Hey guys,

Do human need religion? Why do people need religion? I had a heated argument with one of my close contacts about this. He said something like 'you know Anne, I think even if I don't have any religion, I will be a good man.' Uhuh, yeah right.

This profusely denying the normal theory that human need religion for self control. People who is without religion tends to do a lot of bad stuff, thanks to the concept of sin and Satanism. Or religion is merely an attraction to humans? Check this out. Credits to Dr Reiss, Ohio State U :



Religion control one's morale, that's a debatable fact. Most people who are religious are good, but then the Pope molested children. Malay muslims who believed in Islam, the most complete religion in this world, are so behind, so are most muslim countries in terms of morale and quality of society, let alone economy.

So answer this question. Its worth a discussion anyhow

Anna





UPDATE :

We're already came this far. So now, I have 1 question for you to answer, directly. No straying. Please answer according to your own belief, I know we have Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, atheists, agnostics, whatever beliefs here. I don't want to be general, just state what you believe so that we can SHARE the knowledge of different perspectives here. NO DEBATES please. And, please answer in 123s.

Example :

I need religion because :
1.
2.
3.
4.


Question:

So you need religion. Why do you need religion? What aspect of YOUR religion do you need in your life, and what aspect that you don't need, and why? Please answer according to your own religion and beliefs, do NOT BE GENERAL.

or

So you do not need religion. What about religion that is so against your logic? Do you need the spirituality? If you do, why only the spirituality? And what change will spirituality do to your life? What do you think about people who are religious?

or

So you do not need religion, and God does not exist. Why do you have that logic? Why spirituality does not matter? What do you think about life after death, being an atheist? What do you think about people who are religious?


I hope you guys will contribute. Strongly, NO DEBATE AND NO PREACHING PLEASE. I do this for us to see the different perspectives of our thinking on this topic, so that you guys will understand each other better. NO LABELLING ANY RELIGION OF ANYTHING SENSITIVE e.g EXTREMISTS, FUNDAMENTALIST etc, you know IT'S NOT ETHICAL THAT WAY.


Answers please~



This post has been edited by annariana: Nov 18 2009, 09:06 PM

Whoa...hold on to your horses. Just a clarification. The pope didn't molest any children. There were unrelated cases in England and US where some priests were found to molest vulnerable children.

trust me. human need religion.

they need it in order to know they don't need it later.

Oh pardon me Controversies can always make up people's perceptions you know. Like when people mention MJ and they think of children molestation lol Sorry if I was wrong.

But here's something interesting I googled up. Catholic sex abuse cases. Catholics are really big on sex abuse after all lol. No offense ya.

This post has been edited by annariana: Nov 15 2009, 04:26 PM

For your question, I think we human can work well withuot religion... what is your definition of religion? abrahamatic religion? or non reveal religion like buddhism, confusciousm etc??

I bet this thing not only happens in christianity.. but ALL religion where people of power use the name of religion to gain power and money...

very nice and debatable topic. i was thinking should i open a thread like this after going through some topics here in PHD.

i don't practice any religion nor do i believe in the existence of God.
i can say that i am no worse in terms in moral than any one i know with religion.
in our current society, we have laws and cultural norms that control our daily actions so that we don't step over the line between right and wrong.
religion does that function in the past and the present(to a lesser extent).
all religion can be sum up to be a set of rules and regulation.

i personally think that some of the laws or rules in religion is outdated. example like not eating beef for Buddhist and not eating pork of Muslims.
we have to think why these rules are there in the 1st place. most of the rules in religion is due to the conditions we live in in ancient times or some events that occurred that time and these rule might have lost their reason or practicality in our time.

one function i see in religion is serving as the base of our moral.

i apologize if my post is offensive to some people as my knowledge of religion is limited.

I don't have a specific religion I refer to, as this is supposed to be a general philosophic topic. What I can say is that religion is all about believing in God and divinity.

Religion has been abused, yes you're right. No offense for Catholics here, I only highlighted that specific Wikipedia topic as it really amused me at some point, Catholic is so controversial on the sex abuse issue lol.

If human can work well without religion, why religion still exist then?

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Added on November 15, 2009, 5:24 pmYou should. PhD is getting sleepier than ever, seriously I really want to see it as bustling as Stuff For The Ladies lol

I found your opinion very fascinating. It made me think that religion might not only serve as the base of our morale alone, it's a way of life, for some religion. Comparative religion had always been one of my favorite topic to read on. I don't know the cause of the Buddhist-no-beef issue, as nobody can really explain why Buddhism forbids beef. That's one of the weaknesses of non-revealed religion I guess.

But then I read up a lot, on why Islam forbid muslims to eat pork, as it's widely discussed on the net at some point. They often related pork with diseases - so at some point they have a scientific argument for it, and it's not a practise derived from ancient times.

This is what the muslims say - Why Can't I Eat Pork - IslamOnline

And these are the verifications I found on the net on their scientific reasons not to eat pork -
Pork Contains Worms And Causes Diseases?
Pork's Dirty Secret (er, it's on pigs' environmental issues. i found it related somehow)

No offense for pork eaters yeah, this is just something I wanted to share. Comments welcome, correct me if I'm wrong

This post has been edited by annariana: Nov 15 2009, 05:24 PM

for your question from neutral and universal perspective point of view, I draw two conclusion

1) people tend to hope for miracle and wish that there are something larger than life that will save them, grant them wishes or even give them eternal happiness (heaven)..things out there that hold the question... who are we? why we are here? etc... they don`t care if this GOD exist or not, if you question them, they will bit their tongue and say I don`t care, I believe my god is true till the end... or some might say you mock t heir god and hit you... which this GOD don`t even say anythingto them.. everyrthing is said by priest.. or political leader... For GOD.. etc

2) or another type pf religion that deals with innerself rather than supreme being... like buddhism, atheistism, or even sciencism... which is not a religion.. but it governs what people think and see this world....



refer to my No1 example...

from your POV I do agree that from then till now, religion controls people more effectively than politic....

when leader say a thing, public might react and hold a demo or riot...

but when a priest say.. GOD had spoken to me.... and everyone listen and obey....

reflection time.....

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Added on November 15, 2009, 5:30 pmpork is chinese No1 delicacy.. and the chinese population is No1 in the world

This post has been edited by Awakened_Angel: Nov 15 2009, 05:30 PM

So, from your two conclusions, do you think human need religion? You seem to diffuse religion with politics lol~ Okay I'm being general, but that's waaay general already. I see you as an honest critic, voicing every imperfections you see about religion. So now, how can we correct these imperfections to match the true purpose of religion?

