ZeratoS,

Necessity is the mother of innovation.

<< To what extent have we lost our creativity as humans. And of what cause can this be put on? Advancement in technology seems to be a rather plausible cause here. As it seems, children these days are becoming more lazy and straightforward in context with studying and the like.>>

No. This has NOTHING to do with advancement of technology. It is VERY SIMPLE. Most children are SPOILED by their parent. When everything is handled and arranged by your parent and you have NOTHING to worry about, you LOST your resourcefulness.

Necessity is the mother of innovation.

When we were YOUNG and POOR, we had NO MONEY. So, we have to make our own toys out of junks. We did not play computer games. We created our own games.

No, we did not had the LUXURY of study only. We have to help with family business or chores in order to survive. Some of us are from farm family. We had to work in the farm plus studying.

When I went to college, I had to work in order to pay my way through college.

I had to be RESOURCEFUL, INNOVATIVE, CREATIVE or I do not survive.

Necessity is the mother of innovation.

If I put you in an island with nothing, you will be CREATIVE in no time or you do not survive.

Dreamer

map,

Now, who is CLOSE MINDED??

Most mothers of my generation has to help with the business and farm plus doing the house chores. Only in this generation, you have home maker only. In my parent generation, we are so poor that being a HOME MAKER only is not a luxury that a family can afford.

My mother is closed and simple minded?? Her mind is sharper than mine. She had traveled every where in the world except South America and Africa. And, she does not know English. She never finished primary school.

Compare to my mother and women now, I would women now is MORE closed, simple minded and WEAK. Most women now are WEAK. Ditto for the men too.

Now, before ANYONE argue with me. Just ask yourself, can you SURVIVE mentally and physically if 50% of your peers and parents are massacred by the Japanese Soldiers over 5 years?? They are one of the toughest people around. Simple and close minded?? You must be JOKING!!

Necessity is the mother of innovation.

They had to be VERY RESOURCEFUL in order to survive under that kind of condition.

Dreamer

ZeratoS,

Don't worry. Your easy life will be gone soon. This GLOBAL RECESSION will change a lot of things in Malaysia.

Dreamer

bgeh,

How many of those innovations are from people that has an easy life??

The TOPIC on this thread is why AVERAGE and GENERAL people lack creativity. It is a MACRO question. It is NOT a micro question. So, does ANY of your answers affects a LARGE enough number of people to affect the CREATIVITY of the population?? The answer is NO.

<<I disagree about hardship, and competition being the only motivating factors for innovation.>>

It is NOT the only factor. There are OTHER factors that affect an individual. But, hardship and competition affects LARGE number of people. The environmental factor affects more people than any other reasons.

You are a SCIENTIST wannabe So, obviously, you know the concept of 80-20 rule and normal distribution.

In this world, 10% of the people will NEVER be creative. 10% of people will always be creative. As to the other 80%, they are AFFECTED by the environment whether they are CREATIVE or not.

This topic is talking about those 80% aka average people.

<<Well there's always curiousity, >>

What is curiosity?? It ONLY exist with people that are NOT contented with what they know and what they are now.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 20 2009, 04:37 AM

bgeh,

<< So what's new there? Has it really gotten worse or better from say, the 1800s? In fact I'd argue that creativity has increased, not decreased over time, contrary to the original post's assertion that it is dropping over time instead, even for that average 80% you speak of.>>

<<creativity has increased,>>

For which country?? Which part of the world??

<<But I'd like to ask: What's wrong with being contented? What's wrong with being idle?>>

Then, what is WRONG in being not creative??

Creative is the opposite of contentment and idle. Being creative means not conforming to the NORM. Aka, non-conformist. Being normal means that you are contented and idle.

Dreamer

bgeh,

<<Evidenced by the recent tech boom, gadgets, the new grandiose buildings sprouting up everywhere with original modernist designs.>>

Now, this is getting interesting. As per your opinion,

A) recent tech boom

B) gadgets

C) the new grandiose buildings

How does those items signifies that many people are creative?? I failed to see those items as a sign of many people are creative.

Dreamer

jiaxun,

<<They didn't show their creativity not because they doesn't have any, it's just that they don't have to.>>

Bingo. So, how do you know that they have CREATIVITY?? Or, do you think that creative thinking does not need practice?

