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Science Future Cities On Earth, Will we go underwater or to the clouds?

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TSfrags
post Nov 13 2009, 02:50 PM, updated 17y ago

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Based on recent scientific finding on climate change and the rising of the oceans, projections show that huge proportions of our planet will be covered in water

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8357537.stm

QUOTE
For the period 2000-2008, melting Greenland ice raised sea levels by an average of about 0.46mm per year.

If you multiply these numbers up it puts us well beyond the IPCC estimates for 2100 
Professor Roger Barry

Since 2006, that has increased to 0.75mm per year.
"Since 2000, there's clearly been an accelerating loss of mass [from the ice sheet]," said lead researcher Michiel van den Broeke from Utrecht University in the Netherlands.


Based on projections on human population and this rising of the ocean, it can be speculated that land space will be limited. This would mean we must find new space for our population.

There is two possibilities that I can see(this is inspired by sci fi, that much I admit). One is a cloud city(akin to coruscant in Star Wars). We have had plenty of experience building upwards and having a city in the skies(with our very own flying cars to transport us around) is viable.

The other is a city under the ocean(most recently as seen in the video game bioshock). Of course these carry plenty of added complexity as we must deal with the immense pressure exerted by the depths of the ocean.

This is before we build space colonies(as that technology to do so will be much further down the line). I'm sure there are plenty of write ups about underwater cities and cloud cities. I'll try to find some when I'm free.

So what do you think? Which is more practical? Based on your understanding of engineering and how we can farm our food(artificial lights source for underwater cities to farm vegetables). Also keep in mind we need an energy source too for these cities.


Will we build an underwater utopia?
user posted image

Or will we emulate George Lucas's idea of the Cloud City?
user posted image
Please share any links to any article you find that is relevant.

PS : I know I'm making a huge speculation that the earth will indeed be mostly underwater in the future. But just play along with this for this thread.

This post has been edited by frags: Nov 13 2009, 03:10 PM
TSfrags
post Nov 13 2009, 02:56 PM

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This sites talks a bit about underwater cities:
http://davidszondy.com/future/underwater/colonies.htm

This is what I found interesting:

QUOTE
But in reality, the colonisation of the sea never got much further than this: the occasional undersea habitat where divers stayed for a few days or weeks at most.  Today, there are only two operating in the entire world, but in the '60s and '70s there were more than seventy habitats operated by the US, Germany, France, the USSR, Canada, Poland, and Great Britain.

One, the Sealab programme shown here, was a major effort by the U. S. Navy, which the general public and many of those working on it thought was an effort to rival the Moon landings.  But the Sealab programme didn't fare much better than the Apollo programme.  After a fatal accident in 1969, the third and last of the Sealabs was closed down.  Years later, after the end of the Cold War, it was learned  that the Navy had little or no interest in colonising the seabed.  For them, Sealab was really a way to train their divers for a much more important task: deep diving to tap Soviet telephone cables off the coast of Kamchatka to intercept secret communications.

Yet why did enthusiasm for undersea habitats die out?  Part of the reason was that working on the habitats taught people many things.  One of these is that the sea is not a damp Plymouth Rock; it is a dangerous place where work is hard and slow, where you had to live with everything being constantly soggy,  where the exotic gas mixtures made you sound like Donald Duck, and where the pressure made it impossible to smoke, drink alcohol or soda, eat spicy foods, or even enjoy a boiled egg.  In the end, it became clear that the sea is not a place for settlement, it is an alien world to be cautiously visited.

TSfrags
post Nov 13 2009, 03:00 PM

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Sky city 1000. It has to be said that the purpose of this Japanese idea was to reduce congestion but still pretty relevant to our topic of lack of land space in the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_City_1000

QUOTE
Sky City 1000 is a possible future urban supertall skyscraper project aimed at helping put an end to major congestion and lack of greenspace in the Tokyo, Japan metropolitan area.

The plan consists of a building 1,000 metres (3,281 ft) tall and 400 m (1,312 ft) wide at the base, and a total floor area of 8 km2 (3.1 sq mi).[2] The design, proposed in 1989 by Takenaka Corporation, would house between 35,000[2][3] and 36,000[4] full-time residents, as well as 100,000 workers. It comprises 14 concave dish-shaped "Space Plateaus" stacked one upon the other. The interior of the plateaus would contain greenspace, and on the edges, on the sides of the building, would be the apartments. Also included in the building would be offices, commercial facilities, schools, theatres, and other modern amenities.[2]


This post has been edited by frags: Nov 13 2009, 04:12 PM
ZeratoS
post Nov 13 2009, 04:09 PM

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The idea of an underwater utopia would be highly attractive, albiet very unconventional. Considering the implications that would occur should technical mishaps occur, I shudder to think of the consequences.