And that came another question. What do you think is the true purpose of religion?

I would like to refer this situation to pre-renaissance's dark ages, in which the Indulgences norm are started by the Catholics. This argument is so ineffective, seriously, we're not that uncivilized anymore right?

But then, this reminded me of a scene in I Not Stupid 1, about a mother asking for Guanyinma's tips on how to make her son excel in PSLE exam. Damn hilarious, go Youtube it!

Haha. That's why I respect vegetarian chinese lol, they are so beyond the normal perception of chinese = pork meat. 素食 FTW! And actually, chinese eat fish and seafood more than pork. I'm a muslim and I never had any eating problems when backpacking in China lol

[quote=annariana,Nov 15 2009, 06:47 PM]
So, from your two conclusions, do you think human need religion? You seem to diffuse religion with politics lol~ Okay I'm being general, but that's waaay general already. I see you as an honest critic, voicing every imperfections you see about religion. So now, how can we correct these imperfections to match the true purpose of religion?[/quote]

ahaha... again.. the word perfect is actually delusional... we always talk about being perfect but know nothing as perfect.. perfect is a word created for human to aim for.. again.. what is your definition of religion?


[quote]
And that came another question. What do you think is the true purpose of religion?
I would like to refer this situation to pre-renaissance's dark ages, in which the Indulgences norm are started by the Catholics. This argument is so ineffective, seriously, we're not that uncivilized anymore right?
[\quote]
for me? it worked well in keeping human as human.. our humanity and morale... else, its just controlling tool...
pardon me.. but this thing still happens now.. muslim haji would talk about politic is masjid and use name of allah and talk about government parties and people would agree as its on allah as in msia (islam=malays;malay=islam)


[quote]
But then, this reminded me of a scene in I Not Stupid 1, about a mother asking for Guanyinma's tips on how to make her son excel in PSLE exam. Damn hilarious, go Youtube it! [/quote]

yes...
www.guanyinma.com


again.. that is the same as my No1 example.. just that different place; different culture and different god...

[quote]
Haha. That's why I respect vegetarian chinese lol, they are so beyond the normal perception of chinese = pork meat. 素食 FTW! And actually, chinese eat fish and seafood more than pork. I'm a muslim and I never had any eating problems when backpacking in China lol
[/quote]

you are chinese muslims??

you are right on that part... modern chinese eat pork less now...

This post has been edited by Awakened_Angel: Nov 15 2009, 05:59 PM

What is religion if not moral politics?

In my opinion, the question of whether Man needs Religion is very similar to the question of whether Man needs Electricity. Man can definitely live without it, but it's just so much easier to have religion around. I disagree that Man is only good because of religion, though it does emphasize good morals. Like electricity, it can be used for good or for bad. Crusades & religious killings, anyone? You may say they're misinterpreting their religion, but what makes anyone else any better?

The purpose of religion may be just to convince people that there will be a final judgement at the end of our life whose punishment lasts close to an eternity. Scary. no? Kind of makes you want to be good. More importantly though, religion gives meaning to our lives. & of course, Man is a sucker for finding meaning in our mundane lives. Whether or not it has any truth.

I'm a chinese & i see myself as an agnostic buddhist. Pork's the bomb! Though honestly, it is the dirtiest meat you could eat & i try to reduce my consumption of it.

my definition of religion isn't so different from yours. I think of religion as a moral control factor, and also a way of life - that's the point that is different from your POV.

Lol I'm a malay, just that I understand other races as much as they want to be understood haha, whatever that is


I like that statement. "Religion makes you want to be good"

But then, another common thing every religion have instead of morality is actually spirituality. Do you think spirituality is something men need?


Now I wish I'm a moderator, little daredevil

Dei kawan, there's a thread on this in RWI, albiet it being peppered with rather fail extremists.

On the topic at hand though, some people find that they need a cornerstone in their lives on which to hold their beliefs. In a sense, not everyone needs it so it isn't really a must.

TS have you ever hoped that you are blessed when going for exam?
Have you ever hoped that you are blessed when you are sick?

whoa... I never expect a malay muslim to have such thinking... most of my malay muslim friend used to think as usual.. You know.. allah is the bese knowing and we should pasrah and never to question god or anything else...

yeap.. to me race is nothing.... you are who you are..




My manager used to use this phrase "spirit".. he is a buddhist but never believe in spirit as in islam or christianity... but he meant spirit as in the character of human... the "aliveness"

thanks for quoting this.. I missed it.. a smackdown... LOL

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Added on November 15, 2009, 7:45 pmeveryone hope and wanted that... IF GOD is proven existed... till then, it is still hope... hope that during christmas santa will come down via the chimney with present....

still.... prayer remain as prayer.... unanswered one....

This post has been edited by Awakened_Angel: Nov 15 2009, 07:45 PM

First, you have to define spirituality haha. You don't have to be religious to be spiritual, you don't even have to be theistic.

The question of whether or not we've ever hoped to be blessed is irrelevant, isn't it? It doesn't show that we need religion, only that people take it as a safe bet. People usually do it as smaller scale of Pascal's wager if they don't really believe in it.

I don't think we need religion. Most of us just need something to believe in that makes us feel secure, that doesn't leave us feeling empty. We want to feel interconnected, like we are a part of something big, like we matter. We want a God like the Christian one because He will become our personal best friend and will lead us to salvation. It is honestly extremely appealing especially when you're down in life, though my logical side refuses to let me embrace it. Too many holes and fallacies. For now, i think that Man is not ready to give up religion. Most of us are not yet intelligent enough and in touch with ourselves to accept life as it is, and that the odds are that we matter as much as a used tissue does in the larger scheme of the universe.

Thanks dude, guess I missed it. Never a fan of RWI anyway, too many jargons sometimes and yeah, a lotta extremists



I heard this defense, quite a lot of times from revealed religion buddies. I don't want to snap back 'nay, that's so cliched' or anything similar to it. But did you ever think that God exist, not as our doormat? (doormat : like someone you always go for when you have problems)

If everyone thinks like that about God, I think people will only pray to God when they are sick, or they are facing exams. Please, find more causes why we must believe in God instead of having God as some sort of invisible insurance - only go for Him when you're in trouble. Duh



Haha yeah, I heard that a lot from my fellow same-race-same-religion-buddies too. There is actually an aspect in Islam that we must question God's power. But then I think, vast books had been written by muslim and non-muslim scholars on the topic, why we must believe in God. So I think it is not a taboo or something unspeakable, everything has to have a reason


@Awakened_Angel,

What I meant by spirituality is how you connect with God, like how God'll bless you, and you'll think of God when you have trouble. Spirituality is in another word, how you feel the God is there for you via practises like prayers, meditations etc. And yes your manager is right, some people define spirituality as the 'other' world. I'm very fascinated with Wikipedia's definition of Spirituality

@pllx,

You're right. I oversaw my little brother Tasawwur Islam textbook (it's so easy even non-muslims took this subject @SPM level lol), it stated that even the most brute atheist will think of God, seconds before death. Human are created to be hopeful towards God, no matter how huge an atheist's disbelief over God.

