Hi All/HR friends,

I have a simple question on offer letters.
Let’s say a company-X offered you a position with 3K. And there is a liability clauses in the offer letter mentioned if you didn’t turn-up (no-show) on the first day of work, you need to pay back 1 month salary exactly what they offered.

So let’s say you already signed this offer, and if you didn’t turn up on that day (with a rejection letter to the new company), are they eligible to do such thing by asking us to pay?
Do we have any employment law to protect us from this?

Because I think this is not so fair. Please help and give some advice!

Thanks

i think the clause is to scare candidate only.

but if he/she signed the employment letter which such condition ... then the employer might win.

Not fair to the employer too mah. I think it's suppose to be if you don't give prior notice say a month before quitting, then you have to pay back.

will the employer go waste time sue those candidates ?

and is the signature can be used to sue the candidates ?

If you have signed the agreement with the clause stated as such; then that binds you to a contract that you understand and fully agree to the terms. Thus, there's no such thing of calling it as unfair (unless in certain conditions where the clause is totally bollocks and illegal - then you have an argument).

Rather than just not showing; why not settle it nice and professionally by notifying them in writing and offering your apologies or regrets on the sudden change in decision?

To say that it's not fair for such a clause to be imposed on a new employee's contract wouldn't sound too convincing as companies also put a lot of effort and money as well in setting up job advertisement, arranging for interviews and making preparations for new staffs.

Business is business. How many ~!@#$%^&* times do I have to advice people not to sign any documents before making a sound decision??!! Sometimes it makes me wonder, why people would put themselves in a legal complication.

Once you've signed the Contract of Service, you are bounded with terms as stipulated. However, there's no end to it. As mentioned by "PsyCHZZZ", there's a backdoor (Not DotA term of "backdoor") option. Do it in a professional manner and keep your fingers crossed.

Regards, Joey

Hi All, thanks for your prompt responses.
Yes - I meant to be rejecting in a appropriate manner - let's say a few weeks before the commencing date.

Sometimes, sound decision is firm but you never know what your current company going to counter-offer. So sometimes, it is still debatable.

I guess that's why so many companies HR put such clauses in their offer.

Good for you. Are you sure about the counter offer? You sounded optimistic about that though. What's the catch?

Regards, Joey

Anyone mind if I create another thread titled " Are graduates nowadays really clueless and hapless that they may get lost the moment you turn your head around??" ?

This post has been edited by depster666: Sep 7 2009, 01:21 PM

Hahaha!! I am not a fresh graduate nor I am the one that really in this situation

Take it easy, but I just wanted to know about this information. There is no right or wrong, just contribute if you have any real situation/experiences from friends or yourself on this. Thanks

My advice: DO NOT simply sign ANY DOCUMENT that you DO NOT UNDERSTAND.

Regards, Joey

p.s: You might be ended up in an isolated island for no good reason.

Let make it simple here.

You signed the contract so you are legally bind to do what is in the contract regardless.

You broke the contract, the company may or may not sue you, is up to them to decide but they have the right to do so and you may lose and may have to pay more than what's initially stated in the contract.

You broke the contract, your now to be company may 'one day' decide to call up your old company and if found out, may mean bad reputation in your now company. If you decide to apply to a better company, that company may ask testimonials from your old one to clarify the resume.

So conclusion, just pay up or else you may end up worse than you think since you DID sign the contract. Just take it as a lesson to firmly not sign anything unless you are sure of it.

Here's a Chinese proverb to back you up. "If you don't want anyone to know, don't do it"

Regards, Joey

once u signed a contract, ur legally bound by it.

you have to pay what was stated in the contract. or you can work something out outside of the court. because i doubt any party wants to go through the hassle of court proceedings.

i suggest u pay the amount stated in the clause of the contract or prepare to face legal action.

it is FAIR.. very fair. both u and ur company had understood the contract when u signed it.

and sorry to tell u but in malaysia (if u are here anyways), the employee rights are very bad.

Let's go for Industrial Court then. Time to grab popcorn and a can of Coke. It's troublesome but I sure enjoy it.

