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 HDMI Cable Quality?, Really make a diffrent?

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jchong
post Dec 3 2009, 05:14 PM

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QUOTE(DigitalTech @ Dec 3 2009, 03:50 PM)
Just to clarify my standing and credibility as a Monster cable online seller, I am getting the stocks from an authorised Monster reseller in the US. They are getting the stock directly from Monster Cable in California.
*
Thanks for clarifying your position in this matter and where you get your stock from.
jchong
post Dec 3 2009, 05:28 PM

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Just got an email informing about QED HDMI cable sale.

Buy 2 QED New Performance HDMI cable for GBP60: http://www.hificables.co.uk/11632/Qed-NEW-...ance-HDMI-.html
TrynRex
post Dec 3 2009, 06:13 PM

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Sorry, but I tot all HDMI cables are the same PQ and AQ dis-regard of the brand (for short length) and it was stated in the net. HDMI cables are digital signal. Why is ppl still buying expensive cables? No offence but just want to understand ppl's thinking.
neb
post Dec 3 2009, 06:35 PM

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all HDMI cable should not have problem functioning at short cable length

but for longer cable, proper cable construction need to be observed, just like for example the networking cable cat 5 has more twist in the cable than cat 3 to reduce crosstalk between wire pair so that the operation frequency can reach 100MHz.
Scud_eSpade
post Dec 3 2009, 06:58 PM

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Im an engineer in HDMI industry.
Let me clarify something. Not all HDMI are the same. HDMI are operated at Ghz frequency. It affects the resistance and conductance of the copper. Even loose connector does affect the transmission. To pass the HDMI certification test, manufacturer have to pass the eye pattern/diagram that are determine by the spec.

There are 2 category of the test.
Category 1 - equivalent to 720p or 1080i (74.5 MHz)
Category 2 - more than enough for 1080p (340 MHz)

a cable vendor can designate a cable as Category 1 or 2, but cannot specify a lower bandwidth, and consequently, all HDMI 1.3 compliance testing is done at at least 720p/1080i frequencies.

In case of Category 1 certified cable:
For high qualty cable, u should be able to transmit data without any error on 1080p device.
For a low quality cable, u must be very lucky for it to works on 1080p (yes, it can work)


Why? because no test to certify that the cable able to operate at least 1080p. Those low quality cable might just barely pass the test. You can buy certified category 2 cable to be sure. But of coz, prepare to pay more

hope this help
neb
post Dec 3 2009, 07:26 PM

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for those who are interested in HDMI cable contruction :
QUOTE
24-28AWG shielded twisted pair, and twisted pair stranded with a master foil and braid shield
for higer bandwidth, we need to go optic-fibre

This post has been edited by neb: Dec 3 2009, 07:29 PM
anfieldude
post Dec 3 2009, 07:33 PM

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QUOTE(Scud_eSpade @ Dec 3 2009, 06:58 PM)
Im an engineer in HDMI industry.
Let me clarify something. Not all HDMI are the same. HDMI are operated at Ghz frequency. It affects the resistance and conductance of the copper. Even loose connector does affect the transmission. To pass the HDMI certification test, manufacturer have to pass the eye pattern/diagram that are determine by the spec.

There are 2 category of the test.
Category 1 - equivalent to 720p or 1080i (74.5 MHz)
Category 2 - more than enough for 1080p (340 MHz)

a cable vendor can designate a cable as Category 1 or 2, but cannot specify a lower bandwidth, and consequently, all HDMI 1.3 compliance testing is done at at least 720p/1080i frequencies.

In case of Category 1 certified cable:
For high qualty cable, u should be able to transmit data without any error on 1080p device.
For a low quality cable, u must be very lucky for it to works on 1080p (yes, it can work)
Why? because no test to certify that the cable able to operate at least 1080p. Those low quality cable might just barely pass the test. You can buy certified category 2 cable to be sure. But of coz, prepare to pay more

hope this help
*
Good, since u r an engineer in the the industry, you can also verify that at lengths shorter than 10ft, most if not all cables will pass the Cat1 and Cat2. Am I right?
neb
post Dec 3 2009, 07:34 PM