Actually I just found this out. People actually prefer spirituality more than religion. Guess that's why yoga, zen whatever meditation stuffs are so commercialized, no? Even The Beatles preferred Indian trancendental meditation over Bible studies lol!

I wonder why?

I do not believe we need religion in our lives.

That said, I still think that a human being needs some form of basic code of conduct to live by. A more definite term would be values. These values are somewhat analogous to the laws of robotics governing robots in Isaac Asimovs literature. Anyone having read the original books would know that the positronic brains of the robots cannot function without the laws of robotics programmed in. Similarly, I think a human being cannot function without a set of values to hold on to. However, these values are totally self realized and are changeable based on circumstances.

Most people find these values in religion, and i think thats good for them. Whatever works for a particular individual should be his or her way to go

i just share some ideas below, if you feel you could take it, then take it.

God never ever speak anything, it just human who claimed, from his/her mouth, it is from God.
If God ever exists, it shows its power, creativity through what it has created, human, galaxy, flower, animals and so on.

and by studying those creation, (and perhaps the best way) human would know God (or this giant system) little by little.

alien, (for me, they exists and real) they are more advance than us (assumption through what i have researched), so by knowing them, we would know more about our own human history.

the nearest path (to know more bout this giant vast universe system, god and ourselves) in our current time, is to engage with alien and learn what they already knew and we verify them.

perhaps they have God and religion too!

religion exists and will exists, because not every human can operate a machine without manual book.

religion nowadays is more like -> culture with add-on GOD figure & words
actually in most cases, human seems to follow culture more than follow religion. i would dare to say, nowadays religion composed of 90% culture and 10% religion.

perhaps, there are just too much "idiots" nowadays. (quote from our batuapi forumer)
yes, i agree with him/her. a more polite word would be "close minded sheep".

i always felt reluctant to use the word "bodoh", "idiots", "stupid" in my real life, but the more i saw, the more i felt, i got no other words that those.

and regarding allah, jesus and so on, that is another whole long story.after all, most current religion uses them as figure.

This post has been edited by sleepsleep: Dec 1 2009, 09:05 AM

Quote:
If God ever exists, it shows its power, creativity through what it has created, human, galaxy, flower, animals and so on.
End quote.

I personally do believe in a sort of God, but that statement is fallacious. You seem to imply that our universe is a proof of God. Cosmological aesthetics, like God is something idealistic and wonderful to believe in. Emphasis on believe. Religious ppl cause atheists narrow-minded to the concept of anything other than what they see. But if i claimed that my bottle of cough medicine is THE God, would you believe me? Please do not call other ppl close-minded simply because they disagree.

I reiterate, we don't need it. But as long as Man needs spiritual crutches and is desperate for eternal security, it's not going to go away. It's like an addiction, a dogmatic filibuster.

Btw, has it ever occured to anyone that there is a chance that we are the most intelligent creatures (the commercialized sort of intelligence as honestly, i think concerning wisdom, most of us are below animals) in the universe? It's a tiny chance but it's there nonetheless.

Fear IS your only God.

it is fear that makes man take up religion.ask yourself this one question and be honest with yourself;

Why do you pray to God? Is it for longer life? more money? a new car/house/partner? or that the cancer cells will dissolve from a loved one? no hungry children in Africa? for global warming to stop? or that God gives you a safe passage to heaven? We pray because we fear the outcome of whats to happen.

This is why we have religion, to grant hope to mere mortals like ourselves to get by day after day after day on this existence we call life.

life without direction is useless.

whats with all the BvNB derivative topics in pHD nowadays?

anyway, personal IMHO, human being as a species still need religion. individual people may not need religion depending on their thinking.

here's to hoping human being as a species may one day do without the need of religion

Religion is an ideology and belief. It is not an argument that can be challenged and there is no such thing as need or dont need. If u think you dont need, then who are to you to tell others they dont need? People believe in what they want. SAme if u think religion is important you cant tell someone that they will go to hell because they dont believe in religion.

Dude, I think you should start something about this extraterrestriality you've been reading. I really don't know why they're so significant to us lol.

Religion is religion, and culture is culture. Not all religions are derived from culture. Religions that has "holy books from god" are not cultural. And the Godly "figure" aren't just a figure, you know, they aren't just cough syrup bottles (a figure) you call God.

And actually, culture are affected by these kind of religion, but these kind of religion does not get affected by culture. Obvious examples are the Malays ”tahlil" culture that are affected by Islam, and Black Friday culture from Christianity. The religions that are derived from culture are like Shintoism, Buddhism, Confucius that are actually philosophies created by respective Gautama and Confucius, which are derived from culture. That's why we classify religions as "revealed" (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) and "non-revealed"(other than the stated), they are definitely not the same.

"..like God is something idealistic and wonderful to believe in."

I agree on this statement anyway. God is supposed to be a superlative of everything, thats why we call him God. And that's why we don't call a bottle of cough syrup "god". That's because cough syrups aren't superlative, cough syrups doesn't impress me.

And yes, I do think there is a chance that we are the most intelligent creatures in the universe. I don't know about those hardcore UFO-aliens-extraterrestrial believers though, but personally I don't believe in them. Too many controversies and too many unproved proofs around, and it made me went so-what-if-they-exist?-they-are-none-of-my-business-i-dont-kacau-them-they-dont-kacau-me, sorta attitude.


You know, if everyone thinks like you, the world will be individualistic. We understand perfectly well that people believe what they want, but then discussing mind-over-matters over these aren't the same as preaching.

Religion definitely can be challenged - too many people are questioning the too many religions here, seeking for the true one, and the wisdom that came with it. You said it yourself, religion is THEOLOGY and belief, thus there must be a purpose for it to exist in this world. And to know that purpose, people discuss, learn, compare from one religion to another, searching for the best. Thus, it is challengeable and there are such questions of needing and not needing religion - there MUST be a cause why religious people and atheists co-exist.

