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English Clubs Liverpool Football Club- The Kop Talks 2010, Stoke 1-1 Liverpool- CURSED!

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Duke Red
post Dec 14 2009, 11:31 AM

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I was actually pretty optimistic when I got up in the morning on Sunday. I mean we had Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres fit again, not to mention a healthy looking Aquilani who to my surprise started from the bench. We were also playing at Anfield.

We started off really well, repelling anything that came forward, keeping Arsenal on their heels each time we advanced. The players looked up for it, pressuring and snapping at anyone not in red whenever thay had the ball. This is it I thought! This is the way we should be playing! It was proven last season that when we took the game to other sides, even the great European teams cringe with fear.

Alas, our second half performances reinforced the stereotype that while we play good football after going behind, we often fall back into a false sense of security after going ahead. Forget that we have a stonewall penalty disallowed by a certain Howard Webb who like our players, seems to be off the pace this season. Forget that we had the lion's share of possession in the first half. In reality, our over reliance on Fernando Torres stood out like a sore thumb again. Our no.9 has clearly not regained his match fitness and sharpness. Arsenal came back with aplomb in the 2nd half, despite no change in personal. In fact, they ended the game with more possession than us. What happened? In the postmatch interview, both Fabregas and Vermaelen attributed it to the hair dryer treatment they received from Wenger at halftime. If this is true, it just comes to show how tactical know-how isn't what gives you the edge over relatively similar astute opponent. Drive and determination gives you that little bit extra you need, as we clearly lacked that in the 2nd half. Perhaps Rafa should start throwing his shoe about the dressing room more. What I find most distressing is that Almunia was a relative spectator the entire 2nd half as he didn't have a single save to make.

Yes, Howard Webb had a really poor game but I urge everyone to look beyond that, and at the bigger picture. I don't pretend to know what the solution is but something has to be done if we are to finish in the top four. The way we are playing, I don't see us finishing in the top 6 even, considering the likes of City, Villa and Spurs seemed to have improved over last season. This to me is a very real and big concern. Something that blind faith alone will not mend. Do we need more players? Do we need new owners? A new manager? I don't know. All I know is that we aren't playing with a positive vibe and this needs to be addressed.


Added on December 14, 2009, 11:37 amOn another note, was anything done for the 50th anniversary of Bill Shankly's appointment as Liverpool manager?

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


This post has been edited by Duke Red: Dec 14 2009, 11:39 AM


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Duke Red
post Dec 14 2009, 01:59 PM

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QUOTE(rushmode @ Dec 14 2009, 12:43 PM)
the team did (sit back after a lead) a couple of times this season and end up either draw or lose. andy gray (the bias twat) did mentioned this during the game and it is true. we are coming back to GH era where 1 goal is good enough and try as hard to protect. it's ok if the back 4 are solid but it ain't.

early in the season i've said i believe rafa can bring home the title but based on last few games.. i dont believe it anymore. the entertaining football that the team played last season are gone. yes, we lost key players in the summer and some injured but it's rafa's fault for not having a good backup. look at mu and arse, the have as many injured players as liverpool but they managed to stay consistent with the subs. oh did u guys looks at the sub yesterday, 4 out of 6 is defensive. entertaining innit?

i'd care less if liverpool don't win anything this season as long as we mount a decent challenge.
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The problem is that while we are trying our level best to be systematic and efficient, we are moving further away from becoming ruthless? Why? It's simple. To be ruthless, it requires that you gamble to an extent. It means that after you score a goal, you don't start giving your opponent the ball, daring them to attack you. Adopting a "break us down if you can" mentality is in itself, risky business as well. It means you go for the jugular. When you've hit one past your opponent and he's shaken, go in for the quick fill. Don't let up. Time and time again, we let our opponents compose themselves, allowing them time to get into their rhythm.