Regards, Joey

p.s: I've been attending a few Court cases and it feels good at times. As the Chinese saying goes, "kill one to warn a hundred" is applicable to your case.

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Sep 7 2009, 02:04 PM

a signature is a signature. you can complicate things by not doing what was agreed to the document you have SIGNED.

You signed, you leave, they MIGHT sue, depending on how you settle it.

If you don't turn up, obviously they will require an explanation, but if you are going to turn down the job, do it before the first, polite, if they still sue you, its something you can't run away from, cause you signed!

So it depends on luck too.

TS, read up on the legal concept of unconscionable contracts. Essentially, contracts which are heavily biased towards one party (typically the party with more bargaining power or resources/knowledge eg. employer vs employee, bank vs customer etc), the contract may not be enforceable as the consideration put forward by one party may not be of reasonable value compared to the consideration from the other party.

In this case, I feel that demanding a penalty of 3K is not reasonable compared to the simple act of promising you the job. This is especially when the contract is one-sided ie. does not say that the company must pay you 3K if they subsequently terminate the offer before you start work.

In addition, when anyone wants to demand a penalty or damages under contract, those damages are limited by the actual amount of loss or injury sustained. The basic concept is that the aggrieved party cannot be allowed to PROFIT from the damages awarded, but merely to the extent that they are RECOMPENSED. In this case, the company has to show that they have somehow lost 3K or more, by your simple act of not showing up. Considering the fact that the company has not actually spent a cent on you, I think their case is weak. And if they offered the job to the next shortlisted candidate (after your no-show) and he accepted, then there is virtually no loss at all.

This post has been edited by seantang: Sep 7 2009, 09:46 PM

think and consider carefully before you sign it. dun sign the offer letter if you do not wan the job.
if everything is stated on the offer letter and you sign for it, you should take the responsibility as well.
its fair.

but why u sign when u plan not to start work there???

Sigh. TS, share topic of discussion here ya.

Here's my situation:
Currently working at company A. Went for interview with company B. Got job offer from company B. Offer letter received on 7th Sept. First reporting day stated on offer letter is 12th Oct. Haven't signed the letter as wanted to go through thoroughly before pen down anything.
Suddenly Company C (my dream company) called for interview (phone interview 2wks ago) on 10th Sept.

My concerns :
Prepared to leave company A no matter what. Company B is good but PREFER company C due to job scope and work environment. The problem is if i sud reject company B asap or wait for company C to offer. Also need to consider that there is a chance company C might not hire. so if that happens, i'll end up with nth!.

Besides, i can't delay the offer by company B too long as its unfair to them. And, company C might take some time to decide whether to hire me or not (also the med checkup before confirmation).

What should i do now?

My options :
Go for interview with company C on 10th Sept. tell them about my concerns and dateline (Inclusive of resignation with Co. A and offer from Co. B). Ask for faster processing, if possible, immediate answer.

OR

Reject Co. B offer, stay at Co. A. Wait for Co. C. If no offer, then no choice but to stay at Co. A till find another job.

Questions :
Can i sign Co. B offer (2wks notice during probation), then submit resignation to Co. B if Co. C offers me BEFORE reporting date on 12th Oct? I know its foolish but.. dont know what else i can do here...

Kindly advice. Dun flame ..

This post has been edited by dantwt: Sep 8 2009, 05:19 PM

Alright. Let's take it from a very systematic and mathematical approach.

First things first. Company A as you have mentioned should be drawn out from the equation.

Secondly, the 2 days lapse shall deemed sufficient for you to play your cards right. Dilly dally with it and it's "kiss it goodbye case".

Hold on to the Contract of Service (CoS) of Company B. (Do the same 'ol, same 'ol routine a.k.a Read & Understand the content of the CoS) 12th September is your date of employment commencement date, if you choose to work with them.

Since you have the interview of Company C on the 10th September, go for it anyways. There's no harm or whatsoever, right? Do your interview there and then. Evaluate the whole prospect of Company C with Company B.

Do some weighing between the two, PROVIDED they are offering you the job in Company C. However, if things didn't turn out well from Company C, you'll have Company B to fall back upon, right?

