On the issue of Ryan Babel being right-footed but playing on the left, so what? Joe Cole is right-footed and constantly plays from the left as did Thierry Henry earlier in his career. Philip Lahm sometimes plays on the left despite being right-footed. Jamie Carragher filled in at left-back for an entire season despite being right-footed. Football these days isn't as clear cut. You don't need a left-footed player on the left, whipping crosses in for tall centreforwards to attack. These days the ball is played on the ground more. Often you see wingers swap wings to add another dimension to the attack allowing them to cut in more especially if you aren't strong in the air.

You are right assuming that the only purpose wingers serve is to play crosses. How did Ronaldo manage so many goals for Man Utd then?



Yes this is a fact. I see no harm in playing a right-footed player on the left because these days, fullbacks get forward a whole lot more to join in the attack. When a team is pushing forward, fullbacks act almost as wingers. With wingers cutting in, it gives fullbacks more players to aim for when playing a cross. With defensive midfielders playing a prominant role in today's game, often, forwards are outnumbered in the box, hence the importance of having your wingers in the box as well. One winger I remember who timed his runs into the box very well was a certain Freddie Ljungberg.



What do you mean by "well bonded"? Why do they have to be "well bonded" to swap wings?

To be honest, I can empathise with Babel and I don't blame him for being frustrated. Some years back, Patrik Berger was in a similar situation under Houllier and flourished when he was given the opportunity. Babel hasn't had a good run of games under his belt yet. It's hard to make an impact when you are only given 10 minutes to chase a game and the opposition has decided not to conceed.

What I do realise is that Ronaldo improved as a player because he learned to use his teammates more. When he first came over, all he had was his crossovers which eventually got him nowhere. Well it did get him a number of bruises but the point is, he was too individualistic. You're missing my point however, in that wingers aren't used just for crossing which seems to be your point of contention since you insist that a left-winger has to be left footed and a right-winger, right footed. I brought up Ronaldo to illustrate an example if a right-footed player often played on the left, who scores goals denoting that it isn't necessarily a bad thing having a right-footed player on the left and vice versa.



Hmmm that's an assumption at best. They haven't always played together.

I think this is stating the obvious. Teams in general function better if the players have a good understanding.

Dont' recognise most of the names in that list but when Borough were still in the Premiership last season, I thought pretty highly of Adam Johnson. He was often deployed on the right side of midfield despite being left footed to accomodate Stuart Downing in the position he most favours. Reckon he'd be a decent acquisition at 6 mil. Whats more he's only 22 and I'm betting he'll make the England side within the next 2 years.

I see nothing wrong in bringing up the Alonso saga especially since it was so recent. You can't disregard it since it has obviously contributed to our predicament this season. As much as you want to celebrate a person's positive contributions, you cannot ignore the negative ones. Only by weighing pros and cons can you come to a fair conclusion. Why would fans of two decades or more want to criticise or complain? Because we're older and therefore grumpier? How many here have experience the ups and downs really? How many have seen our team turn from champions into chumps over a span of a few years? Please don't compare our slump in the 90's with what's going on now. We won the Champions League in 2005, the FA Cup in 2006 and have only come close to winning the league once. Hardly considered a period of dominance unlike in the 80's. Am I suggesting that we're better because we've been fans longer? Definitely not. I know fans from the early 80's that don't support the club anymore. What I'm suggesting is that we have different viewpoints hence the importance of respecting, and not disputing the opinions of others. I personally talk about the past so much because my memory spans back further than some.

Now back to the point. As I said before, if we can celebrate Rafa's achievement in the 2005, we can sure as hell talk about the lows. One is not mutually exclusive of the other. Some fans hold a little grudge against him for the way he handled the Alonso saga. It's the same with some of us who still resent Souness for giving an interview to the rag, McManaman for leaving on a Bossman or Owen for leaving us high and dry. We still talk about those incidences and in reality, we could blame Owen's decision to leave instead of committing to the club for our lack of firepower up front. The only reason you see Alonso's name mentioned now is because we gain more fans as the years go by, and posters here become younger. The older ones leave for various reasons, I've seen it over the span of 3 seasons. Discussions become less insightful, and forums become chat threads, driving posters to foreign sites like RAWK where we can learn more.