Some seasons ago under Houllier, Ferguson commented that if you want to score against Liverpool, you need to run at them. Back then we had two defensive rocks in Hyypia and Henchoz but a big factor to why we were so miserly at the back, was because we often played with 11 men in our own half, with our midfielders dropping back to the 20 yard line. It's the same problem we're having now. How uncomfortable do we look each time we're having to defend a quick counterattack. It's not uncommon to see us at our sixes and sevens even if we're defending against 3 players who steam towards goal. It's encouraging to see two of our players crowding out and opponent but this also means, we're left exposed somewhere. Some of you may have noticed that we're often caught out when the ball is played across our goal, because our defence gets dragged to either end, resulting in there being an exposed opponent on the far end.
Duke Red
post Dec 14 2009, 04:23 PM

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You can take everything away from a man, everything but his pride. It's the same with the club. You can take away the success and the trophies that come with it, but you cannot take away our faith. When someone posts something negative, does this mean he doesn't have faith? If it did, he wouldn't still be a fan. It doesn't make sense to stand by something when you know for sure, there is and never will be, a silver lining in the cloud.

Hmm there seems to be a rising number of one-liner posts. Don't we sometimes criticise people who come in here to spout of non-sensical one-liners? If we want to be different, then let's act different.
Duke Red
post Dec 14 2009, 04:47 PM

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Why do you guys feel compelled to respond when you know he is nothing but a mere attention seeking git? If you look at the quality of his posts, it's clear he lacks insight and intellect, so why bother engaging?

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Dec 14 2009, 04:48 PM
Duke Red
post Dec 15 2009, 11:05 AM

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QUOTE(Casanova88 @ Dec 14 2009, 05:20 PM)
Haha..

I know it's hard to accept the FACT that liverpool is  out of the EPL title race but one thing for sure Rafa is doing a wonderful job(He still got the support from fans) plus Liverpool can nly play hard & smart just to beat MU.  icon_question.gif
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I imagine it's just as hard for you to accept the FACT that you are a cowardly, attention deprived, nerdy loser who lives his life through a computer screen because this is the only place he can talk smack and not get smacked for it. Yes, I said "COWARDLY". Prove me wrong?
Duke Red
post Dec 15 2009, 03:55 PM

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Lucas is our new Igor Biscan isn't he? Both were played out of position and they responded by playing like crap. Both have heart and both were wanted by top European sides. Both get on with their respective jobs with no complains.
Duke Red
post Dec 15 2009, 10:27 PM

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QUOTE(Angel of Deth @ Dec 15 2009, 09:49 PM)
Babel is great just Rafa dont let him play often.
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I have a suspicion that Babel will do much better if he were playing for your team. You lot attack as a unit and you are lighting quick going forward. Ryan Babel likes to take players on but the problem with Liverpool is that we seldom push too many forward, and he gets crowded out. I really do believe he'll take to the way you play, just like a fish takes to water.
Duke Red
post Dec 16 2009, 10:36 AM

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Hmm seems Kuyt has become increasingly unpopular. Let's delve a little deeper into his predicament. If posters can sympathise with Lucas being played out of position, can the same not be said of Kuyt? The Premiership is played at a high tempo (unless you're Liverpool tongue.gif), and pace has become increasingly important. If you are a winger, you either need to be quick, tricky or both. Kuyt has neither of this traits. What he does well is he tracks back to help defensively, and he runs himself to the ground. Going forward, I personally think he has good movement off the ball. Yes, Kuyt does play on the right but like Babel, he usually players on the right side of a trident in attack, he isn't stuck wide right like he is with us sometimes. Anyone remember last season when we started playing positive football for a change and Kuyt was played further up the park where he flourished? He ended the season with 15 goals to his name. That's my take. If you sympathise with Lucas, why not Kuyt?
Duke Red
post Dec 16 2009, 01:51 PM

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What is the definition of "not fully fit" anyway? I mean Rafa played Torres even when he wasn't "fully fit", as he did Gerrard prior. So what does this term actually mean? I know for a fact it doesn't refer to a player who is still in crutches.
Duke Red
post Dec 16 2009, 03:21 PM