I don't like to refer religion as an “ideology", not all religions are ideologies - how will you explain revealed religions that has holy books as ideologies? Only certain ones are ideologies, like Confucius and Zen.

This post has been edited by annariana: Nov 16 2009, 08:57 AM

Then how do u say we can compare and serach which is the best religion? So if you comapred and say islam is the best religion. DOes it mean i am on the lower class religion if i am a christian? This is

if you look in history, religion is generally used to
1. explain the unknown/allay fear of the unknown
2. guide people to do good
3. give courage in times of uncertainty/fear

these are generally the positive aspect, i'll ignore the negative aspect such as compel people to obey a leader, etc

given point 1 to 3, religion is no longer needed when
1. knowledge increase and/or people no longer fear the unknown
2. people do good for the sake of doing good
3. people learn to control their fear and doubt

And again, my decision does not affect your decision isn't it? I'm a muslim, doesn't mean that I'm of a higher class religion than others - this is what I believed after a lot of reading and research, as I used to be a rebel over the fact that I inherited my religion from my parents before. If you're a christian, I assume you'd know why you choose christianity too. Religion has no "higher" or "lower" class, and class, is not what we've been talking about, isn't it?


True, I respect this.

But then, I do think that human need something to control over them, so that people do good for the sake of doing good. There are sooo not-many Mother Teresas around. And people will never learn to control their fear and doubt, as self-help books still exists. So, I don't think the situation in which religion is no longer needed can exist simultaneously.

Well im born a christian but personally i dont believe so much in religion to the point that we have to be a fanatic. I do believe a person needs a religion as guide for them in life. If not they will get influenced easily by bad things.

I also believe that every religion is the same. That there is one God the creator. Its just we worship God different way and call God by different names. Its like language. It has the same meaning but different way of saying it.

For others, like buddism its a way of life which I believe is a good practic also.

I think I needto corerct t his.. Culture is the general word.. which mean religion is the sub of culture.. where religion it self is a culture....

what is culture? culture is the common perspective; behaviour; ritual performed; language and symbol....

even lowyat.net is a culture.. talk to your mum about RWI and she might not know it...

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Added on November 16, 2009, 12:15 pmyes.. Don`t you think its weird that certain selected people like priest etc can connect with God... and it is said that God is fair and just.......

have you watch the doc "the secret" it is said that god power them.. but look closer, it is actually the power of believe...

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Added on November 16, 2009, 12:29 pmBuddhism is a study... study of self.. your self and the mind

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Added on November 16, 2009, 12:29 pmthere is no such thing to fear.. but fear itself

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Added on November 16, 2009, 12:30 pmI would change the word best to suitable....



This post has been edited by Awakened_Angel: Nov 16 2009, 12:30 PM

"Religion is the sub of culture"

I think it's the other way round? Culture is a sub of religion. Christianity doesn't emerge from culture, isn't it？

The phrase they used when they say "god power" them, I think it's just a metaphor, what they meant is that the thought of God makes em energized? Lol I'm not a fan of self help books haha

the majority of the negative emotions like fear/doubt/aggression/selfishness/territorialism/etc are instinctual remnants of evolution (if you believe in it) they stem from the lower portion of the brain (the reptilian brain - as coined by carl sagan) and is vital for survival in less civilized times (it is still vital, now, in some extent) religion, as i see it, serve to control and channel this portion of the brain.

accordingly, on top of this "reptilian brain" is your logical and analytical "thinking brain" or the cerebrum. many decision making is a contest between these two brains. religion will no longer be needed if the upper brain is able to fully suppress the lower brain and thus controlling the negative emotions and urges. perhaps at this point, the human race would achieve some form of "enlightenment" as coined by some religion

No.. I studied sociology before... culture its like this...

culture got like age, sex, race, religion, school etc... all got each culture.... even same malay but different state got different cultural group....

and even me and my twin brother have different religion we have different religion cultural group... though we might share same cultural group like age, sex, race, family interest etc....

culture a group of people share same language, view on something, ritual symbol etc....

p/s ritual does not mean religious ritual... like MLM might have their ritual of shouting "yes we can"...
and their cultural symbol is their company name...
or, malay from Kl may have different style when eating when together with Kampung malay... even the slang is different...

it depends on how you subdivide people... and race is just one tiny puny part of it...

and one person have many many cultural group..

eg. I might belong to malaysian culture when I`m with korean buddhist etc... get it?

This post has been edited by Awakened_Angel: Nov 16 2009, 02:14 PM

Haha, i definitely agree there. Religion didn't create culture. Culture created religion & the person who made it fine-tuned it accordingly.

@f4te: asking about whether humans NEED religion has nothing to do with which religion is as you put it, 'best'. Look at the word "need" in the larger sense of the word. It's not like "I need my morning coffee" or "I need you in my life". Without that coffee/person, we CAN live but it's just something we have to grow above/ adjust to. We need religion like we need coffee. It helps us a lot and the world will be in an uproar if they lost coffee but we will live. Hence, we don't need coffee.

It's talking about our basic want to have something to believe in and whether we can live without it. If so, will we be better off in a moral/physical sense, etc...Am i right in presuming this is the direction you want this thread to go, TS?

smack down.... bingo....

but one thing wrong.. I need my coffee to make my day

True.. But I'm still quite convinced that not all religions are created by culture. But thanks for the heads on anyway, I understood what you meant



Yep, perfectly right. I'm quite prepared of that sort of sway over "religion classifications" or whatever we can put it, when I produced the statement on the best religion for me. But then, f4te's right over people's choices, human has the choice to need religion or not, and to need which religion. And come to think of the most suitable religion choices, I am not against preachers but I do detest preachings that classify other religions as second best of the one he is preaching about. As I did heard conversations and talks on different religions to compare before, I really don't like preachers who does not research on the normal philosophical questions the religion should answer - like "why we must worship this God?" "why are we created?" "why there are so many versions of this holy book if all are true?" "why do we have to pray?" "why must we eat kosher?" et cetera.

So here, we're not talking about which religion is best for you - that's up to you to do your homework. We're talking about whether we need religion or not. And if we do, should we follow the whole religious aspects of the religion, or just take some part of it and diffuse it with another to 'create' a suitable belief for us? Do we actually need to believe the sin-and-merit concept in every religion? And a lot more. What we need, is just to keep and open mind and keep comparing and comparing until we find the answer.

EDIT :

So here, I'm not talking about which religion is best for you - that's up to you to do your homework. I'm talking about whether human need religion or not. And if humans do, should they follow the whole religious aspects of the religion, or just take some part of it and diffuse it with another to 'create' a suitable belief for themselves? Do they actually need to believe the sin-and-merit concept in every religion? And a lot more. What everyone who is replying here need, is just to keep and open mind and keep comparing and comparing, not by making selfish assumptions etc.