Regards, Joey

p.s: Simple clear cut and the good thing is you have TWO (2) days to play around. You make the call and run the table. All the best for you.

Oh ya! Almost forgotten to address your questions.

My options :
Go for interview with company C on 10th Sept. tell them about my concerns and dateline (Inclusive of resignation with Co. A and offer from Co. B). Ask for faster processing, if possible, immediate answer.

HONESTY IS EQUIVALENT SUICIDAL HERE. Need an elaborate explanation on this?

OR

Reject Co. B offer, stay at Co. A. Wait for Co. C. If no offer, then no choice but to stay at Co. A till find another job.

NOT FEASIBLE. Do you know calculated risk and ~!@#$%^&* blunt risk? Would you want to fall back to square one a.k.a Company A? Your turn to be the banker.

Questions :
Can i sign Co. B offer (2wks notice during probation), then submit resignation to Co. B if Co. C offers me BEFORE reporting date on 12th Oct? I know its foolish but.. dont know what else i can do here...

SIMPLE. IT'S AKIN SMART INNOCENT MOVE. If you are brave hearted and feels maverick about that move, go ahead. It's gutsy but the outcome will overshadows the shortcoming from the short probationary resignation.

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Sep 8 2009, 06:09 PM

Joey,

TS reporting date with B is 12th Oct, interview date with C is 10th Sept. So, he has ample time to think over and decide whether to stick to B or go to C, should he gets it.

I dont see any problem in this, go for the interview but dont do anything silly with company B (yet). 12th Oct is still your 1st day with B. In fact, if I were you, I would use the company B offer as my trump card during company C interview for better perks, etc. At the same time, you can ask (not demand) company C to provide soonest possible feedback of your interview. Company C's willingness(?) in doing that would somehow reflect whether you made the grade or not...

Aiks! It's OCTOBER AND SEPTEMBER? or SEPTEMBER AND SEPTEMBER?

It's 6pm and it's off work for me. Anyways, the above mentioned advices shall continue tomorrow.

Regards, Joey

p.s: 6pm = pang kang liao. In addition, you can evaluate what I've written and make adjustments here and there as per your liking. Time to go home.

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Sep 8 2009, 06:09 PM

@Joey , depster666

The problem is I have to return the CoS as soon as possible to Co. B. Probably the latest is by next monday. If the interview outcome with Co. C only can be known 2weeks after the interview date then it would be difficult to arrange.

Also, do note that the CoS mentioned the reporting date to be 12 Oct. So i must tender my resignation with Co. A by 11 Oct.

"HONESTY IS EQUIVALENT SUICIDAL HERE. Need an elaborate explanation on this?"
Joey, if u dont mind, pls elaborate a little here. I'm not sure what to mention and what not in a situation like this.

And frankly, i'm pretty sure that Co. C will definitely offer me a better remuneration and benefits, as i have gone through the offer made by Co.B.

Regarding my Question, can we all agree that its a legal move or sud i consider more alternatives?

OK... this is what I wud do if I were u...

Return the signed CoS to Co.B. And like I said, during my interview with Co.C, i wud inform them about Co.B's offer.. in return for better perks from Co.C and to force their hands into giving u the interview feedback early... u can tell them that it would make ur life easier in deciding. If no news from Co.C by 10th Oct, resign from Co.A on 11th (check about 24 hrs notice penalty) and report to Co.B on 12th. If and when Co.C offer comes afterward, well... that's not that difficult to make a decision right?...

I have to give 1mth notice to Co. A for resignation, in which, if i dont, i have to pay 1mth salary.

Hence, the last day for me to hand in the resignation is by 11th SEPT, Unless i request from Co. B to change the reporting day to a later date ( not sure if this can be done though).

Thus, excluding non-working days, I have only 1 day to make decision or for Co. C to make an offer (which i strongly doubt they'll make an offer so soon).