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I wouldn't pay too much attention to what's been said. I mean wasn't the Everton game supposed to be the turning point of our season, or was it the Man Utd game? Weren't we supposed to still be in the Champions League? Do the talking on the pitch I say.
Duke Red
post Dec 17 2009, 09:56 AM

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Along with some other posters, I was hoping that we'd at some point drop Gerrard back in midfield to partner Masch and possible pair N'Gog up with Torres, or have Benayoun slot into the hole. Gerrard hasn't been at his best all season playing behind Torres and perhaps a change will have done him good.
Duke Red
post Dec 17 2009, 12:09 PM

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QUOTE(vreis @ Dec 17 2009, 11:18 AM)
No, it means Aquilani becomes the linkman instaed of Gerrard & also means Lucas gonna warm the bench  whistling.gif
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It also means we have the option of changing our shape if we need to, instead of being stubbornly persistent. Having options never hurt.

QUOTE(livingmonolith @ Dec 17 2009, 11:53 AM)
gerrard does look to be losing some of his touches for the past couple of months, slack passings, overambitious crosses and shots.

while i understand that he may not be fully fit, i actually thought a 70%-fit gerrard will be able to terrorize defence more than what he's doing now. i guess i'm wrong. at the moment he's losing and conceding possession easily, and isn't snapping on opposition players' heels as frequently as he did.

torres has been holding up well on his own in front but i don't think he can save us every time with goals out of nowhere. we're having shortage of support from midfield and gerrard is one of the main culprit for that this season. he's been heavily relied upon that when he lost his form nobody else managed to do what he usually does.
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Though Gerrard and Torres has formed a partnership, I still think Stevie is most effective playing in a deeper role and it has all to do with what I think is his trademark, which is to knock the ball forward into spaces, chasing it down while steaming at full speed towards goal. If we manage to find someone to pair Torres with upfront, it'll draw some attention away from Stevie giving him more room to work. Right now, he's often restrained. Playing him deeper also helps us defensively because he is one of the better defenders amongst attacking midfielders.
Duke Red
post Dec 20 2009, 02:34 PM

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Pompey
We were crap once again, and there's not much more to say than that. Playing the league's basement club and mustering only 1 shot on target? It isn't as though we were blightened by injuries either. Once again we hard a fair share of possession in the first half, and once again we didn't capatalise on it. Forget that we were down to 10 men, we were absolutely abysmal at times going forward in the second half. Our passing was poor, and we often looked like we were playing together for the first time. Even our short passing game was lacklustre and they were played either behind or ahead of players. The only positive to note from yesterday's game was Carragher's massive presence at the back. Yup, that was the only positive. Avram Grant's arrival might have lifted the morale at the club, but you would think that a game which was supposed to commemorate the 50th year since Shankly signed on as manager would have provided just as much inspiration to our squad. I have to be blunt and say that our performance last night was an absolute disgrace given who our opponents were, and the magnitude of the occasion. So we're still guaranteed a top four finish are we? Early in the season I was chastised for criticising our performance, and was told that things would pick up. I stand by what I said. Blind faith isn't going to change our predicament. I am duty bound to stand faithful by Liverpool Football Club, and I am absolutely adamant that anyone wearing a red shirt should have to earn it. I've not seen too many who have earned that right of late.

Mascherano
Dirtiest player in the league? I'd say he is one of the most passionate players in the league. Passion sometimes leads to over enthusiasm which then leads to recklessness. He is hard, and he is uncompromising but he isn't by nature, a dirty player. Players who fit the billing of a "dirty" player do what they do with intent. Roy Keane's tackle against Haaland. Micheal Brown, Joey Barton, Dennis Wise, Michael Ball, Kevin Muscrat, these are names of "dirty" players. So Masch has been sent off before but how many times was it because of a malicious challenge? Please do some research before spouting rubbish. Once again you see posters devoid of the concept of "serial offender". People choose to ignore that fact that he often runs 30 - 40 yards from his own half to chase the ball and close down opponents. People neglect the fact that he scampers across to either flank to half opponents. You don't do this because you are dirty. You do this because you have heart and you have passion. You can't choose to focus on one aspect of a player, you have to consider the big picture.

