No point unless you're willing to concede that whatever them mancs say is the gospel truth. Apparently some do not grasp the concept of having a difference in opinion.

I agree with most of your post with the exception of this statement. You don't need to be a great football player to rate one. Was Rafa ever that good as a player? What about Wenger? Ferguson? Ancelotti?

Dijimi Traore won the Champions League. Bernard Diomede won the World Cup

Yeah ok fine, bad example but you're not getting my point. What was my point again? That not all good managers were good players. What was this in response to again? That just because someone isn't a pro footballer or a decent one at that, it doesn't mean they can't spot a good or bad one.

Erm and what are you basing your judgement on? Rafa has given them a chance, even Babel. Lucas has improved but I fail to see how Babel has. Enlighten me?

You should have headed over to George and the Dragon in BSC. It's a hangout for Liverpool fans.

I have to agree with your observation though. I was at a full moon party and I planned to watch my game there by low and behold, my friend and I were the only Liverpool fans. We were deciding where to go because I just knew that the majority of pubs would be screening the Man Utd game. In any case, we went to the clubhouse in Bandar Sri Damansara and got them to switch the channel from ESPN to Star Sports. Just before the game was about to kick-off, the waiter comes back to say that some people want to watch the Man Utd game. Surprise, surprise eh? Well we weren't going to budge because we had gone all the way there and ordered a bucket of beer. While we were kitted out in our Gerrard and Carragher kits respectively, none of them were flying their colours urgh. Anyway waiter comes back to strike a compromise. They watched the first half while we watched the second.

Yesterday started out nice actually. I was in my Carra jersey walking out of one of the toilets at the Curve and suddenly I hear someone go, "Carragher" from behind me. I turn around as this bloke makes his way round the corner and smile at him. He looks at me and goes, Carragher, not many have Carragher on the back of their jerseys". I then went on to explain why I chose Carragher's name above everyone else. I then asked if he was a Liverpool fans and he went, "yes, for many years, since 1969". "It was before Fagan, when Paisley was manager". I was in awe. It was a privilege to meet such a seasoned fan. I went on to tell him how I had once met Phil Neal over beers and shared some of the stories he told us on that day. We stood there talking for about 15 minutes before wishing one another all the best of the night's game. Nice moment that was. It's not my first encounter meeting some random Liverpool fan on the street but certainly one of my most memorable. Usually when I bump into a fellow Red, we'll look at one another and exchange a nod of acknowlegement indicating a sense of mutual respect. Prior to yesterday's incident, I was in BSC with my "Shankly" t-shirt when some white dude walked by me and went, "nice T-Shirt". I love the sense of camaradarie amongst our fans.

We've won our last 4 games and it was essential that we did, especially since it was against weaker opposition. Good to have some momentum going into the game against Chelsea and the mancs. There are also negatives however. While we've been banging in the goals, we've also been conceeding a good number. We've now scored 5 goals more than anyone else in the Premiership and Torres is the most prolific striker at the moment but dodgy defending last night let to Geovanni's goal. We cannot afford to make mistakes against more clinical sides like Chelsea. That being said, we can compensate by going forward more. Towards the end of last season we were banging the goals in despite also conceeding. I'm hoping to see us remain positive in our approach to games and going toe-to-toe with the other big guns in the coming months.

Torres to RM one day? I really doubt it, as big a Liverpool fan as he is, he's also Atletico through and through. Then again loyalties can be bought, so who knows for sure eh?

Not true mate. Owen was signed from Chester, he isn't a local lad unlike Torres. Torres to Real Madrid would be like Carragher to Man Utd.

I was wondering what type of mentality the team was going to adopt going into this game. If memory serves me Fiorentina have a piss poor record at home in Europe. Something like 1 win in 12 games, only scoring 3 goals or so. Having said that they have a good time against English opposition apparently. We also haven't loss a European Group tie in 22 months prior to this.

I'm going to summarise my thoughts:

Fullbacks
Did we play with any? How many times were we caught exposed in our wide area?

Defensive Midfield
Fabio Aurelio was the answer? No disrespect but he looked lost at sea after having just come back from a lengthy knee injury.

Out-Thought
It's simple. Rafa came in 2nd this morning. Fiorentina played wide and caught us napping at the back. They also cut off any supply to Gerrard and Torres. They pressed us in midfield and we had problems keeping possession. Don't let out second half performance fool you. They sat back daring us to bring the fight to them which is why we had so much possession.

It's been said that we always churn our Jekyll and Hyde performances and if anything we did reinforce that perception, or did we? I mean Hull have been piss poor this season and our demolition of them could have served as a mere smokescreen coming into this game against a side lying fourth in the Serie A, proving to be a different proposition altogether. Our first half performance as abysmal. I even caught Sebastian Frey playing Sudoku out of the corner of my eye in the first half.