Going up would be more plausible, although one does have to consider the wind hmm.gif
SUSslimey
post Nov 13 2009, 08:28 PM


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keeping something in the air requires a lot of energy unless using something similar to balloon filled with gas lighter than air and ultralight and strong structure. other concern is stability.
keeping something in water might be easier with current technology but the environment of water is can be very harsh any anything wrong with air supply system, leakage, can be a big problem.

an easier solution is a floating city as explained here:
www.howstuffworks.com/floating-city
Awakened_Angel
post Nov 13 2009, 09:09 PM

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QUOTE(frags @ Nov 13 2009, 03:50 PM)
here is two possibilities that I can see(this is inspired by sci fi, that much I admit). One is a cloud city(akin to coruscant in Star Wars). We have had plenty of experience building upwards and having a city in the skies(with our very own flying cars to transport us around) is viable.

*
I see another option?? underground.. which mean under the surface of ocean... yes... when everything is submerge in water, and we might still live underground..........

again... no matter where we go, the question of resources...

1) O2
2) sunlight?

or can be like microbs.... harvesting energy through chemical reaction instead of sun hmm.gif
TSfrags
post Nov 13 2009, 09:27 PM

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QUOTE(Awakened_Angel @ Nov 13 2009, 09:09 PM)
I see another option?? underground.. which mean under the surface of ocean... yes... when everything is submerge in water, and we might still live underground..........

again... no matter where we go, the question of resources...

1) O2
2) sunlight?

or can be like microbs.... harvesting energy through chemical reaction instead of sun  hmm.gif
*
Underground cities have the possibility of harvesting their energy from geothermal means. Right from the core of the planet. I was thinking an underwater city could harvest fishes. Yes modern day fisherman go out of the tubes of the city to catch fish in their fishing submarines.

An underground city(even under water) has added complexity of needing to block the water from entering the entrance to the underground passage to the city. But an underground city on the surface? That's pretty viable as we see in all those post apocalyptic sci fi stuff. Only problem is the entrance to the city might get submerged.

Why worry about sun light? We can find an artificial light source to allow growth of plants(this needs an experiment). Which will also mean you need to use more energy unfortunately.

This post has been edited by frags: Nov 13 2009, 09:31 PM
Awakened_Angel
post Nov 14 2009, 08:42 AM

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as sunlight is considered to be a source which is almost unlimited.... while alternate source is a souce what we need to generate.....
ZeratoS
post Nov 15 2009, 04:02 AM

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Though, I am concerned about the reactions towards lack of sunlight. I for one dislike being cooped up for so long with no exposure to the sun. Now how would we combat said problem given that we were to build underground/underwater living quarters.
Awakened_Angel
post Nov 15 2009, 10:36 AM

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QUOTE(ZeratoS @ Nov 15 2009, 05:02 AM)
Though, I am concerned about the reactions towards lack of sunlight. I for one dislike being cooped up for so long with no exposure to the sun. Now how would we combat said problem given that we were to build underground/underwater living quarters.
*
yes.. this is the problem that I think og.. the side effect of total dependent on artificial habitat.. artificial light etc...

what would you feel if you live in city and the only source is from ceiling light, wind from fan, air from ventilation? instead of FRESH AIR? naturally?

I think every city folks would need that.... after hours of work in office...


Added on November 15, 2009, 10:39 am
QUOTE(ZeratoS @ Nov 15 2009, 05:02 AM)
Though, I am concerned about the reactions towards lack of sunlight. I for one dislike being cooped up for so long with no exposure to the sun. Now how would we combat said problem given that we were to build underground/underwater living quarters.
*
yes.. this is the problem that I think og.. the side effect of total dependent on artificial habitat.. artificial light etc...

what would you feel if you live in city and the only source is from ceiling light, wind from fan, air from ventilation? instead of FRESH AIR? naturally?

I think every city folks would need that.... after hours of work in office...

for example, from my experience.. recently, after wholeday facing PC, and I feel bit "sick" as in had enough of it and nausea and need some fresh air... so I went outswide my hosue for fresh air.. then I observe the trees and then look at my house... there I realise this.. the tree, flower etc... makes me feel alive.. while looking at my house.. even its nicely decorated and with colourful paints, it is dead

that is this called medically? any doc?

This post has been edited by Awakened_Angel: Nov 15 2009, 10:39 AM
BillySteel
post Nov 15 2009, 01:33 PM

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Floating cities would be a more viable option before technology allows us to live in air.....

Living in both underwater and and at altitudes posses pressure problem and various other problems like energy resources...
ZeratoS
post Nov 15 2009, 06:39 PM

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QUOTE(BillySteel @ Nov 15 2009, 01:33 PM)
Floating cities would be a more viable option before technology allows us to live in air.....

Living in both underwater and and at altitudes posses pressure problem and various other problems like energy resources...
*
Generating resources are hardly the matter. The problem lies with humans coping with the change in surroundings. Try sitting in the dark for a week and see how you react to sunlight after said week.
TSfrags
post Nov 15 2009, 07:48 PM

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QUOTE(ZeratoS @ Nov 15 2009, 06:39 PM)
Generating resources are hardly the matter. The problem lies with humans coping with the change in surroundings. Try sitting in the dark for a week and see how you react to sunlight after said week.
*
Well based on what we've been doing with the International Space Station, I think humans could cope with a change in environment. But yes they were trained astronauts, what happens to untrained people put in depressing dank conditions like the bottom of the ocean or underground?

