Damn version 2. Can't reply to this post directly. But he's right (I assume the poster is a he). So far these are the channels on Measat 3a: All Sports Network, Astro Aruna, Astro RIA, Baby TV, Food Network HD, Ginx TV, Jim Jam, Life Inspired HD, Sundance Channel Asia HD, Unitel Classica Asia, Voom HD Networks and Women's Entertainment HD. Aruna and Ria on Measat 3a seem like duplicate channels to test the satellite's capabilities. The rest seems like they are merely being downlinked to the rest of the world. Info on Measat 3a. In case you are wondering, Measat-3a is named as such to avoid the dreaded 4.

The bulk of the channels are on Measat 3 including AXN Korea HD, National Geographic Channel HD Asia, History HD Asia, Nat Geo Wild Asia HD. If you want ALL of these HD channels, you need to obtaine a GlobeCast decoder.

So if using the old dish with B.yond means you can receive the HD channels, it has wide implications.
1) When Measat 3 is retired, those who are using the old dish with B.yond is screwed since the new wider dish can receive more signal. (Call Astro and get yours changed now!) The bigger dish reduces rain fade that affects the KU band. Migrating off Measat 3 means that C-band transmission will cease as Measat3a is KU band only.
2) HD on B.yond can easily expand to include the Measat 3a transponders as well as the current HD transponders on Measat 3.


fuad

Not true. The majority of HDTVs out there has overscan that CANNOT BE TURNED OFF. The exception that I know of so far is HDTVs by Panasonic.

You won't know this unless you have movies that are in 1.85 aspect ratio, either DVD or BD. Play them and if you see small black bars (not big black bars) on the top and bottom of the screen, then you know our HDTV does not have any overscan.

Those garbage are data useless for everyone except broadcasters. However, the TV standards are such that you are not supposed to see the data on ANY TV. HOWEVER, most CRT manufactures go beyond that which meant that you're seeing even LESS of the actual signal.

If you're in the market for a BD HTiB, see if you like the sound coming from the Philips HTS7540. It has coax and Toslink in; you can use Toslink with a PS3.


fuad

This post has been edited by writesimply: Jan 1 2010, 10:01 PM

Thanks for the info. I'll look into it. Usually the sales assistants don't take out the TV remote.

A lot of movies are in 1.85. While it's true that most action/sci-fi movies are in 2.39, a lot more movies are in 1.85 since more dramas and comedy are shot this way; shooting 2.39 in anamorphic using film requires more lights which means a higher budget. Examples of action movies in 1.85 are the Jurassic Park trilogy, Bram Stoker's Dracula and Guy Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes.


fuad

The reason has to do with reducing the number of phone calls Astro CS will get.

Astro can actually do signal resolution via HDMI and output SD as SD and HD as 720p or 1080i. HOWEVER, that means for ONE SECOND, the HDTV will go blank as it applies the right setting to the signal (so that SD/720p is upconverted to fill up the entire screen). You can see this clearly when you play Blu-ray Discs when the disc cycles from 1080i to 1080p to 480p because of your selection.

So imagine somebody flipping the channels on Astro.

There are flags in the video stream that identifies it as such so that the decoder doesn't do a lot of work.

The decoder is smart but it's also software driven. If Astro wants to screw it up majorly, they can upload a firmware that can do that. But they won't.

If you set your output as 720p, a 720p signal goes out as is while 1080i will be downconverted to 720p.

If you set your output as 1080i, a 720p signal goes out upconverted to 1080i while 1080i will be released as is.

Apart from upconverting SD video to 720p/1080i, we don't know if NR is applied or if so, how much.

Which flaw does HDCP have? Sounds like you want to hack the HD signal before it gets to the HDCP chip. But that chip may already be integrated in the decoding chip.

Worry only that when B.yond enables recording, it will record the pure digital stream prior to decoding.


fuad

1080i60 consumes as much data as 1080p30.


fuad

Right now, the majority of pro HD cameras on sale to be used for news coverage or concert are in 1080p only because the price difference is minimal (the bigger cost is in storage media). But back before BD, the majority of those cameras are in 1080i only since that was the standard in HD broadcasting. Look at some of the earlier concert recordings on BD and you'll see that they are only 1080i. These are the shot-on-video productions.