For now, what I planned to do is:
-Attend interview on 10th Sept (tomoro)
-During interview, mention about offer (Co.B) and resignation (Co.A) issues.
-Request for quick response from Co.C regarding interview outcome.
-Depending on answers given by Co.C at the end of interview, Request for reporting day extension(1wk) from Co. B (still haven't thought of what excuse to give).
-Submit resignation for on 16th/19th Sept (w/ 1 mth notice)
-PRAY everynite for Co. C to reply by 18th Sept. Else, jus sign Co B CoS for good. Have to let go Co. C even if they decide to offer after 18th Sept (though i wud literally kill myself for not waiting longer.. *sob*)

Feasible? Comments are welcome.

First off, do not let Company C know about any other companies you are about to join aside from your currently working one. It's suicide because it means this candidate is undecided about his choices and a risk because he/she may decide to delay this and that just because he/she got a 'personal' problem. Unless you are someone important that company C willing to look pass the 'inconveniences', suggest you just go ahead and sign in with Company B if you really want to get out from A. Work there for a while until u hear from C. If C say u got offered, suggest you tell company C give u some time (if possible depending on what C is requesting) to settle the payback to B. Based on experiences, certain company especially the big one, will reply quite late (sometime even up to a 6 months to a year) before you can get the offer. So suggest just working in B and DO NOT EVER pressure C to hasten the reply as they are the 'boss' NOT 'you', and you may lose respect from C. They are not in the position to play favoristism and might have other better candidates than you. Think of it as an investment should you need to leave B sooner prior to the notification months.

This post has been edited by LeechFever: Sep 9 2009, 09:00 AM

i bet company C will tell you in the end:- if you can't wait then please go for the other offer and let go off this.
i believe company C also have a lot of candidate to choose as u r not the only one. y should they pick u in a rush while they might be candidates which are better than you. unless you r really good that they must have you.

Frankly speaking, Remunerations and benefits are just added lure. My concern: ARE YOU POSITIVELY SURE they (Company C) will be TAKING YOU IN?

Let's play a game of poke, shall we? Let's say I see you have a pair of 10s at the moment. The call is yours to be made. Would you call in and raise me? Alright, you can say you needed more time to shift to a new place to stay...I know it's a bit lame.

However, you may want to say, "I'm currently serving my notice period and there's hand overs to be made". (Sounded like you had some responsibilities needed to be taken care of and it makes you like you are a very errmmm...responsible staff? even when you are on the verge of leaving".

Is there any legal obligations that held upon you? Apart from the probationary period resignation, there's nothing much there. Serve it in a good way and you are off to Company C, ONLY IF they confirm on hiring you and should you accept the offer.

Regards, Joey

p.s: Sometimes you need to think like a football manager. It's critical and you are leveled at 1-1. Time left is quarter to full time. Should you substitute your support striker? Should you substitute your ace striker? Are you going for offensive or defensive tactic implementation? Getting 3 points with the game is viable. Going home with 1 point sounds fair too. Heck it! You might be going home 0 point, right? Times like this requires individual brilliance. And this individual is you.

---

Added on September 9, 2009, 10:25 amI have an advice for you, Thread Starter. Here's a Chinese saying for you to ponder, "If you must play, decide on three things at the start: the rules of the game, the stakes, and the quitting time".

Regards, Joey

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Sep 9 2009, 10:25 AM

Well, it depends... and I agree that it is a double-edged sword. From my personal experience during my interview with my current paymaster, the 1st question asked was "Are you sitting on any other offers at the moment? " which I was.. bla, bla, bla, then conversation extended to how much were the offers etc. Anyway, to cut short, i got offered from them a couple of hours after the interview, and significant increase from other offers...

At the end of the day, in TS case, it depends on how professional Co.C would be wrt to Co.B's offer and how well TS would play his card during the interview.

I would go for reservation at the initial stage. See how the interview plays. Sometimes being reserved can be very good, strategically for you to play accordingly to your style and pacing.

Regards, Joey

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Sep 9 2009, 11:19 AM

Basically it depends on how desperate Company C need TS then. When they ask "Are you sitting on any other offers at the moment?", it shows that the company is either valuing you highly or they are really short on labour and desperate need to fill the shoe in by trying to outbid other job snatchers. There are often news that a new company been set up, offered contract from clients and in need of more manpower to charge the manhour to. That has a higher chances of getting hired in within a few days to weeks instead of months. For TS, if there's no indication of that, suggest you follow the safer route that is just to take up B offer then later decide to move to C.