Possible increase in suicide rates? hmm.gif
Awakened_Angel
post Nov 15 2009, 08:39 PM

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QUOTE(ZeratoS @ Nov 15 2009, 07:39 PM)
Try sitting in the dark for a week and see how you react to sunlight after said week.
*
don`t have to go to that level...yet

just try to live your days without HP, PC, internet and watches... for few days.... smile.gif

see what do you feel
bgeh
post Nov 15 2009, 08:42 PM

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Erm, it is highly unlikely that the Earth will be covered in water from the melting of ice sheets - think someone's done the maths and assumed that if all the ice sheets in Greenland and Antartica melted, the sea level will rise by about 65-80 metres. Sure that's enough to cover a heck lotta land, but there still will be plenty left.

As for flying cities, well it's highly unlikely because we'd need some source of energy to keep it 'flying', unless we get to find some really low-density, but of high structural integrity to build such a city with, which looks highly unlikely really. Ditto with underwater cities, with the problem being keeping the water out.

So the premise of the post isn't true a priori. As to how likely such a city will be built, or whether there'll exist a need for such a city to be built in say the next 100 years, considering the challenges we have now? Extremely unlikely

QUOTE
yes.. this is the problem that I think og.. the side effect of total dependent on artificial habitat.. artificial light etc...

what would you feel if you live in city and the only source is from ceiling light, wind from fan, air from ventilation? instead of FRESH AIR? naturally?

I think every city folks would need that.... after hours of work in office...

for example, from my experience.. recently, after wholeday facing PC, and I feel bit "sick" as in had enough of it and nausea and need some fresh air... so I went outswide my hosue for fresh air.. then I observe the trees and then look at my house... there I realise this.. the tree, flower etc... makes me feel alive.. while looking at my house.. even its nicely decorated and with colourful paints, it is dead

that is this called medically? any doc?
Er, no, the problem is you have associated these things to 'natural things'. Your definition of 'fresh air', 'natural' might change if you were born under the sea and lived there for all your life, which is something you did not account for.

This post has been edited by bgeh: Nov 15 2009, 08:50 PM
ZeratoS
post Nov 15 2009, 10:10 PM

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QUOTE(Awakened_Angel @ Nov 15 2009, 08:39 PM)
don`t have to go to that level...yet

just try to live your days without HP, PC, internet and watches... for few days....  smile.gif

see what do you feel
*
My hand would start twitching by the 2nd day and maybe some spasms after that laugh.gif
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post Nov 18 2009, 03:52 PM

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Wait...if our Earth is gonna be flooded with water and we move into the skies or underwater...what about O2 supply? We still need plants to generate O2 and if we lose all land n there's no way to generate O2 we will be doomed.
ZeratoS
post Nov 18 2009, 09:18 PM

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QUOTE(ZanoCanez @ Nov 16 2009, 10:31 PM)
In my opinion,floating cities(on water,not air) are indeed much easier to realize then floating or underwater cities.Cloud cities would need a constant source of energy.Not to mention the hazards of such cities.One wrong calculation and you're done.

Humans aren't fish and we aren't supposed to live underwater.Complications,maybe even death could occur unless humans could construct a total replica of the outside world.

Floating cities would probably be the best choice right now,considering our current technology.Even untrained people could live on top if something catastrophic like 2012 happens.Provided that you don't have sea sickness sweat.gif
*
How would said propulsion system run and be mantained? shocking.gif I don't think we're that capable yet?
ZeratoS
post Nov 18 2009, 10:22 PM

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QUOTE(ZanoCanez @ Nov 18 2009, 10:05 PM)
Basically its like living on a huge ship,right? sweat.gif
I don't see the need for giant floating cities to move around a lot.
Maybe they would just anchor down at a safe spot and use smaller ships to transport necessities.
*
OH. Floating on water..

I was thinking Star Wars-esque floating in the sky cities lul.
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post Nov 19 2009, 12:29 AM

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QUOTE(ZanoCanez @ Nov 18 2009, 10:28 PM)
Sky cities would pose a problem or two.
As I mentioned earlier,one miscalculation and your city is gone.Not to mention the technology and source of energy needed to maintain it.

Like in the movie 2012(I trust you've seen it),humans built monstrous arks instead of choosing airplanes and what-nots.Almost the same as deciding which city is more suitable to build and live on.
*
Idea of a city in the sky is rather interesting. But back to reality, can such a structure be supported sufficiently by its foundation? Even if the moment of inertia it has is very high. Moreover, at higher altitude, the building will be subjected to even stronger winds.

Of the proposed alternatives, i suppose underground city (not the underwater version) is more viable. But like its counterpart submerged underwater city, it has the problem of ventilation and sunlight.

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