This post has been edited by annariana: Nov 16 2009, 05:40 PM

I think you cant say something or come out with a conclusion that generalize and cover everyone...

Ahaha

Okay, wrong use of address. It's not a we

probably yes. religion has killed more people, started more wars than anything else.

religion is probably the only effective mechanism that successfully dupe humans to die, to make way for the stronger and the new.

much better than natural selection, what survival of the fittest blabs.

in this world, we need to have faith. Without it, life is pointless and meaningless.

for "real" intelligent being, one can "believe" the existence of God, but why the need of "religion"?

so, my answer is = for "real" intelligent being, no religion should be exist

for "below average" intelligent being, feel free to do so

Uhm...no. We don't need faith to give our life meaning. That in itself shows human weakness, the need to give meaning to things whether or not it is logical. They worshipped rocks and trees, remember? Modern day religion isn't very different. Then again, those animists could be right. Try looking within yourself to give your life meaning. Why do you have to look anywhere else? But i suppose it's a lot easier to have faith in something you can't see. Cause there is no way you can prove it's right, but it is unlikely it will be proven wrong either. I understand, honestly. Ignorance is bliss. However, our minds can only evolve in a forward motion, excluding conditions like Alzheimer's and amnesia. A person who has grasped this cannot revert to ignorance.

Agreed to some extent Though i wouldn't say no religion should exist. I personally differ intelligence from wisdom. Intelligent people could be very unwise. Like a quantum physicist who never pondered about life. He'd be an intelligent ignoramus But for people who do not even care to realize themselves, the easiest way to lead a meaningful life WOULD be through religion, however true it may be. Who are we to say, for as long as a person dies happy, i believe his purpose in life has been fulfilled. I'm a eudaimonist to an extent haha. & ignorance can be the easiest way to achieve happiness. The problem is, not everyone can be ignorant.

then, I will have to ask: what is the point of believing in god, if you don't believe in religion?

your statement shows that you regard anyone with a belief is stupid, i hope that i have misunderstood.

humans need to believe in something as much as they need to breath. And the belief is sometime, on something groundless and baseless, but as far as it served the purpose of giving a human something to hold onto, the ends, justify the means. but believing without a solid ground, will make you believe blindly.

IMHO, not believing in religion is in itself a new religion made by those 'really' intellectual being. and religion, as i defined it, is system of belief, a yardstick with which you measure your worldview, it tells you how you value something. and your belief, my friend, makes you see people with religion, i mean, a system of belief with a clear status or name, like a cow. with respect, even a cow don't need religion, because they only eat, sleep, and produce. as for us, my friend, we have mind, something that other creatures don't have. with that mind, you came to the conclusion-or are you just mocking the people who have reached the conclusion?- that there's god in our lives. My god, Allah, tells me to look to the sky, to the moon, the changing of night and days, death and life, was it all created for nothing?



and please, don't call other with religion as ignorance. some people have gone to a great length to find truth, searching for every facts and informations, learning and learning so they can be certain of their belief. saying that people with religion as ignorance or fools is like saying they hardwork and their struggle to search truth is worthless..cause in the end, the only right person is you, who believe that there's no need for religion.

And don't go blaming religion for human's mistake. religion is only a tool created by god so that human can easily understand his life and himself better. if a human decided to misuse it, is it really rational to blame the religion? it's like blaming the knife for letting itself being use to killed a person, rather than blaming the murderer who use the knife to kill other..don't you find that ridiculous?

religion regulates humans behaviour. that a part of its purpose, if a person don't follow a religion, then they will likely follow whatever they please. And do remember, communist don't believe in religion. so, what they do to people with religion? read the history of china. what do they follow? communism, which originated from karl marx idea. so, is it the idea that should be blame? or the human who used the idealism to justify they wrong actions?

an atheist once asked sayyidina Ali, "what if there's no god?
he, then, answered, " if there's no god, than i'm alright and you are not any better than me. but if there's god, i'm alright, but you're doomed"

with that, i rest my case.

This post has been edited by d_nabil: Nov 17 2009, 12:42 AM

Many people are certain they do not need understand what they can't understand because they are under the impression that they do not need solid Reason as long as they have good Faith, Blind Faith.

--Me
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/e...ml#fsaHO2ubAGZS

Read about my religion, einstein's religion....maybe u guys should consider join mine..haha...I dont believe personal God, but i believe there is God

Do we need religion??? Yes we do...But, morality should based on empathy or education but not fear of punishment or reward after life....However, isn't how most idiots become good with all this belief??? I couldn't imagine how the world would become or how the idiots would end up if they dont get something to believe in...LOL...Conclusion, it is up to us where to put our faith in...As long we are human, we are a bunch of fools, wasn't the faith that bring us this far???

This post has been edited by communist892003: Nov 17 2009, 02:10 AM

The prospect of a Greater being that listens, understands and rewards the good follower is comforting for some individuals. I wouldn't call them weak-willed, but rather they turn to this Higher being for the hope of answers and understanding when they come upon something they cannot explain or understand. It gives them hope and belief when the world around them seems bleak.
This reduces the amount of questions that they need to ask, as everything can be directed to the doings of this Greater Authority.

An example would be the origins of the Unverse. A physicist would go from "How the Earth was formed" to the seemingly impossible "What caused the Big Bang?"-ish questions while a firm believer of a god would point everything to his god and say "God created this wonderful world for us".

A good paradox I enjoy asking believers of God is the question, "Then what did God do before he created the Universe?"
And I've gotten all sorts of answers. One was that "God was busy battling Satan with the angels."

The ironic part of the paradox is that Lucifer (ala Satan) was an angel, the first and head of the angels of God. So, if such is true, then what was he doing then? I'd like to think that they chill out playing Guitar Hero and Pool. Maybe some wine, we Christians seem to like it.

think about it, if you dont have religion, what place is there for "god"?

true, and religion shall still have its purpose for humanity so long as humanity is unable to find a solid "base" within itself. certain portion have already (according to them) found such a base, as for them religion is meaningless.

on the opposite, i look at creation and the universe and at such a cosmic scale and timeline, i have concluded that humanity in general is really nothing in that scale. to believe that we hold some special place in the universe is pure arrogance.

did you just stereotyped atheist=communist?

dear god, not pascal's wager again. at the surface it seemed a solid argument, but think about it deeper, its the worst logical argument for religion, ever.