Back before the RED, TV shows are shot using film then telecined to 1080i with EFX also in 1080i. With the RED (and other pro digital cameras) they can shoot at 2Kwhile still maintaining the film look and ask for VFX work at 2K as well. The final cut for archive will be at 2K then they deliver a downconverted 1080i. Some shows are still using 35mm and some are using 16mm (BBC dramas).

Astro/RTM can start investing in 1080p cameras only if they want to archive or sell their RTM concerts and shows on BD. If it's just for news coverage, they can get a whole bunch of 1080i cameras since that's the broadcast standard.

With B.yond, Astro has pushed (not like other's didn't try before) the HD bandwagon further for Malaysia. I think that in the next couple of years, the pro HD camera and post pro businesses will boom because of the amount of shows that production companies need to deliver to Astro in HD. If RTM says they are going to HD soon, that will cause a bigger boom. The HD expansion will also cause make-up artists to be extra careful with their work, and the same thing is true for set designers and gaffers.

---

Added on January 2, 2010, 3:13 pm Here's a simple analogy: Think of the HDMI cable as an intranet e-mail system (intranet is internal network system as opposed to external ie internet). It's job is to ensure that each e-mail and its attachment are sent perfectly and timely.

Now say using the "Astro provided" intranet, e-mails received look exactly the same as they did when they were sent. But using the "Monster" intranet, the e-mails received seem to look brighter, with more crispness and cute backgrounds then they did before they were sent. The rational reasoning could only be two: 1) The Monster intranet is adding things to the signal that you didn't ask it to do; or 2) it's all in your head aka placebo effect.

The same argument is used when people talk about DTS HDMA and Dolby TrueHD on BD players. The sound should sound the same whether you let the player bitstream it to a HD receiver or if the player decodes it and sends the MPCM to the HD receiver. If it sounds better decoded by the HD receiver, then the receiver is sweetening the audio without you asking it to. For purists, that's a no-no.


fuad

This post has been edited by writesimply: Jan 2 2010, 03:14 PM

Unless you're rich, don't rush in to buy a HDTV. Otherwise you'd have buyer's regret.

B.yond will be in HD regardless if your TV is not. So look around for a HDTV that you can afford with a picture quality you like with a design you like, then see if has HDCP as well as 2/3 HDMI inputs.

If you have the red/white stereo cables, use that. It should work.


fuad

Here's what you post originally:

Anyone can recommend digital coaxial cable from decoder to tv dvi in? I dun hav home theater (yet). I only saw one type of digital coaxial cable at senq but need to connect to digital audio in @Av receiver

So are you trying to connect this digital coax to your TV's audio input using DVI in? If this is the case, then you DO use the red/white cables and depending on the audio in, you either use RCA-to-RCA stereo or RCA-to-miniplug stereo. THESE CABLES DELIVER ANALOG AUDIO, NOT DIGITAL.

If you want digital coax, it's using a single RCA cable to the digital coax IN to a receiver.

Then you can search for the online manual/specs to know for sure if the HDTV has HDCP.

Not really. Some channels/programs are only in 720p. The decoder can UPCONVERT the 720p to 1080i.

First off, you need to know that you're not going to get master tape quality with B.yond HD. The closest to that is BD.

Secondly, since the video is not 1080p, 8 Mbps can still do a lot. You have to remember that H.264 is not like VCD where the MPEG-1 is at a constant bitrate. This is variable encoding where the bitrate is allocated higher if the scene is filled with more info. If the scene is a static blue screen, for example, it needs less than 2Mbps.

Sound like you claim these broadcasts are in 1080p. How are they transmitted anyways? OTA or satellite?

MORE HD? Explain please.

What I know from Googling: Vietnam has only Vinasat-1 for now. It has 12 KU and 8 C transponders. So far they have these channels in HD: VTC HD 1, VTC HD 2, VTC HD 3, ESPN Asia HD, National Geographic Channel HD Asia, CCTV HD and Luxe TV HD. So using 20 transponders, they'll provide 30 HD channels and 70 SD channels sometime this year.

Measat 3 has 24 KU and 24 C transponders. Measat 3a has 12 KU and 12 C transponders (original info claims that it's only KU band). So combined, 72 transponders. No doubt a lot of it will be leased to other providers.

