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 HDTV FAQ, For all Console users

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xxboxx
post Oct 13 2005, 04:54 PM

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hey, hey, HDTV faq is certainly better to stay at Console Couch thumbup.gif

some info on the various type of display and methods: LINK

QUOTE
The New Aspect Ratio
Current televisions are based upon the aspect ratio of 4:3. This means a TV with an aspect ratio of 4:3 will be 3 feet high and 4 feet wide. With HDTV the aspect ratio is 16:9, making the image much wider than a normal TV. The new screen size is 33% wider to be exact.
user posted image
Comparison of the aspect ratio of a High Definition TV compared to a NTSC TV of the same height...

The increased width is a huge improvement because it allows you to view TV and movies as if you were watching them in a theater. When watching TV on a 16:9 screen you use your peripheral vision, which truly makes you feel like you are a part of the program.

Norm Samat, the directory of ABC's Monday Night Football HDTV feed put it perfectly:
You almost get into a trance looking at HDTV pictures because you really see more. The wider 16:9 aspect ratio makes a big difference in covering football. With the old 4:3 aspect ratio screens it was often tricky to cover the defense. In HDTV they are already in your picture, so you can see more of the play develop.

Resolution
The usual resolution a normal NTSC TV can display is 525 scan lines with 480 actually being visible. The usual TV can display a resolution of about 210,000 pixels per image. High Definition TV's can go all the way up to 1920 (horizontal) x 1080 (vertical) pixels, with a total of 2,073,600 pixels per image. That is ten times the resolution and picture quality. Ten times!
user posted image
Number of pixels on a HDTV monitor at 1920 x 1080 versus NTSC at 720 x 486...

In fact, when you squeeze all these pixels down to the same sized TV you get impeccable quality. Instead of stretching these pixels out, they are crammed together so tight that resolutions get as high and as sharp as they do.
more info at: LINK

HDTV Screenshot Database : some screenshot in HD

QUOTE
Different Views of SDTV and HDTV-Resolution

Digital TV - SDTV:

    * 480i - 704x480 interlaced
    * 480p - 704x480 progressive
     

Digital-HDTV:

    * 720p - 1280x720  progressive
    * 1080i - 1920x1080 interlaced
    * 1080p - 1920x1080 progressive

More Accurate - Listing the resolution and frame rate:

    * 480i - The picture is 704x480 - (60/2 interlaced frames per second)
      = 30 complete frames per second.
     
    * 480p - The picture is 704x480 - 60 complete frames per second.
     
    * 720p - The picture is 1280x720 - 60 complete frames per second.
     
    * 1080i - The picture is 1920x1080 - (60/2 interlaced frames per second)
      = 30 complete frames per second.
     
    * 1080p - The picture is 1920x1080 - 60 complete frames per second.

Comparison of Digital TV and HDTV
user posted image
Note: Although "non-CRT" television sets use different technologies in creating the screen images, and there are other factors involved with how they display the picture, in the end, HDTV-Resolutions are still (720p) and (1080i) - or higher.

Link for HDTV-Resolution:LINK very good thumbup.gif
xxboxx
post Oct 27 2005, 05:26 PM

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^ if i'm not mistaken, both sony and microsoft promise that their next gen consoles at least will support 720p and 1080i. but still, kind of risky.
xxboxx
post Nov 26 2005, 07:36 PM

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QUOTE(lightning69 @ Nov 22 2005, 10:17 AM)
Just got back from Guanzhou, china and bought myself a true HDTV.  Its a 32" 16:9 CRT HDTV thats supports 1080P, 1080i, 720P. 

