does reciprocal relation exists between race and intelligence? that certain intelligence and wit is only available to some while the others were denied of it, and the deciding factor is the race that you belong to.

or is it just a corresponding coincidence of genetic variance within races that so by luck the intelligence was inherited through blatant polygamous activities which would inadvertently give bloom to a whole community of intellectuals.

you can always refer to real GDP for comparison to this IQ score chart of their achievements.

Where does these data came from?

Interesting stuff though Neuroscience was my major, and I never came across the fact that race has anything to do with intelligence. But in some theo-socio studies, stated that most of the people with Jewish blood has higher IQs than most other races in this world.

This post has been edited by annariana: Nov 16 2009, 06:19 PM

in my opinion, jewish people's intelligence has nothing to do with the blood, dna etc. it's their mindset (overbearing, money minded) that brings them to the higher level. that's why jewish parents are well known to be strict and overbearing. in fact, most of them are european looking (ashkenazim) rather than middle-eastern looking (mizrahi)

and because of their success, jews are susceptible to judeophobic remarks such as yahudi laknatullah, scum of the universe etc. they are also blamed for all misfortunes in this world and subjected to conspiracy theories such as freemasonry, rotary club, new world order etc

contrary to popular belief, "god's chosen people" is a term used by the jews to deliver and propagate their mosaic faith, not as an excuse to belittle the gentiles/goyims as a subhuman.

This post has been edited by quintessential: Nov 16 2009, 06:51 PM

If you surround yourself with people that are stingy and money minded chances are you will grow up being one yourself. If you surround yourself with people that are of so and so behavior chances are you will develop similar behaviors/traits. How much of influence does the environment someone was brought up in contribute to IQ?

PS : Of course there will always be rebels, people that do not conform to the norm of their society.

yay. i heard their parents begin a very strict education schedule for them since they were very young. like 7 years old expected to finish memorise the Bible.
Btw,annariana, what exactly do you study in neuroscience? and how is it? fun?

I bet the score dispersion within the racial groups are larger than the difference in means between groups. Also your stats are not controlled for education, social conditions, health etc.

Is it a surprise that bushmen score the lowest when they're also the least plugged into the modern world?

Agreed. But then, scientifically, there are studies about the Jews IQ level around some institution, and I believe Ford's International Jew highlighted it too. But then, even cognitive studies stated that human brain potential are developed by their environment, but the pace are coordinated by the bloodline. The bloodline factor is possible as there are score dispersion within racial groups, remember the upside down U graph

And I do think, the earlier suppression of the Jews, Jews' stressing history and the "God's chosen people" theory had made up their pride, thus making them work harder to be smarter than other races.


You can Google it. The cognitive studies, physiology, neuroanatomy and sociology are very interesting when put together, I would love to see neurosciences being integrated with social studies one day. Too bad, it's somewhat theorical almost all the time, no practicality over life



That's why we need the source of this data, TS

bill gate said Indians are the most brilliant people in the world

most of the time, it really depends on the country culture and up-bringing.... and intelligent is subjective...

Say if we city people goes into jungle, our intelligent would only lead us to starvation, but bushmen have a higher intelligent in jungle to survive.

From what I know about India, the place is very competitive to the extend you have to say "You know and can do it" even if you know nuts about the stuff.

In Singapore, the culture is so kiasu to the extend you have to excel in education... same goes to Korean culture

As for Jews, just read to understand Jew Culture

I've read previously that intelligent have some correlation to number of languages a person can communicate

This post has been edited by arthurlwf: Nov 17 2009, 12:00 AM

the data came from wikipedia. as stated as "sos". as unreliable as it is, its a good impetus to stimulate a discussion dont you think?

and as about the jews, i belief their immunity in the society is very much pivotal to their selective breeding way of surviving. see how the jews often made links with eugenism? even the nazi third reich were felt threatened by their presence.

---

Added on November 17, 2009, 12:20 amjews as i have mentioned, lucky for them, natural selection and environmental factors favored them very much so.

back in those days, christians were forbidden from reaping self profit through money lending and businesses of that nature.

so the jews jumped at the chance which thence made the jews far richer than anyone else and so did their ability to afford to have more offspring. financial freedom gave them the opportunity to expand in every ways at the rate faster than anyone else.