---

Added on November 17, 2009, 4:30 amoh, please do elaborate

This post has been edited by lin00b: Nov 17 2009, 04:30 AM

It's very rude of you to stereotype that way. Intelligence has nothing to do with religion. And the statement you just put up, it will certainly disturb a lot of people who believed in religion. Please stay out of this thread if you tend to produce that kind of indirect insult. If you just want to highlight that you don't need religion, just do so, and no such statements like if-you-believe-in-religion-your-intelligence-is-below-average.

In my opinion, the concept of God and religion are inseparable. If you believe in God, you're believing in religion.

Finally, someone who knows his religion voice out his opinion. I couldn't agree more. No offense, friends, but I know too many of 'religious' people who rebel at the sight of this question, but when they voice out their opinion, they don't seem to know their own religion to retaliate.

As for the quote from Ali, he actually meant that God's existence is something we don't know and will never be proven in physical research. It's something we don't know, so being religious is actually a safe way to see life. Because, if God really exist an we don't believe in God, we're doomed. Friend, please find another more concrete quote as this is actually pretty abstract. I remember Dalai Lama quoted something really 'wow' from Ali's Nahjul Balaghah once, Google up whenever you may

Religion is a way of life, it's purpose is to regulate humans behaviour. I'd like to add something. Religion is something you don't follow blindly, even though it looked so nice from the outside. Every religion promotes good values, but which one is the true one religion? They can't be all true. So, I would like to stress the importance to question, question and question every religion, until you find the one that can answer all your question, and the one you'll never regret to make your way of life.




Yes, they has to be stereotyped, as communism ideologies absolutely denies religion.

In 1920, Lenin formulated the Bolshevik golden rule. He said, "Whatever helps the world Communist revolution is good; whatever hinders it is bad. Religion, through its insistence upon individual responsibility to the Creator of all things, interferes with the advance of world collectivism. It is, therefore, irredeemably evil."3 Listen to "Comrade" E. Yaroslavsky, in his book, Religion in the U. S. S. R.: "Remember that the struggle against religion is a struggle for socialism."4 Again, "The program of the Communist International also clearly states that Communists fight against religion…"5

From Communism And Modern Religion.

still, till now I cant comprehend this concept

"why God created human to worhip him then in the end judge them and send them to heaven or hell"

and again, IF human are to rejoice with god, and we eventually die, why bother about judgement day? isnt judgement day tomorrow the same as I`ll die of accident tomorrow?

Good question

Imma gonna Google this.

Example:

A = below average intelligent/wisdom people
B = "real" intelligent/wisdom people
C = someone with religious "power/authority"

Religion = system with rules/regulations related to super being. And also with certain people "delegated" with "power/authority" from this super being to "guide" the all people.

---

Scenario #1:

C tell the mass of A: God is unhappy/lonely, it said to me yesterday we should make him feel better. Therefore everynight I will pick 1 of the female from us, to spend night in the [whatever] room to appease the god.

Religion rule: trust C with upmost loyalty, else you are infidelity

Typical end result:
- A do as told.
- B.... what the hell....don't give a damn.


Scenario #2:

Some soldier/low rank of personnel of X religion: My Great C, the religion Y has denied to bow to us, claimed that religion supposed to be free-will and bla bla bla bullzhit....

C: What! How dare are them! Well, I will amass of peasants to form the God army to smash these infifelity!

Religion rule: trust C with upmost loyalty, else you are infidelity

Typical end result:
- A do as told, X war Y.
- B.... what the hell....don't give a damn.

---

Scenario 3:

.... do you really still want to give more "real" examples?
What? How old are you?

Actually, we're not talking about religious politics here dear friend. We're talking about religion, as in spiritual relativity. And people from the B genre, they do give a damn about this when C bullies A. Not all Bs are religiously and politically ignorant, you know.

The As always stereotypes religious people as manipulative authoritarian, that's why they always follows what the Cs say. So don't think like the As. Think like a B - do not stereotype, and see the true meaning of God before believing human's army as God's army. And B will usually rebel and fight for truce and truth, they don't just say "what the hell, i don't give a damn".

If you're taking Crusades as an example, please read up on Third Crusades. Pope + Henry = C, the crusade army/ people = A, Saladin + Richard The Lionheart = B. Do they say give a damn and set a treaty to overcome orders from the C? Yes, they do give a damn. Please analyse real life situation according to real examples, when you give out arguments like this.

Does age bothers you? I'm 19.

This post has been edited by annariana: Nov 17 2009, 09:30 AM

So that the experience of existentialism can be fulfilled?

Duh.

friend.. don`t google.. please... use your reason to reason... when you google, you will be the same... read people`s thinking and adapt to it.. its like read holy book and brainwash your brain to fit in

I wanted to give different opinions, and let you choose which one suits you the best

Well, if it's according to my logic, I'll explain it using the theory of God as the creator. God is called God because of his superiority. So, there is no such thing as to question why we must worship him. Its like you having pets, pets obey what you say because you're superior. But then, the difference from those pets and us is that we can think, and pets don't. It's up to us to think, investigate and find proofs, how can God be more superior than us? Whats the proof of his superiority?

That way, you'll find the answer. I'm not gonna elaborate this is as I have limited perspectives on different religions, on whats their theory of God. Only pretty literate in revealed religions. So I'm now googling on what non-revealed religions has to say about this.

Google this one:

Existentialism.

Personally, I believe God created life for that reason, although the word existentialism is merely a word coined in order to describe something that humanity has not fully grasped yet.

So I can be wrong.

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Nov 17 2009, 10:26 AM

Sorry friend, I am not really keen into this particular theory. Had a lot of this in Albert Camus' works, and existentialism denies religion over freedom. I believe that humanity needs both religion and freedom, or else there will be no control over morality.

Sorry if I offended you, but I think this theory is radical and somewhat outdated. I do respect human individuality, believed in it. But then this theory may cause over assertiveness in the concept of individuality and freedom, and there are no control factor when someone became too individual.

That's because you didn't know existentialism does not necessarily has to reject religion into its equation.

There are existentialists that accept religion, but just like the case of communism, existentialism rejects religion in it's fundamental concept. Concrete human existence = totally against the theory of creation in religions.

Do you know what is existentialism in the first place?

And when you said "the theory of creation in religions", what do you mean?

Of course I do mate, I studied philosophy as a sub in college. Or else I won't reply at all LOL.