But just do the numbers. 30 HD channels with 20 transponders vs so far 4 HD channels with 72 transponders.

No idea. But probably DVB S2 since the tech is already there and it allows for future expansion; once everyone migrates to B.yond, DVB MPEG-2 transmission can cease which will enable better picture quality. DVB S2 transmission is already being done aboard Measat 3 but not on Astro's downlink.


fuad

This post has been edited by writesimply: Jan 3 2010, 12:09 AM

The highest on BD is about 34Mbps. That's just video at 1080p. But that's not sustainable and only used for scenes with many movement.


fuad

Of course I read your post. It's 1920x1080i but that's from the Astro's uplink side. If the football match they receive is at 720p, Astro can upconvert it and flag it at 1080i before uplinking it.

Don't confuse the downlink data stream with source resolution. A broadcaster can take 480p/576p source, upconvert it, flag it as 1080i, uplink that show and it still won't look like a true 1080i source. But the data stream will tell you it's 1080i.

I hope you understand the concept of variable encoding. And if you do, you'd understand that upper bandwidth limit is not set in stone (to a certain hardware degree). Astro can increase the bandwidth for each of the HD channels to 12-18 if it chooses to. At the same time, those NHK and CCTV could also decrease the bandwidth in the future. By the way, I checked the Chinasat 6B details. On that satellite, there's 4 HD channels, one of which is CCTV. All of those HD channels are uplinked using MPEG-2 which is less efficient at video encoding than H.264, which is what Astro is using for its HD channels. I can't find info about NHK but I bet they have more than two satellites on the air than Measat; more satellites means more transponders.

You could ask Astro technical department why they decide on 8Mbps and if they could bump it up to 12-18Mbps. Let us know what they say.


fuad

I saw your post but you didn't seem to understand what I wrote.

Vinasat has 12 KU and 8 C transponders. Currently they have 7 HD channels. You said that by Q1 of 2010, they'll have 30 HD channels. If they are transmitting at 12 Mbps now, do you think they can sustain the same bandwidth to all 23 other HD channels using the same number of transponders? Take into account that by that same time they are increasing their SD channels from 21 to 70.

To make a fair comparison, you'd have to compare the same channels. Astro doesn't have Fashion TV HD. But the Asiasat 5 satellite also doesn't have 4 HD channels that Astro has. In fact, besides FTV HD, the only other HD channel is Luxe HD. Asiasat can up the bandwidth easily.

Also, Astro has not migrated to full DVB-S2 transmission which will increase their bandwidth by 30%. To migrate completely means that every Astro box will have to be changed to DVB-S2 box.

Of course, it's obvious now that you have one of those 6' wide C-band satellite dish on top of B.yond. Otherwise you won't have access to FTV HD, CCTV HD, Luxe or NHK HD.
Yes. It allows for more interactivity.

As compared to standard definition TV? Of course.

---

Added on January 3, 2010, 3:01 am Astro hasn't migrated to DVB-S2 yet. It's still transmitting from Measat 3 using DVB. That's probably why it's constraining bandwidth. Once they've migrated fully, bandwidth can be increased.

FTV HD on Asiasat 5 is DVB-S2 H.264.
CCTV is still using MPEG-2 hence the higher bit-rate.


fuad

This post has been edited by writesimply: Jan 3 2010, 03:02 AM

First off, I'm not affiliated with Astro or its subsidiaries or anything relating to their B.yond business. I do believe that you can complain about B.yond but you have to be fair about it.

So are you seriously comparing Astro to NHK? NHK is the father of HDTV and have developed it over 20 years. NHK is developing Ultra HD right now. Do you want to compare B.yond against that as well?

Your math is off. You cannot lump HD, SD and radio channels onto the total amount of bandwidth 9 transponders have. That's because each transponder has a bandwidth limit.

10982 Vertical signal on Measat has HBO HD and NGC HD, with 10 SD channels. So if like you say, HD video is 8 Mbps, then the two HD channels + Dolby Digital 5.1 are 8348kbps x 2= 16696kbps. That leaves 13304kbps for the rest of the 10 channels for audio and video. The other transponders have between 10-13 channels, most of which are SD.