In conclusion I think it's fine for someone to bring up whatever topic they want and the best way to tell someone it's done and dusted, is to prove him/her wrong by debating, not dismissing. Honestly, even if it is a repeat, few can argue it is at least more insightful that random one liners like, "Torres is going to leave!", answered by a ,"he won't lah!" = chat forum.

Captain Marvel he may be. The heart of LFC he may be but there is no disputing that Gerrard's leaving is a very real possibility especially if we finish the season some distance behind the leaders, and fail to qualify for the Champions League. Jose Mourinho is a firm admirer of our captain and has twice come close to courting his services. Some may say that it was indeed a change of heart at the last minute, that he decided to turn Chelsea down pledging his loyalty to his Scouse roots after coming to terms with the situation. Another faction on the other hand might say that his decision to stay came after receiving several threats on his life and his family's. Bottom line, we choose to believe the former, I know I do. The reality however could be far from what I believe it to be. Here is a man at the prime of his career with a big appetite for success. Is it really inconceivable to believe that he will accept an offer abroad even if it means leaving the club he loves? At what point do you say, "I love my club, but I need to leave to fulfill my personal ambitions"? Torres has done that, no? Will Gerrard's departure go down as smoothly with us, and Torres' did with his legion of fans at Atletico?

If he does leave, will it for the better or for the worse? Let's face it, neither Gerrard nor Carragher are getting any younger. At this age, they should already have a number of silverware in their trophy cabinet. They are not player for the future, if indeed Rafa is looking that far ahead. If we finish this season out of the top four, without any silverware, his departure could spell the end of an era, but also the beginning of a new one. Is that honestly a bad thing? Aside from a European Cup, 1 UEFA Cup, 2 FA Cups, 2 League Cups, 1 European Supercup, 1 Charity Shield, what have we really achieved in the last 2 decades? May count may be slightly off but you get my drift. It's an era few will remember anyway so starting fresh might not be such a bad thing. We have a new generation of players that have the potential to form the spine of LFC in Pepe Reina, Daniel Agger and Fernando Torres. Gerrard won't be allowed to leave for cheap and if the funds we get from his sale can be used to plug a few holes, it could benefit the team as a whole. It could also mean that Rafa will be forced not let the club's fortunes rest on the weary shoulders of only two players. It could force him to try to get the best out of each player and not have to play them even if they aren't fully fit. When Rafa's Valencia came to Anfield and took us apart, it was said that we lost to a superior team. Can we say we beat teams in the same manner as they did us? When we win it's often because of a moment of brilliance from an individual player. Perhaps with Gerrard out of the picture, the team will not be 'tempted' to rely on him so often, and will function better as a unit, not necessarily because they want to, but because they have to.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jan 12 2010, 12:03 PM

Torres has come out to reiterate the importance of winning the FA Cup this season, giving us our first bit of silverware in four years. If we lose (god forbid), the ripple effect could shatter our already frail confidence and motivation levels. Let's face it, we've won our last few games but not in convincing fashion. They could have gone either way but that's football, sometimes you do need a bit of luck to get you going.

If this were a league encounter, I'd back the lads to win it but I don't think it will be as clearcut this time round. The lucrative financial rewards for progressing to the latter stages of the competition, and given that this is essentially a one-off game, might just be more of a motivation for Reading that it will be for us. We have our backs to the wall and I'm not sure if that will prove to be too much pressure for the lads. We fielded a strong line-up in the first league and many expected us to cruise through but on the contrary, we struggled to hold on for a draw. I don't think the Anfield factor will affect Reading much and given that they almost beat us, I'm sure they'll come in full on confidence. Nothing compares to the feeling of being the underdog and turning the favourites over in their own backyard and judging from their approach to the game in our first encounter, I really doubt they'd be overawed by the occasion.

Unlike some folk, I actually think ahead. I'm not some wimpy ***** that hides because I fear pain. If I were, you think I'd still be a fan after 20 years? Some questions can be answered without asking by exercising simple powers of observation. I would say that was obvious but I fail to pick out a sentence in my previous post indicating that I'd surrender my allegiance, meaning it isn't obvious to some, apparently...

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jan 13 2010, 05:28 PM

Can't say I'm all that surprised by the result. It's like I posted yesterday, Reading had more to gain than they had to lose whilst it was the other way around for us. After struggling to hold on for a draw in the 1st leg, it was up to the lads to respond in a positive fashion which they failed to do. Reading may not be in the best of forms but this was essentially a one-off tie, not a league game. Rafa was said to be the master of cup competitions but that's all in the past isn't it? Like I mentioned yesterday, my greatest fear now is that our already frail confidence levels have finally been shattered. People may talk about a Liverpool backlash against Stoke but I fear the opposite may be true.