There are no definite systematic routing on how they want to hire people. U can go through back door or front. U get lucky and got interview by the top management himself or unlucky that ur resume got piled below and forgotten. All in all, it depends on luck and ur initiative. But under uncertain circumstances, better to follow the usual system of employment than to push ur luck too far.

This post has been edited by LeechFever: Sep 9 2009, 11:24 AM

I agree. Move in for Company B. Make your stand there. Period. Once greenlight is given from Company C, move forward from where you are standing.

From playing a game of poker to football. Now, we are going military style. Great discussion! Anyways, be careful of being labeled as job hogging. It ain't nice from an employer's perspective. It might kill you straight off.

Regards, Joey

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Sep 9 2009, 11:44 AM

Well done for the opinions and comments guys. Really appreciate your inputs as i can get a clearer picture now.

It does make sense for joining Co. B first. After all, its still a reputable MNC in the semiconductor industry. Not worried about "job hopping" label since i have told myself not to indicate any work experience for jobs less than 6mths.

Nevertheless, I will be going all out for the interview with Co. C tomoro (wish me luck!)

@LeechFever, depster666, Joey Christensen, cwilliamc
Thanks again and will update the outcome of the interview tomoro.

Another question:
Once LO or CoS is being issued to employee, and the employee pen his/her signature down, Does this means that the Employee and Employer does NOT have the right to retract the offer made back? (Legally, of course)

What is stated in the offer is what both parties MUST do, or else settle in court. But of course employer has the right to fire anyone as he sees fit (unless we have a labour union) but normally in the contract if the employer fires you without first giving prior notification, they will have to pay you according to the salary equal to the notification months stated in the contract, and vice versa, that is of course if both parties agree to it.

This post has been edited by LeechFever: Sep 9 2009, 12:56 PM

never sign an agreement if u think u cannot agree with the term

There's the Industrial Court if things get ugly. However, I would suggest that NO SIGNATURE should be penned unnecessarily. You may ended up in harm's way.

There are cases that can be settled out of court. But this lies in the discretion of you and the involved company. It's good to maintain healthy relationship without burning up the bridge.

As they say it, "Come in good faith and leave in good faith".

Regards, Joey

p.s: Good Luck tomorrow. All the best.

the problem is they want the job ... so they wont think of those clause that time when signing the offer letter ...

Only sign the LO on your 1st day with Co. B.

No you do not do that unless agreed upon. Must see situation or else you may get terminated for other favorable candidate.

Agreed. From my previous experience, all employer requires the new hire to return the LO within 7 days (as stated in the LO itself regarding the validity of the offer).

Thus, other option will be to ask for extension in reporting date a.k.a. employer needs to prepare new LO w/ newly agreed date. True? Is it advisable to do so?

Yes you can do that provided you have good reason for it. For example you need to complete certain work in your soon to be ex-company before leaving so you may need more time, etc (but under certain condition, better to think of a good excuse than "I got another offer from other company so can wait?" type of excuse). But that depends if the employer agreed to it or not. If not, bad luck.

This post has been edited by LeechFever: Sep 10 2009, 09:35 AM

Hence stupidity pays.

Regards, Joey

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Added on September 10, 2009, 9:36 amPossible. Provided you come off with a smart reason. No "My pet dog just died yesterday" reason should be told. Your turn to call the bets.

Regards, Joey

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Sep 10 2009, 09:37 AM

i m having the same dilemma.... signed A , but offer higher a bit pay ...hahha

What would you like to propose then?

Regards, Joey

the offer letter is just an offer not a contract, the company also not loss anything?! actually how the company spread the news to other company ? i wonder ....

Simple. Words of mouth, phone calls, authoritative boards, etc.

Regards, Joey

the hr gonna call one by one to other companies HR ? other companies HR so free to asnwer call or listen to the rumors. are you work as HR ? are you heard other hr report to you such case before?