The good thing about DVB is that it employs multiplexing prior to uplink, which provides bit allocation to the channels that need it most. This smart variable encoding ensures that a decent video quality can be achieved. Can Astro reduces the number of channels per transponder to ensure a higher quality? Sure but I'm not privy to their business plan. 10-13 channels per transponder is what they are going for at the moment.

The bit rate only tells you the numbers but not about video codec. MPEG-1 is the VCD codec. It's not efficient at all nor is it variable. MPEG-2 is the one currently employed by Astro's SD channels as well as on DVD. It's a variable bit-rate codec which means it can go higher or lower.

In the above example, 13304kbps means that on average 1.3Mbps will go to each of the 10 channels on that transponder. But don't forget that not all channels will need 1.3Mbps at any given moment. Some need a higher rate for 2-3 seconds and some lower. That's where the multiplexer on the ground will determine which channel will get what bitrate at which time to maximize video quality.

With H.264 at 13304kbps for 10 SD channels, the video quality will certainly increase.

Can Astro ease up on the channel loading per transponder? Sure. But how will that affect their business plan? Will that require higher subscription fees?

MPEG-4 is H.264.

---

Added on January 3, 2010, 1:52 pm Actually, if you look at BD, the bitrates there for 1080p can drop to below 8 Mbps while still maintaining high quality; this is done using both H.264 and VC-1 codecs. But for "normal" scenes, 12-15 Mbps at 1080p is a better option.

You must remember that D-Theater used MPEG-2. At 28Mbps on H.264, it's very high quality.

Check if your HDTV is HDCP compliant. If it's not, that will explain why your DVI-HDMI converter doesn't work.

It does. It also works via HDMI-to-Receiver.


fuad

This post has been edited by writesimply: Jan 3 2010, 01:56 PM

True.

Not necessarily true. See below.

HDCP is quite new, ratified by the FCC in 2004 and by the EU in 2005. HD broadcast and HDTVs have been around much longer than HDCP. So his TV may not have HDCP.

This is another possible explanation. Many US HDTVs are i30/60 or p24 only so i25/50 sources gets a blank signal. However most HD projectors use all of the HD standards.


fuad

This post has been edited by writesimply: Jan 3 2010, 03:32 PM

Alright, I'll bite. YOU go spend RM300 (or what ever the price is) on a Monster HDMI cable and then compare it to the free HDMI cable Astro gives with B.yond.

As to why do they keep selling them? Fools rush in.


fuad

Do you remember to reset the resolution to 576 when you're watching via component?


fuad

What overscan does is zoom into the picture by about 3-5%. The internal video scaler will compensate by filling up the gaps. But just like zooming in a photo, it degrades it a bit.

For me, I would turn off overscan primarily because I have movies in 1.85:1 aspect ratio in my collection. I want to see the whole picture and not a zoomed in one.

Bad analogy. Four people can be in that JB-KL trip and each of them will experience things differently; the smell, the sights, the jokes and the silence. Just ask each of them what do they get out of the trip and each will tell things differently.

Digital data is not like that. You can spend money on those expensive HDMI cables but at the end, they'll still deliver the same digital data than RM22 HDMI cable from Carrefour can give.


fuad

This post has been edited by writesimply: Jan 5 2010, 01:27 AM

The info came from Lyngsat.com. Measat 3 on Lyngsat.

More than two members have indicated that using the old dish still gave them the HD channels. That indicated that something is working unexpectedly.


fuad

So you're saying that HD in the US (Dish/DirectTV?) is of lower quality than Astro with 8Mbps of H.264? If this is the case, and if one transponder can handle about 30Mbps, that means at maximum four HD channels can be used per transponder.

I'm surprised that Astro is also transmitting the stereo channels since 5.1 can be folded down to stereo.


fuad

That's a switcher. Three HDMI INs and one HDMI out. You want something like this:



Costs US$61. 1.3B compliant which means it's HDCP compliant too.


fuad

Yes. You only apply the splitter to divide the video signal into two. I guess with HDCP compliant, you can also use it to feed audio signal as well but I've never heard anyone doing it like that. Usually they want to split video signals.

The more splits you want to make, the more expensive the splitter is.


fuad