<<Most of the time, when a kid speaks out his/her ideas, >>

Why does it ONLY has to do with IDEA?? How about how people do their work??

<< Most of the time, when a kid speaks out his/her ideas, parents will just say "just study don't think too much". So in this case, should we blame the parents as well?>>

That is my WHOLE point. Parents are RESPONSIBLE for spoiling their children.

<< As we know, almost 100% parents want their kids to just study to get good result, then can get into good schools, good universities etc.>>

And, that is NECESSARY but INSUFFICIENT for their children survival.

<< Parents last time doesn't stop their kids from thinking creatively, because they only have this mindset "I hope they grow healthily, can enter college/university or not is another word". That is why you, Dreamer, think that people from your generation are generally more creative than kids nowadays.>>

You STILL do not get IT. My parent does not have the LUXURY of protecting me from the environment. For example, if I do not work while I go to college, I do not finish college. I have to help with family business from young age. It is NOT a choice. I either do that or starve.

The PROBLEM now is parent do TOO MUCH. Aka, they spoiled the children. Hence, they limited the children growth and capability.

<<"Lazy person doesn't mean he/she is not creative.">>

Show me how can that be TRUE?? A creative person do things to show their creativity. A creative person is CURIOUS. A creative person do things differently just to see how it turns out. So, how does this translate into a lazy person??

Dreamer

http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Attitude-Le...s/dp/0026071703

This is a good book from a leading researcher on AI.

http://www.wanderings.net/notebook/Main/Bu...reativeAttitude

Some ideas about creative attitude.

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 20 2009, 09:05 AM

bgeh,

I am trying to understand your concept of creativity.

In all your examples, the person that CREATED those items and ideas are CREATIVE. But, the people that use those ITEMS and IDEAS are not creative.

Do you agree with me or as per your opinion, the users are CREATIVE too??

Dreamer

ZeratoS,

If you REALLY are motivated, you will be watching

Learning channel

History Channel

Discovery Channel

National Geographic Channel

Why waste your time on cartoon channel??

Dreamer

jiaxun,

<<They might be lazy in doing things but doesn't mean they are lazy in thinking.>>

How do you know they THINK at all??

<< makes them only have CREATIVE MIND but not action. Still, we don't know the exact situation until 10-20 years later when they've grown up.>>

By that time, they have a HABIT of doing NOTHING. It will be TOO LATE to change.

<< The world is changing fast man... People changing to money-centered. You can't blame them either. Perhaps you will understand more when you've become parent, you want the best for your kids, you want them to be comfortable without worrying about the money and want them to study until they get at least a degree.>>

I am a parent. I want the BEST for my children. I want my children to SURVIVE. Hence, I want them to worry about money. I want them to know how to manage money. My son knows how to play and win Cash Flow 101 since 12 years old.

<< And, that is NECESSARY but INSUFFICIENT for their children survival.
Why not enough for survival? World now is all about qualification. >>

How long have you worked?? I have 20+ years of working experience.

Dreamer

jiaxun,

<<Then how do you know they didn't think at all? As I said, give them the BOD.>>

We (uncles and aunties) had sponsored many of our nephews and nieces to USA for college over the past 10 years. We had seen enough examples and first hand knowledge to know that they do not think.

<<It's never too late to change as long as they change. Unless they die before they change, that we can call too late.>>

Only a young person will say that. But, time and resources are limited. One of our nephew was TOO LAZY. Even after 5 years, he cannot even finished first year college in USA. So, we sent him back. He lost his chance.

<<So you are saying by playing Cash Flow 101 can makes them worry about money? Games will stay as games when they don't involve REAL money. Ask them to play with real money and I will say they are managing money. Even if they use the real money, it will be money from you, the parents, not the real hard earn money from themselves.>>

So, what have your parent done to teach you about money??

<<You have more experience in working more than I do. But is it that WORKING EXPERIENCE the only criteria in assessing someone's thinking?>>

No. But, it shows how much exposure that you have and the level of thinking that you are now.

For example, if you have ENOUGH exposure to ENOUGH people, you will not say

"It's never too late to change as long as they change."