Depending on industries and whether ur HR so 'eng' or not to even bother to do that. Have u not heard of HR nowadays (probably in US since the survey probably done there) take a peek at facebook to see what their employee(or future employee) is saying about them? In O&G especially, network (between colleagues, personal doctors, strangers) is important to determine future work place, investment and potential clients. So it's not that surprising.

Yes. Duh! Through reference(s) made available.

Regards, Joey

p.s: Are you that naive, kitty girl? Oh ya! I need not to hear from others as I was an HR Generalist before and I knew that years ago. Do you want to know more about HRM dirty tactics? Wake up and smell the brew of a coffee.

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Sep 14 2009, 12:38 PM

Just to wake u up.

Before I joined Accenture,

I got an email, from an Australian company saying that they have been authorized on behalf of Accenture to conduct a background check

Where they called up the hr department of my company , talked to my immediate superior.

So yes.. they do give a shit,

if my hr department said, i was a lousy worker, do you really think ill be working in accenture right now ? o_O

There are 100 applicants. 99 of them, hr department said they are good, but for u, ur hr department said some negative things about u, rumour or not, why would a company hire u, who was a risk, when there are 99 others. =D

Not like you have such unique skill set that the company would die without .

Just my 2 cents.

Some HR do investigate potential candidates...

sometimes they even investigate why u leave your previous company... is it just because of better salary or u've done something wrong b4

Sometimes need not to do any checking. The words coming out of your mouth is justifiable for the interviewer to know. Body languages, articulation of words, way of replying, the feedbacks, all these are key indicators. It's not tasking to call your previous company to have a little "chatting" with your previous employer to know you "better".

Regards, Joey

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Added on September 14, 2009, 1:15 pmThey were professional/courteous to inform you about the check. Some do it (behind our back) without acknowledging you in the first place.

Regards, Joey

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Sep 14 2009, 01:15 PM

---DELETED---

This post has been edited by sharenchin: Sep 15 2009, 03:45 PM

Alright guys & girls,

Reviving this thread to update on my status/situation (if u're lost, refer to page#2).

Went for the interview with Co. C and everything went smoothly; showed me around with their product Hall of Fame. I tink I managed to convince them that I'm a worthy employee. They couldn't give me a specific date on when the results will be known.

At the same time, signed offer with Co. B, returned the copy of LO to HRD. Tender resignation to Co. A also (with 1 mth notice period).

A week after the interview with Co. C, the HR rep called me for an offer. I accepted without hesitation as it is where i want to continue my career path.

Now I'd have to call up Co. B to tell them I have to reject their offer and won't be able to report in. (Maybe anyone here can suggest a professional speech in such situation??)

All in all, I'm so relieved I am offered my dream position/job in Co. C (eventhough they are known to restructure certain departments from time to time).

Last but not least, Thanks and kudos to all who contributed in advice and constructive comments!! *cheers*

+1

Currently experienced a similar situation.

I had signed the offer letter but changed my mind to stay on the current company. There is a clause in the offer letter that 1 month salary compensation will be needed in the case candidate unable to report on duty.

My current company HR advised me to talk to the new company HR diplomatically if it possible to waive the compensation, else they will ask for my offer letter and will help me to 'settle' it with their HR.

But I'm curious how they gonna 'settle' it? Did this kind of practice normal for HR?

Thanks.

what's the longest any of you have had to wait for a letter of offer? MNC.

If employer sent a signed offer letter in scanned PDF format to candidate via email, and candidate printed out the letter and signed his/her signature on it and resent back in scanned PDF to the employer, is the offer letter/contract a legal document in term of HR and legal perspective ? Can he/she tender resignation with a scanned PDF offer letter in which both employer and candidate has signed on it ?

If you don't want to stay, no one will make you. Unless you are a C-level position, I don't think a company would waste their time and resources to take legal action against you... Just turn down the offer nicely.

Since a necro tered, tell u a story

A university of mine got grad who accepted to do intern at Company Z
She put a lecturer as reference which the lecturer agreed to do so

Dunno wat happened, the grad didn't show up at the Company X on first day despite signed contract

Lastly, cases brought to court
The lecturer need to be summoned to the court

From that time, the lecturer never become reference for students again

That Company X put all effort money to sue the intern