This post has been edited by 99chan: Nov 17 2009, 12:20 AM

so from that, can i safely assume that race is very much a determinant for intelligence? after all how you were brought up often has a bearing to the norms practiced by the race youre part of. yes?

there is no universal scale that measures intelligence without the result skewed biasly.

true that the bushmen are the outliers here, so lets take them out of the context and compare those that are of the same given education, environmental factors and health conditions.

and take a look at stereotypes ie indians = doctors, chinese = accountants etc. these stereotypes should account for a certain degree of credibility for it to become a generalization right?

I'd say its practically impossible construct an experimental design to fully normalise for education, environment, health, etc given that the invididual experience is so varied. Apart from that how could any research design factor for individual traits like determination or sloth?

on the observed stereotypes e.g. indians = doctors, rubber tappers, paraquat suicides OR chinese = accountants, businessmen, ahlong victims: a lot of these arise from social conditions where the people from the group share common ethnic experiences/ influences. Indians more likely to be laywers & doctors because these are prestigious professions for that ethnicity (social) and their parents are more likely to be doctors/lawyers (family).

there's no reason to suspect genetic traits.

There are actually reasons to suspect genetic traits. IQ has their own probability distribution too, genetic-wise. In behavorial neuroscience, we came to a conclusion that behavorial traits affects strongly on IQ. Behaviour are strongly inherited bloodline-wise. Active behaviour over a certain field may cause active movements of a certain cerebral part of the brain, thus increasing their IQ on that specific fields. And behavorial traits are genetically inherited.

one of my niece.. 3 years old.. he could play piano(other song that he heard in TV) by just observing his mum play happy birthday to you and see the key and the notes

Ifthere is a link from genes -> traits -> behaviour -> IQ, how strong is causal link between each link in the chain?

Even if this is true (& I have reservations over "Behaviour are strongly inherited bloodline-wise") how far can these genes be applied to summarise racial IQ? Bear in mind also that even those who strongly identify with a certain race may not genetically be of pure race anyway.

I have a uni-friend back in Australia of Aborigine origin but adopted when few months old by a couple, foster-dad professor in Uni, foster-mom lawyer and he grows up to be 1 of the youngest CEO in the country today. I wont mention name but is this a good success measures not in blood-line but upbringing environment?

I always belief that if we were to sit for an IQ test set by the Aborigine way, I think we will all failed miserably with the lowest IQ fit for survival. So for the modernised societies to categorise the other societies that their races are of poor mental alertness or acuteness or intelligence for that matter is rather very lame and irresponsible.

It is as good as saying that a room full of Japanese/Koreans/Chinese has higher intelligence than a full room of Red Indian/Aborigine/Orang asli. Try and dump these two groups in a remote isolated island and see which group will last the longer.

My point is human being has always have an urge to strive for more in things they do, ie. more money, power, fame, etc. but these are for the societies that values them. As for "bushmen societies type" they will probably strive for more live-stock breeding, better crops output, better yield, etc. and so they will have their own intelligence to achieve that.

Stereotyping races is such an abhorrent act. Look at the malay race itself and you will see good example. There are more malays in SG and Indonesia that is so successful in business and studies compares to the locals here but can we categorise malay race as an incompetent race? The locals are as such bcos of forever handouts and non-competitive environment they are in, so forever they will rank 2nd class to their malays counterpart in other region of the world.

I think genes, DNA can really affect a person's IQ.
Race usually evolves and so does their genes..

I see a lot of people stereotyping genes = races. Every race has a different IQ variation graph - there are little people who has lower IQ, a lot with mediocre IQ and a little with high IQ over every races. So better genes are those people on the right side of the upside U graph.

How strong is the causal link? It varied, nobody knows. But I strongly agree that behavior is inherited genetically, and behavior controls the environment around a certain individual, causing IQ to be developed according to the behavior. But then, it's debatable, purely debatable.