Feigning injury? Any person with the gift of sight and common sense could see that he jarred his knee as Ben Haim went down. Then again common sense isn't exactly too common is it?

Mark Hughes
There was a thread early in the season asking which manager we all thought would be the first to get the sack. I went for Hughes, naming Mourinho as a likely replacement. I may have got the latter wrong but Hughes was never a big enough name or character to manage a side whose owners have deep pockets and whose concept of buying players, is inspired by Football Manager. They want big names, and Mark Hughes hasn't done enough in his career yet.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Dec 20 2009, 02:47 PM
Duke Red
post Dec 20 2009, 02:38 PM

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QUOTE(fk2222 @ Dec 20 2009, 02:35 PM)
king kenny won for liverpool how many league titles...anyone can clarify?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Dalglish



This post has been edited by Duke Red: Dec 20 2009, 02:47 PM
Duke Red
post Dec 20 2009, 08:17 PM

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QUOTE(fk2222 @ Dec 20 2009, 03:06 PM)
Guys we should be happy that Man Utd had lost against Fulham .

Great influence froM OUR KING DANNY...haha...murphy!


Added on December 20, 2009, 3:07 pmhttp://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/danny-murphy/
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Happy for Murphy, but I'd much rather focus on our team. While it's always a joy to hear that the mancs lost, it doesn't in anyway soften the blow from yesterday's inept performance. Their loss doesn't equate 3 points for us and it brings us no closer to catching City, Villa or Tottenham, all whom are competing with us for a top four finish and all who won last night.

Let's put things in perspective here. Some of you have been on my case for slating the team, citing financial distress as the main reason for our poor results. We are tied on points with Birmingham and a win for them tonight will see them leapfrog us. We are also closer to the relegation zone than we are to the top, points wise. While we may not be expected to match the quality of the top sides, we are surely better than the likes of Portsmouth and Birmingham. It's the piss poor performances against these sides that worry me. We have a better squad but we still get outplayed.

QUOTE(ADVedder @ Dec 20 2009, 07:19 PM)
tot mark hughes stays longer than rafa... i guess not..
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If you ask me, his resignation letter was already prepared the moment the millionnaire sheiks bought the club, he just didn't know it, or maybe he did. I predicted that he'd be gone in January, didn't think it would be so soon, especially just after a win but from his actions after the game, he already knew.
Duke Red
post Dec 21 2009, 10:02 AM

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QUOTE(visionary1993 @ Dec 20 2009, 10:40 PM)
Winston Churchill tongue.gif
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Another apt saying would be, "Never have the lives of so many been owed to so few" referring to the airmen that conquered the skies, amidst an enemy superior in numbers during the battle of Britain". Extremely fitting if you ask me seeing as millions of reds over the world devote themselves to our cause.

QUOTE(x13u5t3r @ Dec 21 2009, 04:10 AM)
to those of you who wants Rafa to leave:

give me one manager that can take the hot seat for a team with no budget, no support from the owners, limited squad, low quality youths, underperformed star players, injuries hampered squad..from all that resources, rebuild a team

his tactics, his approach, his stubbornness, thats for another session of discussion..for now just think of a manager who CAN and WANT to take the job ?
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Mate I can tell you that this argument is getting a little old. How much better off is Alex McLeish? Sure Carson Yeung has come in but how much has been invested in players. Even with our problems, we must surely be better off that some of the teams above us at the moment? It's like I said, it's worrying that we're closer to the bottom of the table than we are to the top. Care to comment on the inept performances we've seen of late? We may not have the best players in the league, but we surely should be doing better than we are with the ones we have.

Itdoesn't matter if it's Rafa in charge or some other manager. I've no sight of what's happening behind closed doors but my main concern is if anything's being done to address our current form? We mustered 1 shot against a team rock bottom of the league with the worst home record in the league and it's only one of many inept performances this season.