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QUOTE(neb @ Dec 3 2009, 07:26 PM)
for those who are interested in HDMI cable contruction :
for higer bandwidth, we need to go optic-fibre
*
avoid cable with 28awg copper wire, they are too fragile at the connection point with the socket
anfieldude
post Dec 3 2009, 07:41 PM

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QUOTE(neb @ Dec 3 2009, 07:34 PM)
avoid cable with 28awg copper wire, they are too fragile at the connection point with the socket
*
Funny, I would have thought otherwise. 28AWG is the lightest cable as such it would put the least stress on the connections. 22AWG is the heavier cable and if not properly secured will cause loosening at the connector in the outer and inner areas. That is why better companies offer bonded ends when they use the lower AWG.
Vinceyang
post Dec 3 2009, 07:47 PM

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QUOTE(Scud_eSpade @ Dec 3 2009, 06:58 PM)

In case of Category 1 certified cable:
For high qualty cable, u should be able to transmit data without any error on 1080p device.
For a low quality cable, u must be very lucky for it to works on 1080p (yes, it can work)
Why? because no test to certify that the cable able to operate at least 1080p. Those low quality cable might just barely pass the test. You can buy certified category 2 cable to be sure. But of coz, prepare to pay more

hope this help
*
So if using low quality cable, either it function or not function for 1080p picture. Is the what you mean?
And if the cable does not work, what is the failure mode that end user will see? totally no picture? or having disruptive picture?

What about if low quality picture barely works with picture and add in HD audio in the same HDMI cable, will make the situation worst?

Just curious.
DigitalTech
post Dec 3 2009, 07:48 PM

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QUOTE(Scud_eSpade @ Dec 3 2009, 06:58 PM)
Im an engineer in HDMI industry.
Let me clarify something. Not all HDMI are the same. HDMI are operated at Ghz frequency. It affects the resistance and conductance of the copper. Even loose connector does affect the transmission. To pass the HDMI certification test, manufacturer have to pass the eye pattern/diagram that are determine by the spec.

There are 2 category of the test.
Category 1 - equivalent to 720p or 1080i (74.5 MHz)
Category 2 - more than enough for 1080p (340 MHz)

a cable vendor can designate a cable as Category 1 or 2, but cannot specify a lower bandwidth, and consequently, all HDMI 1.3 compliance testing is done at at least 720p/1080i frequencies.

In case of Category 1 certified cable:
For high qualty cable, u should be able to transmit data without any error on 1080p device.
For a low quality cable, u must be very lucky for it to works on 1080p (yes, it can work)
Why? because no test to certify that the cable able to operate at least 1080p. Those low quality cable might just barely pass the test. You can buy certified category 2 cable to be sure. But of coz, prepare to pay more

hope this help
*
Finally, someone from the technical background revealed the facts.

I have been telling people about HDMI bandwidth speed and not merely 1 & 0.

Many people choose to believe that HDMI is digital, it's either you see the picture or you don't and all HDMI cables are the same.

The Monster Ultra 800 HDMI cable I'm selling is categorise under Advanced High Speed, achieving greater than 6.68 Gbps. It exceeds 1080p resolution requirements.

I stop explaining this fact, because people may think I am a hard selling my cables.

So, now I leave it for you to decide whether to believe cheap and expensive cables are the same or not.


Monster Cable HDMI Learning Center
http://www.monstercable.com/hdmi/advanced_for_hdmi.asp

This post has been edited by DigitalTech: Dec 3 2009, 08:50 PM
Vinceyang
post Dec 3 2009, 08:11 PM

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QUOTE(anfieldude @ Dec 3 2009, 07:41 PM)
Funny, I would have thought otherwise. 28AWG is the lightest cable as such it would put the least stress on the connections. 22AWG is the heavier cable and if not properly secured will cause loosening at the connector in the outer and inner areas. That is why better companies offer bonded ends when they use the lower AWG.
*
Different between 22 and 28 is that 22 more thicker meaning more copper wire. it is true that 22 less flexible and might cause the lossening problem.

For long run wire, thicker is better since less lost. However, if for me I will settle for a HDMI booster tongue.gif
ar188
post Dec 3 2009, 10:43 PM

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QUOTE(DigitalTech @ Dec 3 2009, 07:48 PM)
Finally, someone from the technical background revealed the facts.