This discussion will never end, seriously. Race and intelligence even have their own Wiki page. I'd rather cling to the fact that IQ is not a suitable yardstick to measure someone's intelligence. Different brains has different active sites, talents and environmental effects, thus there are no one fixed yardstick that can measure the max thinking capability of all humans.

http://www.iqleague.com/group/malaysia
maybe we can do a survey here!!
everyone do a test and please state it own age.IQ level
Race,and the higher education

The stats seems to make sense from the on-the-street talk about communities of East Asians settling in the country and outperforming the locals who would be South East Asians by distinction. The ongoing talk is that those of East Asian descent would be more hardworking and actually capable but given less benefits by the government as a form of control. Makes a good debate.

*I have no idea why I just shared that*

it seem not logic to me.

people born with high IQ doesn't specifically come from only one race/region. people always label chinese is good in maths, indians are good in hospitality etc but that isn't the real case, there are chinese that fail at maths.

bloodline well inheritance but a smart father and mother can still have a chance to born a retard one

nowadays there are miracle stories on very young kid that know how to play piano from just hearing the notes, writing stories out of nowhere, excel in fast mind calculation etc.

and I fully believed it is not environment affected as myself is an example rebellious kid that does the opposite that my parent expect me as. you can't really raise up and nurture your son as a doctor if he can't / not interested in it, no matter how hard you push him.

as noted this thread is better just end up as an article instead of discussion because it will be never ending revealing the human IQ

Argument 1:
Every experiment has it's own assumption, every test has it's weakness.

Say this is for example an iq test on English literature. Having people from all over the world taking this exam, and the Englishman having a better understanding and the language being their mother tongue and living in the cultural context. I would say the Englishman would score well.

Same goes to this comparison of IQ (btw wiki is not a good source). One group may answer according to their cultural perspective/ logic and the others may have applied theirs. If the East Asian, westerners and etc was to take an iq test by the bushmen. I would bet the bushmen would give them a low score as they don't see things in their logic.

Conclusion 1:Hence i would say that everyman is smart in their own arena.

But wait i have another thought, This is what the researchers call Spurious effect

Argument 2:
What i am arguing is Race and IQ is a spurious effect. The other factor to connect the dote is attitude

Example: Social scientist has found out that hot weather increases car theft activities. This is true in terms of statistics the scientists collected but how does it makes sense. Going on with this study they found out that. Hot weather leads to car owners leaving their car window open and this leads to car theft.

Conclusion:
I believe the connection between Race and IQ is attitude.
Assumption:
From the above hypothesis, there are assumptions that is some race are lazier/less prone to improving their knowledge/ignorant ...etc, whilst others are hardworking/more open to challenges and improvement and etc.



Overall what i am trying to say is that every IQ test is biased and not culturally sensitive but i do agree that there is relations between Race and IQ and that is attitude.

This post has been edited by cIvIc_noob: Nov 27 2009, 11:44 PM

thats more of nurture and not nature.

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Added on November 28, 2009, 8:54 amin genetics there is no 100% especially if you are dealing with species/sub species. an intelligent race can produce dumb individuals, dumb race can produce individuals. what is said to be observed is the mean intelligence as well as the range.

and then also theres the nature vs nurture. good natural gifts need good nurture in order for best performance. but bad natural gift will not perform well even if given nurture

This post has been edited by lin00b: Nov 28 2009, 08:54 AM

The thing that I've personally noticed is that intelligence appears to be very much rooted in the environment in which the child is brought up. The post by itchibawa kasigaru above (2nd spoiler) about his Australian Aborigine friend show exactly this.

Case 1 - Malaysian-Indians vs. UK & US Indians
I don't mean to be racist, and I hope I don't offend anybody, but a good case study would be the Indian community in Malaysia vs. the Indian communities of the United Kingdom and United States.

A majority (not all) of Malaysian-Indians today are descendants of Indians from lower socio-economic classes in India and were brought to Malaysia by the British as labourers during the years of British occupation in Malaysia. These people were given limited education beyond tapping rubber and managing estates and for the most part were allowed to dwell in their own laid-back estate lifestyle.