I bought it for RM2250 and cost about RM350 to ship it back to malaysia.

user posted image
*
wow!!! drool.gif
it's 16:9? not widescreen? like that the screen is super long! drool.gif
even support 1080p? thumbup.gif quite cheap for such big tv, but what brand is it?
xxboxx
post Nov 28 2005, 07:27 AM

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^is it a wide screen or normal 4:3?
with 720p support also?
xxboxx
post Nov 28 2005, 08:47 AM

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you say have to look for it for months, is this model phased-out already? damn, wish hdtv price will come down quicker. sad.gif
xxboxx
post Nov 28 2005, 04:56 PM

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ya, i too hope can afford to get a widescreen hdtv. running 720p on 4:3 screen will mean a black border on top and bottom. so sad that no demand for widescreen in malaysia, i see j-drama even their pc monitor is wide screen. drool.gif
xxboxx
post Nov 29 2005, 05:26 PM

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QUOTE(lightning69 @ Nov 29 2005, 09:14 AM)
There is demand but there is no supply.  All Malaysian TV comes in 4:3 ratio except the newer DLP and LCD TV.  Those are too expensive anyway.  That is why i bought the Skyworth 16:9 crt HDTV because its widescreen.
*
is there really any demand? only the enthusiast in AV would know about wide screen. the average joe only know that tv is 4:3. btw, your widescreen tv, it's china brand izzit? how the quality compare to like sony or philips?
xxboxx
post Nov 30 2005, 08:23 PM

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"At a distance of 10 feet from the screen, the eye can't detect pixels smaller than 1 millimeter; so if you look at a 37-inch set from that far away, you won't notice significant difference between a high-definition image and a standard-def image."
i don't think anybody seat so far away from their tv. sweat.gif

"Today, vendors rate the life expectancy of high-quality plasma TVs at 60,000 hours. That works out to more than 20 years of use if you watch 8 hours a day, 365 days a year; it's also about the same lifetime claimed for LCDs and CRTs (the latter are similarly prone to burn-in because, like plasma TVs, they depend on phosphor-based displays)."
is this true or not? like this no problem using it to play games coz it has life expectancy of crt.

btw Lord_Ashe, today i see some philips tv with the HDTV (or only HD, not sure) Monitor printed on the front. is this the same as yours or EDTV in disguise?
xxboxx
post Dec 1 2005, 07:49 AM

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both also looks about the same, i couldn't tell tongue.gif
but the one i see don't have rgb input, guess this is the model without Pixel Plus 2.
btw, the second link, is this the same model as yours? i read th pdf file, it only support 480p and 1080i. from philips website there's only 3 model with HD capabilities, and all 3 only have 480p and 1080i.
user posted image
user posted image

the tv, does the display look almost similiar with pc monitor? i mean without the interlace line like normal tv?
xxboxx
post Dec 1 2005, 12:15 PM

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QUOTE(Lord_Ashe @ Dec 1 2005, 09:32 AM)
Hehe, both look the same because of the tendency for retailers to hook up the dinkiest (and I mean stupidest) kind of composite connection to "show off" the TV, with brightness and other settings tuned up way high...

You're right - I forgot to mention that strangely enough only my model (which has been discontinued, I guess) has support for 480p, 720p and 1080i. I couldn't find a similar PDF but it's stated on the manual. Hmm... I need to do a bit more testing, I think.

As for no interlace line - I played a bit of King Kong yesterday, and that looked pretty amazing for a  CRT. Soul Calibur 2(ori) also looked extra crisp but that was at 480p. I'll need to see if I can push it higher...
*
one of the display set is a 42" plasma, and they hook up with only the composite cable! mad.gif while the demo of 2F2F still look nice, i would prefer to see it in 720p.

try with xbox games that support 720p such as hulk or soul calibur 2.

QUOTE(lightning69 @ Dec 1 2005, 12:08 PM)
Yes, its china brand Skyworth.  Quality wise to me are more or less the same.
*
next time if you want to go china, do a bulk sales for the tv. happy.gif
xxboxx
post Dec 2 2005, 02:27 PM

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Lord_Ashe, are you sure your tv support 720p? i was browsing xbox-scene when i stumble on this article
QUOTE
Basically CRT HDTV displays are still the highest quality display over any other format (DLP, Plasma, LCD, LCoS). However in the xbox 360's case, all games natively support 720p but unfortunately CRT televisions do not support 720p native. Instead they upscale everything to 1080i in which loss can occur. So if you want to display games in their native resolution, going to Plasma or LCD is the way to go.