We can make excuses and say we lost because Torres and Gerrard were injured but let's face it, even without the two we should have won this tie. Like I mentioned some time back, I think Rafa is getting too much sympathy, especially when we have bigger culprits to throw sticks and stones at in the yanks. Let's put things in perspective here. We may be tight but we surely have the quality to turn over sides like Portsmouth, Fulham and Reading. Back then some posters mentioned that there was no cause for concern because it was just one game, the season had just started and my reactions were knee jerk even though I gave reasons why there was cause to be concerned. Maybe we'll still turn our season around, finish in the top four and win the Europa Cup. However I feel that unlike back then, more people are beginning to think that's highly unlikely. We can blame the lads for not being motivated but if this were true one surely has to ask, what measures even if drastic need to be taken to address this?

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Added on January 14, 2010, 10:49 amBirmingham will finish above us? Removing any emotion, I don't think it's completely inconceivable is it?


This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jan 14 2010, 10:49 AM

Players have been coming and going. Take a step back and look at the bigger picture. We may not have the best players in the league (an excuse we give ourselves because when asked, few here would dispute that Torres, Gerrard and Reina are the best players in their respective positions) but we surely have enough quality to ensure we're better placed in the league. Is it merely an issue with the players? The team as a whole have looked like strangers throughout the season. Perhaps it's something bigger? Tactics, strategy, lineup? Yes I understand that Rafa is untouchable to some in this thread but like I said, remove all sentiment and emotion before coming to a well thought out conclusion. Yes he doesn't have as much money to spend but our results are reflective of a club with no money to spend, and average players to field.

If I were to ask you before the season started if you thought we'd be fighting for 4th, I reckon you would have laughed in my face since we almost won it the season before. Don't forget that a lot of us expected to fight for the title and not 4th. We cannot lower our targets as the season progresses.

Knee jerk reaction? We're well into the season, out of the title race, our of the Champions League, our of both domestic cup competitions. Some people have actually voiced concerns earlier on and not just now. Anything can happen indeed. It's like I said earlier though. When we played crap football at the beginning of the season and I cited concerns, my posts were met by such feedback, "relax it's still early days", "it's only a quarter of the season gone", "we're just going through a purple patch". When is it time for us to realise that it isn't all peaches and cream at the moment? When the season is over it will be too late. Finishing out of the top four will be a huge hit to us financially and this is a very real scenario.

Sacking Rafa might not be the answer, but something needs to be done quick. We cannot afford to pretend that everything's going to be alright.

On the issue of youth, we should see some results in a few years time with King Kenny getting involved. Honestly though, if motivation is indeed the problem, perhaps Rafa should involve King Kenny more in the first team. He has the respect of the players and the admiration of all the fans, something Rafa is slowly losing. Anyone remember the Spanish documentary hosted by former Red Michael Robinson? It was focused on Fernando Torres and the setting was at a restaurant where Arbeloa, Torres and Reina met with former greats, Kenny Dalglish, Greame Souness and Sammy Lee. They exchanged stories and compared Liverpool past and present. It may sound silly but if motivation is indeed an issue, perhaps similar sessions should be held more frequently if they aren't already. The lads need to be reminded who they aer playing for and remind our opponents who they are playing against. Each time they put on the Red shirt they should know that they aren't just playing for us, they are playing for the 96 who watch down on us from above. It was a real downer for me that we played like crap against Blackburn during the anniversary of Hillsborough.

It's especially scary when you think the only reason we aren't further behind in the league race is because the mancs aren't in the best of forms and neither are Chelsea who have been guilty of drawing games as well. Yes the league has gotten more competitive but we can at least be expected to play decent football, if not get decent results.

That is one scenario but you also have situations where the injection of a new manager motivates the team. Look at City after Mancini came in. Harry Redknapp at Pompey last season? Whatever happens, missing out of a top 4 finish would be nothing short of a disaster. I shudder at the thought of a financial meltdown.

... and yet you have no choice but to keep hearing us say it over and over again, unless you can do something about it. I need to correct you here. It isn't history, it's pure fact.