On the other hand, a majority of Indians living in the UK and US today are highly educated migrants who migrated to those nations armed with degrees, masters and PhDs. So when this group sets up a community in the UK and US, obviously their lifestyles differ drastically from that of the first generation Malaysian-Indians brought to Malaysia by the British.

Whereas the majority of the early generations of Malaysian-Indians brought by the British would place little importance on education and would instead focus more on paying off their debt to the British for bringing them here and surviving in a new world, the latter group (i.e. the educated migrants to UK & US) would bring up their children with a lot of emphasis on education and mental development.

So then if we do an IQ test in between the two groups, it'll hardly be surprising if the Indians in the UK and US perform much better than the Indians (again - not all!) here in Malaysia.

Case 2 - African Africans vs. British Africans
The same can be said about African-natives living in Africa (i.e. Africans) vs. Africans living in the UK (i.e. British). In the UK, the Blacks have integrated very well into the society and are pretty much indistinguishable from the Whites in terms of socio-economics. There are plenty of very wealthy Black and White Brits and there are also a fair number of poor Black and White Brits.

When we compare the African-native communities in Africa with the British black communities in the UK, it's again very obvious that the Blacks in the UK will outperform the African-natives of Africa. Again the difference between these communities is environment and emphasis on education and mental development as well as the drive to be higher up in the socio-economic ladder.

And so...
So even if genes did affect IQ in a way through some behavioural traits, the effect it has in modern days is very limited. Also we must acknowledge that the kinds of things that IQ tests test for is of little importance for the Bushmen in Africa. The only thing that an IQ test done on a Bushmen proves is that by Western standards, an African Bushmen will not fare well in a Western world order.

But at the same time, if you let the Bushmen set the questions for an IQ test of their own, all of us would fail miserably because to Bushmen, slight variations in the sand can be a sign of animal tracks a few days old, and to us it'll just seem like... well sand! So when that question pops up in the IQ test, obviously we're all going to fail, and the Bushmen will classify us as being "intellectually inadequate".





This post has been edited by DeniseLau: Nov 28 2009, 11:59 AM

What happen to the previous thread on IQ definition? My main questions to the statistics based on wiki are: How was IQ measured? What mental ability test(s) was it based on? The sample size? How did the researchers determine the subject variable: race? More specifically, what were the quotas for the participants to be eligible for this study (i.e. living in that country for n number of years?)?

Edited: Just saw it was a meta-analysis study, which should have a relatively large sample size. but meta-analysis study has its weaknesses. i.e. file-drawer effect.

Edited 2: try reading on Flynn effect, the IQ gap may not be that huge anymore

This post has been edited by creap: Nov 28 2009, 04:51 PM

whether we like it or not, there's such a thing as inherited memory through our genes... and it is all part of eveolution.. just like muscle memory, the ability to do certain things are passed on through our offsprings... so certain races has passed on better genes than others for certain reason...

I think what has been said makes sense, but here's what I think.

1. There's a difference between IQ, and knowledge we are brought up with. If one is intelligent, they will be able to learn and form new ideas from the environment. So, we cannot compare, natives and a civilized man's survivability on an island as a proper measurement. Instead we should look at universal areas which is practical for the learning and thinking process, eg. maths, reflexes, etc. because these applies either you're counting your bus fare or the number of fish caught.

2. IQ test- Though present IQ tests are the best method we have for measuring, I do not believe that IQ tests can ever be sufficient in determining ones real intelligence.

For 1, there are certain aspects of intelligence which cannot be measured like creativitiy (or have not). 2ndly, For any given area, there can actually be sub categories which we overlook. For example 1 person maybe better at multiplication, another would be good at division. And both belong to Maths. There are probably, infinite numbers of sub categories.

3rdly, Intelligence is relative to the environment, so in some cases we might need more maths, in others we may need perhaps better fine motor skills.

3. Upbringing- yes I believe upbringing plays a major role with what we can see today, with race-job preferences. But not an indicator of intelligence.

4. Race does effect our intelligence - of course not to say that one is smarter then the next, just that one maybe more inclined to excel at one area then the next. This is because, our race is basically an indicator of our parentage. And we know that intelligence can be inherited up to a certain extent. It is so, with physical traits such as dark skin peoples abilities to be able to stand under the sun for longer periods of time thus most probably the same for intelligence.