Dreamer

bgeh,

<<It depends on how the users use the end products frankly. But what's your definition of creativity? I'm also interested in knowing yours.>>

In my definition, creator is creative. By default, user is not unless the user use the item to create something out of ordinary.

<<Joey: I believe that I am an extremely idle person, and I think idleness is a wonderful thing that is vastly underappreciated in today's society, given our society's capacity to overproduce goods today.>>

In Malaysia, we have TOO MANY lazy people. I do not think you need to worry about we overproduce anything.

<<Creativity is somewhat proportional to the rate that we progress forward.>>

This is what I disagree with.

I am engineer. I have a sense on how many people needed to create / design something. Nowaday, in most cases, for modern items, only a few people is involved in designing anything. The rest of people is just implementing the design. There is very little to no creativity involved in implementing process.

In fact, with the modern system, we have less and less people involved in any design. The reason why you see a lot of progress is because the productivity of the creators have increased an order of magnitude. The reverse is happening. Because of less people involved in creative process, less people is getting creative at work.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 20 2009, 07:16 PM

ZeratoS,

You are CONFUSED about creativity. I am NOT.

<<People seem to want the short cuts now, >>

There is NOTHING wrong with that if people do not CHEAT. In fact, CREATIVITY is driven by people want BETTER and FASTER result than existing method and process can provide. They are the people that say

"There gotta be a better way!!"

Dreamer

bgeh,

<<Define what 'creative' and 'out of the ordinary' means then.>>

Ordinary is what everyone does. Aka, normal process.

"It's never too late to change as long as they change." by jiaxun

So, you tell me is this a REALISTIC statement?? Anyone with enough experience know that this is FLAWED statement.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 20 2009, 09:02 PM

bgeh,

<<"It's never too late to change as long as they change." by jiaxun>>

The statement is NEVER too late to change.

So, imagine that you are 40 years old and you are TOO LAZY for your whole life, is it too late to change??

Yes, you can change but do you have the energy and resource to start all over again. You have wife, children, old parent to take care of.

<<I've changed from my transition from secondary school to college, so why can't it work?>>

So, you have NO IDEA what you are facing when you are much older.

Dreamer

---

Added on August 21, 2009, 3:17 amjiaxun,

<<I will have to blame it on your kindness in sending your nieces and nephews to US. You spoiled your own nieces and nephews.>>

Bingo. Now, you got IT. I blame my generation for spoiling our children.

<< making Malaysia such a country whereby almost everyone is afraid to speak out for their rights/ideas which ended up our fate controlled by politicians, not the fate of politicians controlled by us.>>

Talk is cheap. We have whole bunch of people complaining about NEP but supporting 90+% companies via ASx.

<< Also, more working experience doesn't mean you've met more people in your life. Even if you've met a lot of people in your life, does this mean that everyone you've met before has an impact on you? The answer is definitely NO. So, no matter how many people you've met, as long as they has no impact on you, how can you count it as EXPOSURE? In this sense, you failed to realise this.>>

The bottom line is VERY SIMPLE. I have a larger sample size than you do. I met more people than you do. My opinion is formed with larger sample size. As to whether it is valid or not, that is another matter.

I have NO IDEA what you are talking about as per IMPACT?

Dreamer


This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 21 2009, 03:17 AM

bgeh,

<<Well since I haven't reached that age, clearly I have no idea, according to your argument. Similarly I could forward that argument that if you've never done such a transition from being lazy and stuff till 40 and then deciding to do something with your life at that age, you also have no idea what such a hypothetical person is facing especially since you don't seem to have been lazy before you were 40.>>

We will know soon enough in Malaysia. We have plenty of people getting paid for doing close to nothing. And, their good time is about o be over. We will know how many of them will adapt.

I had seen enough examples from previous VSS to predict what the future result will be.

<<"It's never too late to change as long as they change." by jiaxun>>

<< The statement is NEVER too late to change.>>

<< 1st part: Yes, but there have always been exceptions, no? So while it is harder than when you were 20, is it ever too late? Extremely doubtful, but we seem to agree on that.>>

If your argument is based on EXCEPTION, then, the statement

"It's never too late to change as long as they change." by jiaxun

is still WRONG.

That statement implies it is NEVER too late.