I didn't say I agree with bringing a new manager in. I've reiterated this is previous posts. I'm just opening it up for discussion and weighing it's merits. I commend you for not being one of those who instinctively goes for my jugular the moment I bring up the topic not understanding that it isn't wrong to discuss such a scenario. Blasphemy!

Back to the topic. It is a risk indeed and it boils down to the question of who replaces Rafa if or when he goes (if we finish out of the top four, it's a certainty he'll go). Sadly, it will mean that we have to splurge in a Hiddink, Mourinho or Capello class manager and the yanks aren't exactly generous are they? It is a risk indeed but a calculated one if you ask me. It's widely believed that Rafa has lost the dressing room and when you do, it's almost impossible to win it back isn't it? In all the times I remember this happening, the manager had to make way for a successor, and if the new manager has an undisputable reputation, he'll automatically get the respect of the players. There will be a period of apprehension. It's like getting a new boss at work. If he starts getting positive results, all will be good, and vice versa. It is a risk indeed but if you look at our current predicament, one cannot help but wonder if it is a risk worth taking.

It was always going to be difficult taking over the helm at Chelsea or Man City because they aren't exactly losing too many games, unlike us. It will be easier for a new manager to make an impact here.

Getting relegated is an unlikely scenario but with our current debt, missing out on the Champions League could be devastating enough what with the amount of interest we need to pay. This could very well result in us having to sell players like Torres and Gerrard, something I'd hate to see happen.

Managing a club is a different proposition especially when you constantly have to balance the checkbooks, more so in our case. Else we could cite him taking South Korea to the World Cup Semi-Finals as a better example. He also led Australia to the World Cup. I can't help but wonder however if he can do the same at club level. The only club he's really had any notable success with was PSV Eindhoven. Aside from winning 3 league titles with them, he also took them to the semi-finals of the 2004/2005 Champions League where in my opinion, they were really unlucky to lose out to AC Milan despite looking like the hungrier side.

I really do hope Rafa turns our season around but it looks increasingly unlikely. Sadly for him stories of him watching the game together with our fans at a pub, and the Rafatolla being paraded through the streets are fast fading and non-recent.

Heard on Football Forecast that Rafa has just been given the dreaded vote of confidence. I'm not sure what's going to happen in the next few weeks but we simply have to pick it up and finish in the top four. Earlier this decade my hope of ursurping the mancs as Premier League champions were resurfaced by Houllier. The flame burned even brighter under Rafa and you know what they say? The higher you go, the harder you fall. Pretty much describes any hopes I had of our Premier League fortunes turning the corner. Whatever happens in the next 2 or 3 seasons though, I only know that we have to keep the faith. As they say, "our faith is the weapon most feared by our enemies". I don't blame some rival posters for not understanding why we can continue to support the club. It's why when I read posts like, "Liverpool sucks lah. Wait 20 years also cannot win the title, not like Man Utd. We will continue to pawn you. Don't know why you all still want to support the club", I can't help but laugh. That's right mate, you have no idea do you, and you never will because you'll always be supporting a winning club, whoever they may be.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jan 15 2010, 09:06 PM

I'm guessing you replied tongue-in-cheek because I for one think it's a little harsh, the bits I could understand anyway. Very surface value observations.

How are Rafa and Mourinho similar? To start with both adopt different formations. Whilst our team struggles to score because Rafa is overcautious, Mourinho's didn't get too many goals because they adopted a 4-3-3 formation making them easy to read because they were so narrow in attack. Mourinho is also a much better man manager. I hate to admit that I have a begrudging respect for him. I'm given him stick all this time but one cannot deny that he has the backing of all his players. He is a teammate you'd love to have but an opponent you'd love to hate.

King Kenny will be the obvious quick fix being the last manager to have won us the league. Some may argue that he inherited a winning team but he did sign the likes of Peter Beardsley, John Aldridge, Steve McMahon, Alan Hansen, Ronnie Whelan, Ray Houghton, Mark Lawrenson, Steve Nicol and my personal favourite, John Barnes, all of whom were part of a very successful first team. We played the free flowing football that the mancs do now and Anfield was a fortress. He may not have had much managerial experience of late but all we need right now is a shot of confidence in the arm. If we were ecstatic when Rafa re-signed Robbie Fowler, I cannot imagine the reaction amongst the players and fans if King Kenny returned to the helm, if only for the rest of the season.