5. As to the savvants we see, which appears in all races, I believe those are anomalies. Same as why some people are borned crippled, or retarded. It is not related to race.

This post has been edited by TheDoer: Dec 17 2009, 08:59 AM

I will side with those of the view that intelligence is largely attributed to the environmental factors to which a person is exposed to. That being said a person's race has a lot to do with a person's culture, hence the slightly measurable differences in IQ test when studied based on race. Thus the results we see are not surprising as the East Asian cultures have always emphasized the importance of education for generations starting from a young age.

That being said, I might be wrong and perhaps geneticist will one day scientifically prove intelligence as being a product of our gene DNA sequences. Assuming that this happens, blatant racism would erupt with discrimination and even the possible return of eugenics.



This post has been edited by Chill4x: Dec 17 2009, 02:14 AM

It's simple. The race with the most love for wisdom is the one.

hum... Refer to my points 1 and 4
and as annariana mentioned:
Whether we like it or not, I believe race does make a difference. But note that the difference, does not mean one race is more superior than the next. So people shouldn't be using it to talk about eugenics.

Eugenics is a myth. It's like a doctor and a mechanic arguing whose smarter, but they have to accept that they can't live without one another.

It is not an ironclad guarantee but yes, in general, there will be some difference

Take an African, for example. His body has some advantages over mine, as in the muscle structure and the ability of that guy in using the muscle.

There is no need to wonder how the blacks can dance so gracefully. It comes natural to them. Like the Moonwalk from MJ, no matter how a white guy or a Japanese guy try, it just ain't the same.

But the African guy don't have ALL advantage over me. There are some advantages on my side. Maybe the ability to withstand cold (Africans are not made to tahan sejuk), for example.

So IQ wise, there ought to be a difference too.

But there is a caveat. Individual's IQ level differs. Even taking the highest IQ group in the world, the Armenians, there are some really stupid Armenians as well.

As a group, yes, there would be a difference.

If we start to mix up races, like for instance, the blacks in United States are not pure black, then it may be harder to measure the difference.

Take Barrack Obama.

If one is to measure his IQ, which group should his IQ be counted as?

The black --- from his African dad ?

The white --- from his White American mom ?

Such studies are only indicative of trends within the community and is not a direct nor accurate measurement of their intellectual capability (mainly because we have no idea what the sample size was and who they actually sampled). We must also take into account how advanced the nation is and what sort of intellectual material they are exposed to.

Obviously some obscure African tribe would appear to have far less intelligence as opposed to say, a country like Malaysia- they have to survive the desert for a living (heh, for a living, lol, pun unintended) while Malaysians like me drink teh tarik, read the newspaper and do sudoku in the morning. Of course we'll be far more superior when we take the IQ test lah. Haiyo.

And I haven't even touched upon how flawed IQ tests can be, ne...

This post has been edited by teh tarik satu: Jan 15 2010, 11:51 AM

Haha, found this thread while googling for racial statistics... Just wanted to add something here, there have been studies that divide the intelligence of a group of people based on race.

It was done by someone in the 90's, and the research was started much earlier than that.

The top quota were the Oriental's, or the asian chinese, japanese, koreans etc. 2nd where the whites, the last was the black people and the second last was the brown people(malays, philipinoes, thai malays).

This research was based on a very large sample and was a follow up from a researcher who did the study in 1969.

This is an excerpt:



Isn't it sort of prophetic? The fact that these different level of intelligence correlate to the success of any particular country. The study was done during a period where the white people were at the top of the economic spectrum. The balance of power is shifting now to the east.
If this was an experiment, doesn't the progress of each race in a particular country confirm the initial hypothesis?

The brain is a physical organ, and there is no reason to suppose that its growth and functioning are not controlled by the same rules of heredity and development as the rest of the body. It would not, then, be strange to find that intelligence is more markedly present in certain groups.