Added on December 21, 2009, 10:05 am
QUOTE(digilife @ Dec 21 2009, 08:48 AM)
SO OUR SLUMP NOW hav to be blamed firstly on the Owners, ie the Yanks cause they din splash more money to buy GOOD players???
I do agree that it's important to have the money to bring quality players in but seriously, do you want to be referred to as a team that bought the league? I'd much rather be remembered as a team that punched above our weight and won it because we fought for it and gave it all we got.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Dec 21 2009, 10:05 AM
Duke Red
post Dec 21 2009, 02:21 PM

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QUOTE(x13u5t3r @ Dec 21 2009, 02:00 PM)
forget comparisons with other teams,

the point in my post WAS NOT to list out excuses of why we are where we are now, eg: low budget, player's problems, owner's problems...no not excuses..
but my post was about our desperation and hot headed demand, to change the management during the streak of hard times, which i think is quite unreasonable..be it Rafa or anyone else, i dont see anyone who can do a magic and turn things around in our situations now

i am not defending Rafa but i urge you guys to think again when you want to say "boot Rafa"..coz the problems dont stop there, then what's next?
who's next? why?
we're in a check-mate situation, and i, logically think that sacking the manager during this time, is so disastrous to Liverpool, i could not imagine the fall.

do u still think changing the manager is a good idea?  icon_question.gif
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I personally disagree with changing managers before the end of the season because they new one doesn't have enough time to settle in. Having said that it's been shown that an injection of a fresh approach to the game can have a positive impact on the side. What has sparked Portsmouth's mini revival? There are other examples from seasons before but I don't want to stray. I've always advocated that a manager should be given a fair amount of time to attain success, and I am especially critical when a manager gets to dictate the amount of time given.

You and I may not visibly see any other manager capable of spurring a revival but then again, you and I and the other posters here aren't the best informed. Aside from plagiarising magazines, onlines sites and possibly even books, where do we get our references from? It isn't as though we chart the career progression of each manager hoping to un-earth the next great manager. Right now only the big names are echoing in our heads.

To rebutt your first point though, I don't see why we can't make comparisons with the other sides who are almost similar with us in terms of points. I mean aren't we saying we have a low budget etc in comparison with the big clubs? Everything is relative. You can't only make comparisons when it suits your argument.
Duke Red
post Dec 21 2009, 03:24 PM

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QUOTE(x13u5t3r @ Dec 21 2009, 03:04 PM)
"no comparisons" as my intention was merely to avoid any off the points discussion, such as our spending vs villa's..i wanted to talk only about changing boss at this time..but overall you view on management overhaul is understandable, im still waiting for more people to explain their brief plans when they say "sack Rafa"..then what ?

on the other hand, im still firm with my belief, one man destroyed us all, he is so legendary that only one man can do it all by himself..

and we know Rafa's stubbornness, no matter how stubborn he is, he will sooner or later give up and accept his mistake and make amends...
and the day he drop Lucas in his head is the day we'll win our 19th league..until that, good luck on staying off relegation zone
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Just for the sake of argument, I'm just wondering if someone like Kenny Dalglish is what we need if he's up for it of course. He's made it clear in the past that he can't take the pressure, or rather doesn't want to which is why he resigned but maybe things have changed? If one of the prevailing issues is indeed that the dressing room has been lost and the players lack motivation, what better way is there to pick everyone up by re-appointing the very manager that last won us the league? That being said, the re-appointment of Sammy Lee was for what I believe the very same reason, to be a motivator for the team but that apparently hasn't worked. Leads me to question whether or not, it is really about motivation or do the players just despite what they said in the press, dislike our Rafa? If you read comments from the likes of Gerrard and Carra, they don't go as far as to say they don't like him but they do give out hints by saying that he's not the sort of manager that'd give you a pat on the back. He is however a very meticulous man and they respect him but you don't have to like someone you respect.
Duke Red
post Dec 21 2009, 04:20 PM

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QUOTE(nando @ Dec 21 2009, 03:52 PM)
1.  Personally, i would think Dalglish is a sensible short term ship steadying appointment, if Rafa is shown the door out.  His knowledge of game + managerial experience + status with the players earn him that seat.  However, i'll be very surprised if he can actually build a team capable of challenging for title on long term basis.  No disrespect to that man but times have change.  His record at Celtic and Newcastle doesnt seem to suggest guaranteed success either.  But i think if Rafa were to leave in January and we're still in hunt for 4th, Dalglish's aura could be what Liverpool need for next couple of months.
Well I did some checking and his managerial record after Liverpool isn't as bad as some may think.