Let's not make any excuses. we were pummeled by Fiorentina. The Chelsea game is still 4 days away.

It's going to be a tough ask, for Stamford Bridge to come falling down again. Our defeat of them last season was the catalyst for a series of dropped points at home for them. Can we do the same this season? I'm not convinced we can to be honest. We were out thought by Fiorentina and Ancelotti would have picked up on this. Glenn Johnson is excellent getting forward but that leaves gaps at the back. With Carra and Skrtel in uncertain form, I don't see us coming away with a clean sheet.

I was watching the Man Utd (notice I never use just, "United" because I think it's an insult to clubs like Sheffield United, West Ham United and so on when you do) game in Laundry last night. Think the split was 50-50 between mancs and non-mancs. I couldn't really tell because there wasn't a single Man Utd jersey in sight from where I was sitting, which was kind of ironic because prior to the game, I saw heaps of them in Ikea and Ikano. I only realised that there was a decent number of them around when they scored.

Sunderland are a decent side but I didn't expect them to get anything out of the game, but credit to them for taking the fight to the home side early on. Bardsley looked really up for it as though he had a point to prove. Kenwyn Jones held the line pretty well. The way he and Bent played last night was reminiscent of Sunderland's former synergetic pairing of Niall Quinn and Kevin Philips. Defensively, the whole team looked cohesive.

Before the ref's assistant put up the borad to indicate the amount of extra time, I turned to my friend and said, "I bet he adds on four minutes". I've commented before that ref's seem to do all they can to justify adding on as much time as possible at Old Trafford, and I'm sure yesterday's 4 minutes could be justified though a layman like me didn't think so. What do I know?

I can't believe Fergie had a rant to be honest. You'd think that a great injustice was done to his side but in truth, they were just frustrated by a well organised Sunderland defence in the end.

On to Stamford Bridge we go. C'mon you red men! Let's see which team turns up tonight.

I woke up feeling the same way I felt after Chelsea's second goal last night, frustrated. It took awhile but after giving the game a lot of thought, I've concluded that it's a result I can stomach. Unlike against Fiorentina, we actually played as though we had a gameplan. We took the game to them early on and despite not keeping Hilario busy, we looked comfortable on the ball. We have lost 3 games and although the season has just begun, one wonders how many more we'll lose if we don't inject more quality into our squad. While we may have a decent first eleven, we don't have many match winners to bring on when we have our backs to the wall. With the exception of Yossi Benayoun, do we have anyone who can make a significant contribution? In contrast Chelsea had Cole, Kalou and Malouda in their ranks.

What is the reality here? Well if I were a pessimist, I'd say we will struggle to stay in the top four as the season progresses. What am I saying? We'll struggle to get back amongst the top four especially with the Sunderland game coming up, followed by Man Utd who surprising dropped points at home against the Black Cats. What's disturbing is that we've had Torres and Gerrard fit this far. I shudder to think of what might happen if either of them got injured, especially with the cup competitions yet to hit full speed. If I were an optimist I'd say that bar Villa, many teams are going to struggle against Spurs and Chelsea especially at White Hart Lane and Stamford Bridge respectively. Not as bleak at it looks perhaps.

So now the question is which am I? Optimist or pessimist?

A few quick points on yesterday's game:-

Carra vs. Drogba
Needless to say I wasn't best pleased seeing the Ivorian go down under every challenge, only to decide to stay on his feet when in an advantageous position right at the end as he muscled past Carragher. One incident in particular stood out and it was just as funny as it was annoying. Andy Gray was talking about how it's hard to be sure what to make of it each time Drogba goes down when Benayoun takes the ball of him. Benayoun is hardly a heavy weight. The Ivorian goes down clutching his shin for like the gazzilionth time and Martin Tyler goes, "maybe he has a low pain threshold". Wasn't best pleased when he held Skrtel down from a corner either.

To be fair, I think Carra did pretty well against a player he has always struggled against. If Agger was fit, he'd probably have been given the assignment. From what I can recall the Dane has always played well against Drogba. Like I said however Carra held his own against a younger, stronger, faster and in general a more powerful opponent. We all know what a mistake on the defensive end is always magnified. A striker can miss 10 chances, score one and still be a hero. A goalkeeper or defender on the other hand, needs to make only one mistake to be victimised.

The 12th Man
They did their best to get behind the team. I heard chants of "Liverpool, Liiiiiverpool, Leeeeverpoool", "We won it 5 times", and the "Torres Song". One a few occasions, the 2000 odd away fans silenced the home fans, until they scored that is. Maybe the goal had something to do with it?