However from a technical standpoint, there is one CRT that kind of words around the technical jargon and can do 720p native - the JVC 34" widescreen HDTV. Instead of converting all signals to 1080i, it actually converts signals to 1500i which is a few extra lines on top of 1440i resolution. 1440i is the same as 720p. Since the picture is interlaced (have the picture is shown every other time) across 1440 lines (720 on the first, 720 on the second), it can actually show 720p received signals accurately without compromising quality because the resolution is exactly divisible by 2.

So, to sum it up, unless you have a 1500i CRT TV (JVC is the only one that currently does this), then you will not be getting the most out of your picture, no matter the cable

xxboxx
post Dec 2 2005, 05:36 PM

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according to the article:
QUOTE
CRT televisions do not support 720p native. Instead they upscale everything to 1080i in which loss can occur. So if you want to display games in their native resolution, going to Plasma or LCD is the way to go.

meaning it can display 720p, but at some loss of line, unless the tv support 1440i/1500i (which is double of 720p line). 1080 if divided 2 will only be 540 lines.

This post has been edited by xxboxx: Dec 2 2005, 05:37 PM
xxboxx
post Dec 4 2005, 10:30 PM

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QUOTE(lightning69 @ Dec 3 2005, 05:54 PM)
there is no such thing as 1440i/1500i.  HD standard is 720P/1080i/1080P.  And newer crt these days can fully support these.  The only disadvantages of crt hdtv is that part of the tube might be covered the frame so one might not see the whole picture.  A minor disadvantages considering the price you pay.
*
so you mean any crt hdtv can support 720p natively? without the need to upscale it? but i wonder why most crt hdtv only have 480p and 1080i like the philips tv that i see. from the xbox-scene one forumer post:
QUOTE
(32KHz for 1080i and 37KHz for 720p if I remember correctly.) There are very few CRT's that natively support 720p for this very reason. The manufacturing costs are much higher. 99% of all sets that claim to support 720p, actually scale the signal to 1080i.
i can't say his words are true enough or not since i didn't really look much about HDTV matter. but if i remember correctly there was an article before that say most crt upscale 720p. but yours with the V12 chip, i believe support 720p natively. another hdtv that support 720p natively: Monivision

QUOTE(Matrix @ Dec 4 2005, 06:28 PM)
hI,

Can tell which model is it?

I'm currently looking for a new HDTV...since my old 29" SDTV KO liao, it gives me a good reason to!!

But i've a hard time deciding. My current choice is the SONY DB29M61 which is currently the ONLY CRT HDTV which supports 1080i/720p/480p/576p etc...and i think it's the cheapest HDTV in the market!!(Only RM1900).

However, i'm also looking at  the Philips Pixel Plus 2(the old Pixel Plus models all sold out i guess) and saw some on display in SENQ. Can't remember the price though.

Pixel Plus really makes a difference, i think it's the best looking of all the technology mumbo-jumbo of other tv's out there. However, as highlighted by other poster, the Philips model only plays 480p and 1080i.

So i'm wondering, can i play 720p XBOX games with Philips TV? Does it do upscaling (or whatever conversion) to 1080i??

Really headache...cannot decide!!
*

if you want to buy hdtv, i suggest looks for widescreen tv. for the support of 720p, maybe try asking the staff there to give demo of the tv running in 720p. but since the price was quite low i think most probably is upscaling. the monivison tv that i mention already cost USD1999. shocking.gif

xxboxx
post Dec 9 2005, 03:17 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Dec 6 2005, 09:26 AM)
Lord Ashe: Can u tell me whether your Philips TV does upscaling/conversion of 720p to 1080i??

Example, when u play SC2 (XBOX) on your TV, how do you know which resolution it's running? Is it set from the game or TV?? Does it runs SC2 in 720p mode by upscaling to 1080i??