He got Blackburn promoted to the top flight for the first time since 1966 in his first season at the helm. In the subsequent seasons, they finished 4th and 2nd respectively before finishing as champions. He was then promoted to Director of Football the season after winning the league. He was also responsible in bringing players like Alan Shearer, David Batty, Chris Sutton and Tim Flowers into the side, players who would feature regularly in seasons to come.

At Newcastle, he took the club to a 2nd placed finish in his first season in charge. They finished 13th the following season however although they reached the final of the FA Cup and scored a famous 3-2 victory over Barcelona in the same season. He was then sacked after drawing their first two games of the following season.

In his only season in charge of Celtic he took them to the runners-up spot in the league, and the final of the Scottish League Cup. The following season he made way for Martin O'Neill.

If you look at it, he only really spent a lenghty amount of time at Blackburn, a team he got promoted in his first season in charge, finishing right at the summit in only their 3rd season in the top flight. Didn't stay for mroe than two season in either Newcastle or Celtic. If we're patient enough to give Rafa and Houllier 5 years a piece, who knows if he would have done more had be stayed on at Newcastle or Celtic?




Duke Red
post Dec 21 2009, 05:05 PM

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QUOTE(nando @ Dec 21 2009, 04:40 PM)
hmmm....I always have the tendency to link Dalglish's managerial success to certain players.  To me, i'll always associate his success at Liverpool to Barnes/Aldo/Beardo and Blackburn -Shearer/Sutton. I know football is an 11 men game but i think Dalglish has this ability to bring best out of players. 

okay, assuming hypothetically,  he were to manage our team, perhaps....just perhaps..he can do the following...

-breathe inspiration to players we all know can do the job....Torres, Gerrard, Carra, Reina, Aqui and perhaps add to this list Agger..(5-6 world class players performing)

-increase potential of `fringe/inconsistent' players....Yossi, Babel, Kuyt by playing them in right position or some good old man management  (upgrade of 4-5 fringe players to world class)

-perhaps old Kenny still has the eye for player and get 1-2 players with impact Garry Macca (for all you liverpool fans, check out ESPN soccernet.  A beautiful article on MacAllister was posted recently).  After all, Dalglish spotted Aldo, Houghton and several other low profile but vital players (2-3 bargain and yet successful buys)

-If not mistaken, Dalglish also had something to do with McManaman and Redknapp's early days...so perhaps the eye to spot a new talent is still there eh? (2-3 young talent)

IF all the above  works together, we may have a strong 13-18 players capable of playing some good football?

sigh..now you got me thinking....
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I was just going through some of "what better option do we have than Rafa" posts and chose to give it a little more thought. The points that always arise for not being able to compete are lack of funds, and underperforming players. While we cannot do anything about the former, we can do something about the latter. The reason I brought up Dalglish was because he recently got back into the game, and he was the last manager to win us the league. He's also a big favourite with every Liverpool fan and I imagine he has some status amongst the foreign players as well. In short, he has presence and this will give him an edge is trying to command the dressing room. It may be only for a quick fix, but it's obvious we are crying out for an injection of inspiration.

His managerial success at Liverpool will definitely be undermined because of the players he had at his disposal. You also mentioned however that he spotted some "lesser" known talent like Aldo, Houghton, Venison and one, Peter Beardsley. In fact, every manager after Shankly will forever be in his shadow, Paisley and Fagan included.

It is arguable however if his success at Blackburn was down to him inheriting quality players because like I posted before, the players he signed proved to be mainstays for the team for years.

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