I have been telling people about HDMI bandwidth speed and not merely 1 & 0.

Many people choose to believe that HDMI is digital, it's either you see the picture or you don't and all HDMI cables are the same.

The Monster Ultra 800 HDMI cable I'm selling is categorise under Advanced High Speed, achieving greater than 6.68 Gbps. It exceeds 1080p resolution requirements.

I stop explaining this fact, because people may think I am a hard selling my cables.

So, now I leave it for you to decide whether to believe cheap and expensive cables are the same or not.
Monster Cable HDMI Learning Center
http://www.monstercable.com/hdmi/advanced_for_hdmi.asp
*
read carefully.. he said good quality cables are required to meet 1080p bandwidth. which could mean RM50 good quality cables.

he didn't say need RM300-400 type of cables to meet the high spec requirement, which is more money spent on brand./profit than material construction of the cable...

also, why do you need to exceed the HDMI 1.3 spec? and if it does exceed, how come the ultra800 is not rated at HDMI 1.4 ? so it's not future proofing since it's not 1.4 rated also.. (the 1000 series is 1.4 rated IIRC)
Ngto
post Dec 3 2009, 10:56 PM

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I think I should buy extremely good quality USB cables so that my '0' and '1' will be boosted with extra juice and suddenly my USB drive DVD quality video become Blu-ray Quality video biggrin.gif
ar188
post Dec 3 2009, 11:12 PM

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QUOTE(Scud_eSpade @ Dec 3 2009, 06:58 PM)
Im an engineer in HDMI industry.
Let me clarify something. Not all HDMI are the same. HDMI are operated at Ghz frequency. It affects the resistance and conductance of the copper. Even loose connector does affect the transmission. To pass the HDMI certification test, manufacturer have to pass the eye pattern/diagram that are determine by the spec.

There are 2 category of the test.
Category 1 - equivalent to 720p or 1080i (74.5 MHz)
Category 2 - more than enough for 1080p (340 MHz)

a cable vendor can designate a cable as Category 1 or 2, but cannot specify a lower bandwidth, and consequently, all HDMI 1.3 compliance testing is done at at least 720p/1080i frequencies.

In case of Category 1 certified cable:
For high qualty cable, u should be able to transmit data without any error on 1080p device.
For a low quality cable, u must be very lucky for it to works on 1080p (yes, it can work)
Why? because no test to certify that the cable able to operate at least 1080p. Those low quality cable might just barely pass the test. You can buy certified category 2 cable to be sure. But of coz, prepare to pay more

hope this help
*
better you read all these "real world" empirical and business data below before throwing the engineer word in... there are other engineers around as well.. smile.gif

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cable...testing-results

also about your cat 2 compliance, means nothing, the manufacturer could rate it cat 2 compliance at 2meter length and still make a non verified compliance 10meter version with the same series.....

One can build, for example, a 3-foot long 24 AWG cable with PE dielectric and bare copper conductors, have compliance testing done on it, and then go on to build a cable of a completely different length and design--say, a 25-foot long polyolefin dielectric cable with 28 AWG tinned copper conductors--and do no compliance testing at all.

http://www.bluejeanscable.co.uk/articles/c...hdmi-cables.htm
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «



Added on December 3, 2009, 11:16 pm
QUOTE(Ngto @ Dec 3 2009, 10:56 PM)
I think I should buy extremely good quality USB cables so that my '0' and '1' will be boosted with extra juice and suddenly my USB drive DVD quality video become Blu-ray Quality video  biggrin.gif
*
biggrin.gif

nice wish !

anyway bad HDMI image looks like this..

user posted image


user posted image

user posted image

there goes all your less bright, less sharp, blurrer , less vivid image due to upgrading to more expensive brand of HDMI cable nonsense.. biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by ar188: Dec 3 2009, 11:16 PM
Vinceyang
post Dec 3 2009, 11:28 PM

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QUOTE(ar188 @ Dec 3 2009, 11:12 PM)

there goes all your less bright, less sharp, blurrer , less vivid image due to upgrading to more expensive brand of HDMI cable nonsense..  biggrin.gif
*
ha ha ar188, spot on. I think u nail them all tongue.gif

In a simple word, over engineered will not neccessay good quality. Is like u using 100M router but slowmix only give u 1~4M transfer rate.
ar188
post Dec 3 2009, 11:33 PM

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QUOTE(Vinceyang @ Dec 3 2009, 11:28 PM)
ha ha ar188, spot on. I think u nail them all tongue.gif

In a simple word, over engineered will not neccessay good quality. Is like u using 100M router but slowmix only give u 1~4M transfer rate.
*
biggrin.gif

you know what? the so called failed 720/1080i test signals... something interesting....