I think need to check out the Pixel Plus 2 prices soon.
*
all of SC title only support 480p, no 720p.

Lord_Ashe, "hulk: ultimate destruction" support 720p and 1080i. try disable 1080i from xbox dashboard and see if the game display 720p.
xxboxx
post Dec 10 2005, 04:41 PM

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QUOTE(Lord_Ashe @ Dec 9 2005, 05:13 PM)
Hmm. Okay, thanks for the input. I'll do that the moment I can! Strangely the back of my original SC2 says 720p support.

Hmmmm.
*
i wouldn't know about the back cover, coz i didn't have the ori. my info came from www.hdtvarcade.com/xboxlist.htm
you can also disable 480p and 1080i and see if SC2 would run on progressive mode.
xxboxx
post Dec 11 2005, 07:48 AM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Dec 10 2005, 11:11 PM)
I think the info there is wrong. It is known that SC2 supports 720p and has been mentioned in various reviews in online sites.

btw, how do u disable the 480p/1080i mode? From software or tv??

Updated:
Check http://www.hdtvarcade.com/xboxlist.htm properly again.

SC2 XBOX support 720p ler..  thumbup.gif
*
doh.gif doh.gif doh.gif
now i realize SC2 as in soul calibur 2
all this while i thought it was splinter cell 2 blush.gif

to disable progressive mode is from MS dashboard, but the option only visible if you have the component cable.
xxboxx
post Dec 14 2005, 08:31 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Dec 14 2005, 09:11 AM)
blink.gif  Feel sorry for you man...kena con by china conman......seriously it's better to buy a Philip Pixel Plus or even SONY HDTV locally for that price....if problem occurs (touch wood)...who can fix and where to find spare parts?? A bit risky...
*

2k for a 720p/1080i tv is still way cheap in malaysia. heck, almost all crt in malaysia didn't support 720p, or by cheating it with upscale to 1080i. plus only 2k for widescreen!!! drool.gif

QUOTE(agingamer @ Dec 14 2005, 10:48 AM)
I am also perplexed why I am seeing poor setups at most showrooms.
Some showed Astro ESPN that looked so bad that its a turn off.  shakehead.gif

Is cost (cabling, hidef players, etc.) the reason why they have such poor setups?
*

no, it's just that most staff didn't have decent knowledge in AV.


QUOTE(Lord_Ashe @ Dec 14 2005, 11:25 AM)
IMHO that shouldn't be a reason, since these showrooms also stock the necessary cables/players. For example, since most LCD/plasma displays these days are HDTV ready - all they need is an HDTV source. I suspect however that the showrooms lack HDTV source devices, unlike us gamers who have our consoles that can at least output ONE flavour of progressive scan. True, these showrooms also have DVD players that support progressive, but I'm seeing that they're just plain lazy or ignorant to hook up their displays properly. A simple example would be Astro. Even on my entry level Pixel Plus 2 set, Astro on a cheap S-video can look pretty good (depending on the source, some shows are better than others) and I've seen a 43" TV in a showroom hooked up to an ESPN feed that looked like it came over regular terrestrial signals! So yeah, while HDTV settop boxes may be expensive, hooking up their high end TVs to progressive scan DVD players with component cables is not!

At the end of the day, the bottom line is to flood the potential buyer with so many specs and features that they end up buying the most expensive TV, not to help them make a good buying decision. Sad, innit?
*

totally true! at jusco over here they got progressive scan dvd player playing HD demo disc outputting it to a 34" plasma widescreen, and they choose to connect using those yellow composite cable!! doh.gif shakehead.gif

EDIT: some more nice info from xbox-scene.com
QUOTE
They UPconvert from 720p to 1080i. No CRT display on sale right now has 720p native. They just don't do it. It will ACCEPT a 720p signal, but then it just converts it to 1080i. Even the Sony XBRs, which some say are the best of the direct view CRTs, convert 720p to 1080i.