The theory of creation in religion points that God is the creator of everything in the world. Total superiority. That's why, Darwinism is against religion, so are existentialism. I remember Sarte/ Satre whoever stated that "existence precedes essence". This theory, totally denies religion. And actually, existentialism has a very close knit with Marxism. I remember reading Das Kapital and comparing it with Satre's work, it really looked like Marxism is existentialism in practical. And my accusations are true, as if you read about Satre's life, he is actually a supporter of Marxism.

Why do I say existentialism is outdated? Existentialism is not the same as other philosophies, it is actually a cultural movement caused by post-World War difficulties. Then how about new existentialism? New existentialism are all about scientific practices in truth-tracking, and so are the classical theory of self-making being converted in terms of making choices. Religion, is not all about scientific practices, it is something beyond that. Thus, I don't think existentialism can be used in making choices whether you need or you don't need religion - it is against religion itself.

Let me ask you.

Why do some existentialists believe in religion?

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Nov 17 2009, 11:37 AM

Those kind of existentialists do not believe in religion, they believe in spirituality. Religion and spirituality are 2 different things.

Edit : I did said that there are some existentialist that believe in religion. This is one wrong statement, as they actually only believe in spirituality. Pardon my mistakes.

This post has been edited by annariana: Nov 17 2009, 11:51 AM

How is that spirituality cannot be related to religion itself? Or at least, related to a particular Deity?

IF one day, science can measure the intensity and existance of soul as measuring heat, temperature, would religion exist as in faith in god?

---

Added on November 17, 2009, 12:00 pmagain... google this also...

" If god existed all this while, why he suddenly change his mind and created human? was he lonely?? and after judgement day... what`s next?

people would enjoice in heaven eternally with god while some suffer in hell with satan for eternity?? "

does this make any senses??

This post has been edited by Awakened_Angel: Nov 17 2009, 12:00 PM

I don't say that religion and spirituality are not related, I just said that spirituality and religion are both different things. Religion is a system of structured belief. It has their specific and clear concept of God, leaded by a divine source like holy books etc. While spirituality is more into self realizations. You get spiritual by defining your own God and seeking for a peace of mind, using your own logic and feel. Pure spirituality does not consider religion to find your own God nor seeking peace of mind, they purely seek for redemption by ways like meditation and mixed up God theories.

There are aspects of spirituality in religion. Spirituality in religion are guided self realizations to find your God, and to seek the truth and peace of mind. The spirituality are guided by the religion itself. But then, pure spirituality has no religion in it. All are based on rationality and logic, which might be wrong. Thus, pure spirituality are not related to any particular deity, unlike spirituality in religion.

Dude,

I'll get back to you later. Philosophy needs thinking too ya LOL

try to think as if you are not a Muslim....

cheers

Mate, it's really hard to think without referring to a certain category of religions as this involves very different concepts of God. But this is what I think, in logic. Again I refer God as something superior.

Superior Meaning and Definition

1. (a.) Belonging to the part of an axillary flower which is toward the main stem; posterior.
2. (a.) More elevated in place or position; higher; upper; as, the superior limb of the sun; the superior part of an image.
3. (a.) More comprehensive; as a term in classification; as, a genus is superior to a species.
4. (a.) Higher in rank or office; more exalted in dignity; as, a superior officer; a superior degree of nobility.
5. (a.) Above the ovary; -- said of parts of the flower which, although normally below the ovary, adhere to it, and so appear to originate from its upper part; also of an ovary when the other floral organs are plainly below it in position, and free from it.
6. (n.) The head of a monastery, convent, abbey, or the like.
7. (a.) Beyond the power or influence of; too great or firm to be subdued or affected by; -- with to.
8. (a.) Pointing toward the apex of the fruit; ascending; -- said of the radicle.
9. (n.) One who is above, or surpasses, another in rank, station, office, age, ability, or merit; one who surpasses in what is desirable; as, Addison has no superior as a writer of pure English.
10. (a.) Higher or greater in excellence; surpassing others in the greatness, or value of any quality; greater in quality or degree; as, a man of superior merit; or of superior bravery.

In other words, God as a deity - Deity - Monotheism

"In some cases, especially the monotheistic Abrahamic god or the supreme deity of henotheistic religions, the divine entity is not thought of by some believers in the same terms as deities - as a powerful, anthropomorphic supernatural being - but rather becomes esoteric, the reification of a philosophical category - the Ultimate, the Absolute Infinite, the Transcendent, the One, the All, Existence, or Being itself, the ground of being, the monistic substrate, etc."


Thus, as God is the Ultimate, the Absolute Infinite et cetera, he is not the same as us. He is more superior than human, means he does not have feelings like being lonely, sad, horny, constipated et cetera. Give this example a thought : if God can feel lonely, of course he is the same like us as we feel lonely too. If we can shit, of course God can shit too right? If we can die, God dies too right? OMG your God dies

Of course God don't feel lonely, as he couldn't shit or he couldn't die. He is the ultimate, the most supreme, that's why human call him God. Thus the statement of "God created us because he is lonely" does not fill in the criterias why we must call him God. And you know, if we kinda think of it, God doesn't have a son too, because God doesn't have sex, he's different and more supreme than us. No offense to Christians, but I used to question a lot of religions including mine.

Okay, lets not stray away. The main question is actually, why God created us to worship him?


Answers later. I'm trying my best to think like an atheist now LOL.

---

Added on November 17, 2009, 4:12 pmReferring to my previous post, let me explain the "atheistic opinion" on Why Must We Worship God.

Come to the concept of worship. In every religion, it is stated that we should worship God because of LOVE.
1. God loves us
2. We should love God too

What's the proof that God loves us?
1. The universal, cliched opinion : He created the universe for us, we should be grateful for that
2. Even though a lot of us don't believe in him, he still provide oxygen, a place to live in, not much physical threats like once-you-dont-pray-then-say-goodbye-to-life

And did it ever occured to us that we should love God back too? Who are we to expect all comforts from someone who loves us without us loving back in return? God isn't being tyrannical. He is being loving, he loves us too much and he wanted to be loved back. Sounds so humanistic for you? Let me tell you something, every religion stated that God loves us. That does not mean that the love is to spoil. There is a proverb in Bahasa Melayu, heck I can't find the equivalent in English "sayang anak tangan tangankan"。 When you love your kid, be stern with him, to teach him to be human. Let us balance this proverb in this case. God loves us too much, that he taught us to love him back, even threaten us with hell to stop us to find other Gods. This is not arrogance, this is pure Godly love. Even though a lot of human does not believe in him, he still pampers them with life, just that he showed a lot of signs and threats (hell, doom etc), so that we don't stray away from loving him. So different from humanly love.