We took two of the worst performing cables of the bunch, a RAM Electronics 50' HDMI cable ($130) and an equally challenged Tributaries (Series 9) 15 meter cable ($899). Both understandably fail eye pattern tests at even 720p resolutions. Both, unfortunately, also claim HDMI 1.3 support at up to 10.2 Gbps bandwidth and with Deep Color support. It was fairly obvious that both of these cables would fail real-world tests when connected to a 1080p source.

Except that they didn't.

I saw clean video on two separate displays. I even used two different sources - one HDMI 1.3 and the other sporting an older HDMI 1.2 chipset. Then I got real desperate and nabbed an old HDMI 1.0 source (A Helios NeuNeo player) and slapped it up to triple check the signal.

What?!? Scratching my head I searched in vain for a way to get them to fail. I couldn't. Not at 1080p or any other resolution. Finally I actually resorted to connecting the two huge cables end-to-end. That netted me sparkles at 720p/1080i and absolutely no picture at 1080p with our HDMI 1.0 player. OK, so there are some limits after all. That's good to know.


http://www.audioholics.com/education/cable...tion-conclusion


Added on December 3, 2009, 11:43 pmhttp://gizmodo.com/266616/the-truth-about-monster-cable

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/hdmi-cable-batt...ally-268788.php

http://gizmodo.com/282725/the-truth-about-...finale-part-iii



This post has been edited by ar188: Dec 3 2009, 11:43 PM
neb
post Dec 3 2009, 11:51 PM

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warning! for engineers only laugh.gif
QUOTE(FiberOpticDude)
Actually capacitance is not the issue with TMDS signals through HDMI cables. If you study the telegraphers equations related to transmission lines the RC effect of a cable only is relevant at low frequencies - sub MHz. And the cable looks like a lumped element generally. Once you get up high enough in frequency the dominant effect is an LC, or travelling waves. The loss is due to skin effect, i.e. the signals at high frequency ride on a thinner and thinner layer of conductor as frequency increases essentially making the cable seem more resistive.

The skin effect loss in long HDMI cables is the dominant force that closes the eye diagram. Skin effect loss is directly related to the gauge of the wire. The larger the gauge the less the loss. Dielectric absorbtion also could contribute but that doesn't kick in until even higher frequencies than we have to worry about with HDMI. Also, the loss tangent of the insulation material in cables is pretty low.

The skin-effect loss starts to kick in once you are up in the MHz range. The loss increases relative to the square root of frequency. This is the dominant force for closing the eye diagram. But note that it not only slows the edges but also closes the eye in the vertical dimension as well. So you can end up with a very small eye opening (or none at all) at the end of a long cable.

But making a large gauge cable has its own issues - thick, heavy, lots of copper, stiff, and expensive.
more insight rclxub.gif :
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


before you buy your next hdmi cable, read this article, written by an engineer laugh.gif
http://www.videsignline.com/196900944?printableArticle=true

This post has been edited by neb: Dec 4 2009, 12:16 AM
Vinceyang
post Dec 4 2009, 12:41 AM

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"HDMI 1.2 actually works up to 1.65Gbps."

so one typical bluray have 50G. so with error correction and decompression... the whole disc will complete transfer data at less than 1 minutes?? rclxub.gif rclxub.gif
SiriuslyCold
post Dec 4 2009, 12:49 AM

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QUOTE(Vinceyang @ Dec 4 2009, 12:41 AM)
"HDMI 1.2 actually works up to 1.65Gbps."

so one typical bluray have 50G. so with error correction and decompression... the whole disc will complete transfer data at less than 1 minutes??  rclxub.gif  rclxub.gif
*
If your typical asphalt road can take vehicles going at 300 mph it doesn't mean that you'll ever drive that fast

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