Mascherano
Showed us how much we missed him against Fiorentina. Whenever our fullbacks get caught out in the opposition half, it's our fiesty little Argentinian usually provides cover, speeding across the pitch to close the attacker down. His absence was the reason Fiorentina managed to catch us exposed out wide time and time again. His form has been under some scrutiny of late but I think he redeemed himself last night. It was really a sight for sore eyes, watching him provide defensive cover. Unfortunate that he mad an error and was severely punished for it though.

Overall, not the best of starts. We've a tough time ahead beginning with a tricky away tie at the Stadium of Light, before hosting the mancs. Also, a double header against Lyon on the Champions League. Our prospects this season will arguably be determined after this 4 ties.

YNWA.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Oct 5 2009, 10:04 AM

Actually I agree with him, as do most of my manc mates. A draw would have best served them in the long run, in my opinion anyway. If you were to ask at the beginning of the season, I'd hope for all my closest rivals to cancel one another out and for one of the darkhorses to pull one over them.

We cannot look at it purely from a mathematical angle. Was this the best result for the mancs? It depends on how we and Chelsea fare against the other big sides. It's like I said, if we cancel one another out, the mancs only need to beat us to have the upper hand. This would have been a good result if we beat Chelsea an Anfield. As it stands, the mancs now have a chance at coming to Anfield and ending any hopes we may still harbour of winning the title.

I have to be realistic here. We're an injury or two away from knocking outselves out of the competition.

If I'm to be honest, I'd rather see Chelsea at the top than Man Utd but before anyone gets their panties in a twist, let me articulate why.

a) The mancs are one season away from surpassing our now joined record of 18 league titles.
b) The mancs are close to equaling our European record of winning the Champions League 5 times.
c) Despite all the money that was inherited by sides like Chelsea and Man City, the mancs and us have a long history and I will always see them as our biggest rivals.
d) Them mancs take the piss out of us all the time, you can tell by some of the songs their fans sing even when they aren't playing us.

Before a manc comes in and says that I'm just another ABU, well I've my reasons. I don't care if anyone else does, I do.

I watched the game in George and the Dragon with Jono and a few other lads. Prior to it starting, we had a short coversation with two white blokes seated on the next table. One has been a fan for 40 years. He said one thing which I completely agree with. He said that while Ferguson sets out to win games, Rafa sets out not to lose them and it was evident in our approach to Saturday's game. I was kind of baffled to see Agger and Skrtel running down either flank when we had Johnson and Aurelio there. I can only imagine we were playing a 5-4-1 formation with Carragher playing in the middle of a back 3.

We didn't do much to indicate we deserved to get anything out of the game although it was bad arse luck that we conceded. I'm just surprised that after the game ball deflected, Pepe was looking at the red beach ball rather than the game ball.

It's no big secret that I've been critical of Rafa for the past 3 seasons now. To be honest, I'm sick and tired of us whining about not having funds. How much has Wenger spent? Fact of the matter is that he hallmark of a great manager is to overachieve. Questions is, has Rafa? Last season, perhaps but we were always expected to challenge. Instead of building on last season, it seems we're taking a step back. Here we are labeled as 'title contenders', which may be a little unfair, and we had Lucas and Spearing in the heart of midfield last week. They may not suck all that bad but they aren't going to win you championships either. What happened to how we ended last season? What happened to going for the win rather than trying not to lose?

Really, money isn't the main issue. It's what we did with the money we had that is. It seems that with each passing season, players come and go. We've settled the issue of the spine now in Reina, Carra, Gerrard and Torres. Having said that Carra is out of sorts and isn't exactly a spring chicken. It only took what? 6 years?

We all know squad size matter but it isn't just about buying good players. We have to consider if Rafa is able to groom players enabling them to reach their potential. It's been said that the reason we spend to much is because we have to buy an entire squad which is frustrating, because it seems like we're building all the time. How many players have left and not realised their potential? For those that "weren't good enough", why did we buy them in the first place? Flaw in our scouting department? In the end, Rafa buys the players so why haven't any of them lived up to expectation? Insua looks to be the exception.

I'm critical of Rafa not just because of his spending but also of his tactics. Can I do better? Of course not but I'm not paid millions to run a team am I? Unlike him I'm no pro but it's evident from the way we play that there is much left to be desired. We were inconsistent prior to Rafa taking the helm and we are still inconsistent. Have we improved as a team? Well I thought we did judging from our 2nd placed finish last season, but to think that all that has changed just because one player left shows that our results are more dependant on which players we have and not how we play, which concerns me.

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Added on October 20, 2009, 3:40 pmIf you bothered to do some research, you'll note that Ferguson rotates players just as much as Rafa does, so to say that it's Rafa's "trademark skill" isn't accurate.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Oct 20 2009, 03:40 PM

You're right which is why some fans are critical of Rafa's people skills. I believe the re-appointment of Sammy Lee was meant to resolve this issue.

So the question is, did we sign a whole bunch of unmotivated players, or do we have a managerial team incapable of motivation them?