Consumer television, large format CRTs just can't do a 720p signal. They don't have enough vertical scanning frequency to do it. Thats why. The big Sony XBRs have the display size and resolution available with their screens. But, they've yet to make one with a high enough scanning frequency to actually resolve 720p. They will do 480p, but all other HD signals sent to one will be converted to 1080i.

You have to look at it in a scanning frequency view. The frequency of a CRT is measured as horizontal lines per second. After seeing what it takes, you'll understand......

480i - 480 lines x 30 frames = 14.4kHz
480p - 480 lines x 60 frames = 28.8kHz
1080i - 1080 lines x 30 frames = 32.4kHz
720p - 720 lines x 60 frames = 43.2kHz
1080p - 1080 lines x 60 frames = 64.8kHz

Thats why large format CRT PC monitors cost so much back in the day. To get them to be able to show such high resolutions, they had to have very high frequency electron guns....

1600x1200 @ 85Hz = 102kHz
1920x1440 @ 85Hz = 122kHz

You can see there, the high frequency required for desktop CRT displays. Even now, the 24" Sony FW900, which most people say is the best of the consumer CRTs, and is now almost 4 years old, still costs about $1000 new these days. Its just very expensive to get CRTs to display that much picture. With LCDs, its easy. You just build a panel with that many pixels, and your done. But, its not that easy with CRT.


This post has been edited by xxboxx: Dec 15 2005, 08:06 AM
xxboxx
post Dec 15 2005, 07:25 PM

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QUOTE(agingamer @ Dec 15 2005, 04:34 PM)
All,
May I ask, do you know of other forums for discussing AV stuffs (Malaysia-
related)? Sometimes I have questions that are not console-gaming related
that I wish to discuss/consult.

Eg. I bought a wireless AV sender/receiver yesterday but the IR extender
wouldn't work with astro's remote control.

Thanks
*
i only know this thread for AV discussion in malaysia. maybe you can try CARI forum, but i never go there so dunno got or not.

or you could just go to any AV shop and discuss with their knowledgeable staff. (this is just a joke)
xxboxx
post Dec 19 2005, 06:54 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Dec 18 2005, 01:48 PM)
Also, even with progressive DVD player, currently the DVD media are not really encoded properly. I read some tech stuff which i can't really understand, but it basically means the quality even with progressive scan TV and DVD player, it's not really 100% progressive due to current DVD media are encoded, but still much much better than crappy interlace.
*
it was something about how the dvd was encoded, either 3-2 or 4-2 pulldown, or something like that. and then the dvd also sometime mis-flagged for which pulldown should be use. if you play a mis-flagged dvd with progressive scan tv, you would notice the jaggie become worse.

QUOTE(silkworm @ Dec 18 2005, 03:21 PM)
100 or 120Hz TVs actually take each interlaced field and then doubles the lines to make a full frame. It also shows the rebuilt "frame" twice, that's how you get 100/120Hz from a 25/30fps PAL or NTSC source. The final image is actually "progressive" but because it's taken from an interlaced input so you'll get nasty de-interlacing artifacts.
*
the name progressive really will mislead people that it will display better picture. while the tv really was displaying it in progressive, what the user actually getting is nothing more than "line doubler"
xxboxx
post Dec 20 2005, 04:47 PM

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QUOTE(Lord_Ashe @ Dec 19 2005, 10:19 PM)
Hehe..true. In fact, Pixel Plus 2 is just that - a very good line doubler  tongue.gif
*
PP2 is line doubler only when processing interlace signal. but when 480p or better, it's will be progressive mode. correct me if i'm wrong.

but those 100Hz tv is only line doubler, it doesn't support 480p. again, correct me if i'm wrong.

QUOTE(Matrix @ Dec 20 2005, 09:23 AM)
Actually, all the major HDTV brand uses some kinda line doubler technology...vertically and horizontally. Some even got the nerve to call it line-quadrauple due to this...ah well...u can't argue with marketing people...smile.gif
line doubler only when displaying interlace signal right?

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