get a more pronounced screen tearing issue coz, PS3 games > 30 FPS > 24Hz?

Screen tearing in gaming terms usually means that the TV/display refresh rate cannot handle the higher output of the video card.

The list of the multiplied LCD TV you gave, with 5:5 pulldown or 24hz/p compatible, they are >100hz TVs isnt it?

Would you not agree then, In order to get the best experience of both worlds (games/movies), a >100hz TV is cool?
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I specifically said that I would rather have a 24Hz display for Blu-Ray movies. I did not said that I would use them for gaming.

If you have read the link, I would assume you would already know about there are two type of panels that are >100Hz. One that displays true multiples of 24 via 5:5 pulldown. And another that adds motion interpolation (motionflow) to the image.

Some of them are 120/240Hz and some of them display it natively 1920x1080 @ 24Hz.

EDIT : So in the end, to get the best out of Blu-Ray and the now defunct HD-DVD movies, you would be better off with a panel that displays 1080p24 or make sure your display is outputting @ a true multiple of 24, which in this case is 120Hz via 5:5 without motionflow features.

As for gaming, screen tearing will only be solved via VSync, if Title A on the PS3 does not have VSync turned on, therefore tearing will occur whether or not your panel is >100Hz or 50/60Hz, which brings me back to my original post stating that neither motionflow nor >100Hz refresh rate will do much difference to games.

This post has been edited by ffrulz: Apr 9 2010, 05:35 PM
ffrulz
post Apr 9 2010, 06:00 PM

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QUOTE(Satanist @ Apr 9 2010, 05:51 PM)
If you read my recommendation post, I did not say anything about motionflow did i?

As for gamin, correct...screen tearing will occur but it will be more PRONOUNCED in a TV thats < 100hz. It will be even more WORSE with a 24hz~50hz TV.Do you not Agree?
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Your original post could mean either >100Hz with motionflow or without motionflow. In regards to these panels, some will only output >100Hz with motionflow (or rather frame/motion interpolation) while some will output >100Hz without motionflow provided you turn something off.

As to whether screen tearing will be more pronounced or not, that depends on how much of a difference between your game's FPS and the display's refresh rate.

Let's say Title A's FPS is 30 FPS. Your display is currently set to output @ 1920x1080 24Hz. If you had it VSync-ed, your game will run at 24FPS. Thus tearing will not occur. However if the game is not VSync-ed tearing will occur however it might or might not be that noticeable due to the fact that 24 and 30 is only 6 digits away.

If your game is running at 30 FPS while your display is set to 120Hz, the difference itself is already huge, so tell me which will be more prominent in regards to tearing then sir?

For consoles, tearing most of the time is unavoidable since the FPS is all over the place for different titles.

For PC Gaming however, if your GPU can manage to push out >100FPS for every title, then by all means, get a >100Hz panel and VSync it (Important). If your GPU cannot push out such framerates, do you not agree then a standard 60Hz display is better then?
ffrulz
post Apr 9 2010, 06:41 PM

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QUOTE(Satanist @ Apr 9 2010, 06:15 PM)
I'm not sure which ones will force motionflow to be ON all the time. That wasnt the emphasis of my recommendation.

As I've said, screen tearing will be more pronounced when the video output of the PC/PS3 exceeds the refresh of the TV

In your example, a 120hz TV is capable of supporting frames until 120FPS. Whats a measly 30-70FPS to it then sir?
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Yes, your recommendation states that one has to get a panel that supports a refresh rate higher than 100Hz to avoid choppy scenes, which is not true.

These choppy scenes in games are influenced by the hardware (in this case PS3) not being able to output sufficient frames during intensive scenes, which in this case we call it lag/stutter.

Refresh rate of the monitor does not influence the smoothness during gaming. Refresh rate will only play a part to avoid screen tearing if VSync is in play. Thus these are two different topics.

In regards to whether 60Hz or 120Hz is better to avoid screen tearing, for the PC, generally a 60Hz panel will be sufficient, provided your GPU is able to output more than 60FPS for every title, therefore you can VSync to avoid tearing. If you are confident your display can output more than 120Hz for every title, then by all means get a panel that supports 120Hz refresh rate and VSync it to avoid tearing.

If you do not wish to VSync your PC Games and your GPU is able to output >60FPS but <120FPS then get a 120Hz panel then, however there are some games that if are left running at uncapped FPS and it's >70FPS~ then you might experience fast forward/turbo mode glitch for those titles.

For the console, it does not matter whether your display is 60Hz or 120Hz, since most console titles can't reach 60FPS constant in the first place (other than Dante's Inferno).

(For this I apologise for not stating earlier that 24Hz is only supported for Blu-Ray and HD-DVD movies only AFAIK. When it comes to the PS3 and other consoles, during gaming, they will not output @ 24Hz, but rather 60Hz or 50Hz depending on the region of the game itself)

So in this case, if a game is 30FPS constant and the panel is 24Hz, (albeit impossible during gaming), yes tearing will occur. However, if you remember that tearing does not occur only when the FPS is > than the Refresh Rate of the display only. It occurs because the FPS does not sync with the Refresh Rate of the monitor.

Thus regardless of whether you get a 60Hz or 120Hz panel for your PS3, tearing will still occur due to the fact that PS3 titles do not have a constant FPS output.
ffrulz
post Apr 9 2010, 07:56 PM

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QUOTE(Satanist @ Apr 9 2010, 07:29 PM)
Of course I said >100hz, coz I experienced slight flickering even with my 60hz LCD. Okaay, maybe choppy wasn't an accurate word for screen tearing coz thats what it looks like firsthand to me.

As I came from a PC gaming scene first and I can first hand tell you that even for PCs, the framerate is also never constant so its not what causes screen tearing. You can test this with old games like Quake 3 or benchmark utilities.

The screen tearing problem occurs when the FPS output exceeds the LCD framerate which is why I turn on the V-Sync or limit the FPS output to less than that of the monitor's. You'll never get screen tearing problem with framerates below the monitors refreshrate. When it dips down to sub 28FPS, you'll get lagging.
Yes for PCs Tearing is the result of the FPS being higher than the Panel's RR. However for consoles this is not the case. Explain then why is there tearing @ sub 60 FPS with a 60Hz display then? It's because it's out of sync with the display's RR.

Somehow, tearing on console games are an example that you can get tearing on a 60Hz display but yet the game's FPS is way below that.

Bottom line is, if you want no tearing = VSync, it doesn't matter whether you have a 60Hz or 120Hz or 480Hz plasma display. Console Games are hardly VSync-ed.

This post has been edited by ffrulz: Apr 9 2010, 07:57 PM

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