For example, most ethnics in the cold north are more intelligent since the harsh environments and climate made the life very difficult compared to hot tropical climate and therefore the genes with superior intellects are more likely to be selected. I thinks its obvious when you see most of high achievers in malaysia are of chinese descents. And also if you try to compare ancient european and east asian civilizations with south east asian or african(which literally non-existent), they are much more magnificient. One should always acknowledge and face them. I myself could actually live quite comfortably with the discovery that intelligence either is, or is not, mainly controlled by genes, and is sharply different between populations - even if it were shown that my own ethnic group is on the stupid side. My own intelligence would remain as it is

As for the jews, only the ashkenazi(german jews) are known for their intelligence, mainly because of their people being persecuted by the european for hundred of years, only the educated people or rich merchants with genetically higher IQ are able to survive and reproduce consistently

btw watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXRjmyJFzrU&feature=related

Your quote is directly from Discovery channel, many of these topic are from after watching Astro. In modern times, such definition don't make sense any more and it is culture / religion that prevent from advancing, science already identify us as homo sapiens regardless of race and no particular race can't become lawyer/ doctor/ judge/ engineer...

It is the white race who seems to dominate in terms of technology never mind who build the pyramid or who invented paper to gun powder, smart people create on top of each other not keep a secret until it was lost, they cultivate and document knowledge rather than rely on the holly book alone. These are the characteristics of smart people, even if one is born intelligent but worship only one book and become a priest / monk, all the intelligence is to tell people to behave and become ordinary eventually.

This post has been edited by 3dassets: Mar 8 2011, 10:54 PM

" Race and intelligence, are they correlated?"

I don't think so. Little to no empirical evidence that suggest that intelligence and race are correlated. If such studies even exist, researchers would find it hard to justify cultural differences. The concept of intelligence is not culturally sensitive enough and tends to take into account only the westernised conceptualisation of what is important.

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Added on April 25, 2011, 1:44 amIt really depends on what differences we are talking about and where these differences are attributed to (the cause of these differences).

I think that the society, community and culture as a whole make a difference in our way of thinking which shapes our intelligence. But this is different to the intelligence that is inherent in us (the potential of realising our intelligence).
Say for example, if you put an American in a culture in which she is deprived from learning, then her IQ 'intelligence' would be significantly lower than an typical American in her age. Without an opportunity to learn and grow no matter what race you are in, you are deprived from realising your potential.

Many racial groups have limited opportunity to learn

This post has been edited by Angela Lee: Apr 25 2011, 01:44 AM

Any race can have genius but look which race is more superior to lead the world?

Which race is the leader in your opinion?

You can see with your eyes, know it by knowledge and use it everyday even believe in your heart. The answer is obvious, will you object if I say its the Malay?

This post has been edited by 3dassets: Apr 27 2011, 06:23 PM

I don't know enough about it to say it. What I do believe is that (about 70% of) intelligence is determined by will, thoughts, environment and circumstances. If one is willing to learn he/she will become bright Thanks for your comments 3dassets.

I would not give a figure like %, we become intelligent if we learn and analyse, its a self initiated action and better make it a habit. IQ / EQ changes accordingly and we won't be the same person we are today in the future.

I came across a recent journal article that found that :

"...evidence demonstrates that in intelligence, brain size, and other life history traits, East Asians average higher than do Europeans who average higher do South Asians, African Americans, or sub-Saharan Africans. The group differences are between 50 and 80% heritable..." (Rushton & Jensen, 2010)
(The Open Psychology Journal, 2010, 3, 9-13)

Does it mean that East Asians are more intelligent??

It is still a one person's finding, I wonder why African living in Africa are not as intelligent as those in the US / UK, the proof of environmental effect rather than gene factor. The place make people dump, only two types of utensil used on dining table, these are the places that breed smart people at first and now the environment isn't a factor anymore but education, the essential element is understand the ability to think and analyse.

I was dump and hate school then fail all the way to SPM but I feel so much smarter than people around me now because I continue to learn from the environment and practice skill.

Yeah that's because intelligence is mostly defined by the US/UK researchers. . . "hey this is intelligence and we are the smartest among all races" (just joke). In most races, intelligence is about adopting the environment and using practical skills to survive.