Then, why do he created us in the first place? I'd say that he created us to find is there any of us that will love him back. This is why the concept of heaven/ nirvana is there, that's the reward for people who loved him back. How to love him back? Worship him, simple. It's like showing your love to a boyfriend, just that you don't show your boobs to prove your love, you show your prayer to love him.

And then, why, after all the worshipping, God still give us hard times like recession, tsunami, high crime rates etc?
1. This is because God wants us to love him more. When we underwent hard times in this world, we'll pray more. Prayers works spiritually, it calms you down, and you feel supported by 'something' (you'd know this if you really meditated before). The 'something' is God. God loves to be loved. I know this rationale is very abstract, but then theology itself is one abstract thing that it's really hard to think the other way round and try to answer the opposite
2. Those crimes, are caused by people who does not obey God. It's like mothering a kid. A mother set up rules and regulations for a child, e.g don't cross the road before looking left and right. But then when the child disobeys, fatal endings. It's the same on this case. God set up religion and regulations for us e.g be honest, don't steal etc. But then when we did the opposite, crime rates soared high and the world is not a better place for us.

So friends, these are what I think about why must we worship God. Correct me if you guys saw any loopholes, I know this is waaay abstract, it's not an easy question too, ya know

This post has been edited by annariana: Nov 17 2009, 04:12 PM

ok.. we got a problem.. no matter how we see it god still stuck with concept in religion...

let`s do this... erase the meaning of god from religion perspective... and now GOD is just an empty word with no meaning that will used to define existencism....

and look from science view big bang etc... can the word god fit in?

If you really researched before, you'll find that something as abstract like God can't be proven using science. or in other words pure humanity or existentialism.

Yeah, God is an empty word with no meaning if you minus religion AND spirituality. But then, even behavorial sciences stated that it is natural for all humans to believe in God, whether they're atheists or not, it's in human's nature. Just that they denies the feeling of having God around because they can't prove it scientifically nor rationale-minus-spirituality.

I think it is natural for us to rely on something to calm ourselves down - the need of spirituality. How to overcome the need of spirituality? Religion is the answer. But then people who feels that following a certain terms and condition in religion is lame, they'll opt for spirituality only instead.

But then, I think there are so many blank parts of spirituality, if practised without religion. I'll be very ignorant if I go all spiritual - yoga, meditation etc, without being able to answer philosophical questions about life e.g why we're created?, that is missing in spirituality alone.

This post has been edited by annariana: Nov 17 2009, 05:00 PM

I think it is human nature to wonder and be curious about the world... and many accepted GOD as they think they want to be part of this big thing.....

buddha said it is useless to know how we started... what matter is now and future... its like a man hit with posion arrow... its useless to know who hit you, from which direction, what poison etc.. what matter is to withdraw the arrow and heal you from the venom

They can't all be true. They all claim to be true. Then wouldn't picking the right one be a matter of luck? And with shitty luck you get eternal damnation. How nice... Oh, & seriously Pascal's wager is stupid. I could start a new belief that if you believe in God, you will go to hell. Why? Maybe there's some superior being that may be god or aliens that emphasise the ability to be realistic. Hence, you phail, you go to Hell. Pascal's basing his wager on the thought that there are only 2 sides to death.

Btw, Communist=Atheist does not mean Atheist=Communist.

Rofl, now that's being passed on as an obvious fact? The boundaries of Human reason do not consolidate the need for faith. The want, maybe.

But yeah, i accept that a majority of ppl believe in God. I do, too. I just don't believe in the teachings here on Earth. I think an omnipotent God should have no qualms with not being worshipped. I mean, i mean no offence here but...Isn't that narcissistic and arrogant? Creating humans to worship Him or be damned. My friend explained to me that God has the right to feel that way cause He is God. Tyranny, anyone? She then continued to compare God to a Father & how he deserves his children's love cause well, he created them. Whether or not a father deserves his children's love, damning them for not submitting is just plain... It sounds like a very humane God to me. That is not the God i believe in.

I like that quote, will certainly come out in my future essays LOL I like Buddhism philosophies. This one is in the 四圣諦 right? But then, I found some contradiction in 八正道, as the first of the 8 ways, is actually about acquiring right understanding on our originations. Correct me if I'm wrong la hor, I don't read so much in these kinda philosophies.

But then, I think it's worth to know how I started, it's some sort of enigma I can't seem to let go

---

Added on November 17, 2009, 6:14 pmYou make your God sounds very complicated LOL Well I do respect that, but then to me, I think my God don't act like human, he acts way superior than that. The way he love us is just different. That's why I think over the philosophy of worshipping God before accepting. Why? I think if God doesn't make religion exist with aspects like hell, threatening etc, human will be uncontrollable. Same as having religion without believing in God, they'll be like why-cant-i-kill-people-whats-the-worst-will-happen-to-me-huh sorta argument. Plus, I don't think I'm in any place higher than him to blame God for being arrogant and narcissistic.

And yes, communist = atheist, but atheist are not necessarily communist. Anybody?

Picking the right religion is not a matter of luck, it's comparison and a lot of thinking. So everybody has the chance to avoid 'eternal damnation', unless if they're ignorant and just wait for something to show up. I don't agree on the wager though - it made people follow religion blindly. I'd rather compare and contrast and find the most logical explanation of everything in those handfuls of religions.

This post has been edited by annariana: Nov 17 2009, 06:35 PM

u just offend ur country... we hav a moon on our flag..u know wat religion is tht?
hm..if without, how you get merry?

This post has been edited by taitianhin: Nov 17 2009, 06:17 PM

SORRY.... My mandarin not that good...

If you want to learn buddhism, try theravada..more ori. the chinese buddhism is extended version

what buddha coin as world is the world created by our 5 senses... not earth, star, sky, water etc...

sky do not exist if you cant see it...

see this link on how the thoughts arises in your mind

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/depend.htm

I have been reading it for quite sometime and still cant grasp it.... hope you get it...

Ya hor, Rukun Negara.

Regard this as a normal conversation lah No need to be so rigid one LOL I'm not promoting you guys to be atheists!

one thing... why malaysian flag follow USA flags of red and white stripes??

Coincidental?

honestly, looking at all (actually i only bothered to read few only, but just "literally" for the wording) of these arquments, as long as human cannot do apart from "politic" within society, religion will never be in any form of good shape or faith.

looking at the future (with a bit imagination), those sci-fi AI or robot will probably do much better than human (if still sticking with politic zhit), and better with human be controlled (like controlling a wild beast) or terminated (virus should be removed).