You are saying,

Sometimes, it is not too late to change as long as they change. Hence, you are DISAGREEING with jiaxun too. And, you KNOW that he is WRONG. And, you do not even need to be that old to know this.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 21 2009, 07:59 AM

Folks,

Depending on what you want to do, you only have a certain time window in your life to do it. If not, it is DIFFICULT and CLOSE to impossible to do it.

A) Physical limitation.

For example, if you want to be a TOP gymnast or dancer, your peak physical capability is before 35 years old or even younger.

B) Environmental limit

In Malaysia, you may not be admitted for further study if you have to start from the bottom.

C) Age discrimination

This is rampant in Malaysia. If you are at 40 or older, you want to change your career path, people may not hire you.

So, it is NOT never to late to change. Sometimes, it is NOT to lo late to change.

For example, we sponsored our nephew for 5 years to study in USA. He was too lazy and he wasted his opportunity. We will NEVER sponsor him again. And, his parent give up on him too. Now, his parent use their savings to travel instead. Yes, he may change and decide to pursue his education later. But, he is much much older and he has to do it without anyone's financial support. But, with ONLY SPM, it is VERY DIFFICULT for him to survive to begin with. Much less talking about saving for further education.

We sponsored many of our nephews and nieces over the past 10 years. 50% of them does not make it. They were spoiled by us and their parents. They are not motivated.

Dreamer

P.S.: My apology if I offended anyone. I am NOT trying to pick on anyone. I am just relying my experience and observation where my generation had spoiled many children. In my nephews and nieces cases, they were so spoiled and lazy that even when they were given FULL SPONSORSHIP to study at USA, they could not handle it. And, they missed their chance. They will not be given another chance again.

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 21 2009, 09:09 PM

ZeratoS,

"There are no mistakes in life, only lessons. There is no such thing as a negative experience, only opportunities to grow, learn and advance along the road of self-mastery. From struggle comes strength. Even pain can be a wonderful teacher"

That ONLY works if people CHOOSE to learn. Most people repeat the same mistake OVER and OVER again until it is TOO LATE.

"The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." — Albert Einstein

We have a clear cut example called NEP in Malaysia. After 30+ years, people still insisting on repeating the same mistake again and again.

Chinese are not blame free either. We complain about NEP. We argue that PROTECTION make people weak. But, we create our own form of NEP by spoiling our children.

You are ASKING the wrong question. Now, if you can FIGURE out why some people CHOOSE to learn and others CHOOSE to repeat the mistake, you have LEARNED something profound about human being. And, isn't what this thread about?? Being CREATIVE aka the ability to think outside the box. Do not accept the normal standard answer and question at its face value. Challenge it. Destroy it. Come out a better answer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Satir

http://www.abacon.com/famtherapy/satir.html

This is the works that Virginia Satir done over 50 years. She is a pioneer on family therapy. I spent 10 to 15 years studying this and I am still learning.


Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 22 2009, 10:51 PM

silverhawk,

Here we go again..

<<Creativity has to exist in people for the sake of creativity alone. Not because its "necessary">>

The ONLY factor that can affect creativity cultivation across average people has to be environmental. That is MY POINT. Average people are NOT willing to be starving artist. In developed country, the government funded starving artist so that they can survive. We are NOT at that level yet.

<<A lot of our technology and our research are not done out of "necessity" but simply due to curiosity. >>

Not in Malaysia. We funded PKFZ.

<<Universities have turned into degree mills and become a substitute for vocational schools, that was never the purpose of a university education. Movies/film/games/etc. have become more focused on making money, rather than being artistic and trying to convey a concept/message>>

Sorry. I got my engineering degree from USA. It is a USA based system with STRONG emphasis on well rounded education. Hence, we (engineering student) has taken plenty of courses in Liberal Arts and Social Science section. As per USA system, many engineering graduates have a lot of hobbies in arts, music, and so on.. Many engineers are amateur artists. The PROBLEM has more to do with British education system than anything else.

As per universities in Malaysia, I do not think the degree is worth the paper that is printed on. Let's not even talk about things like CREATIVITY.

10% of people will always be CREATIVE. 10% of people will NEVER be CREATIVE. It is the 80% aka average people that can be affected by the environment. That is the group that we can do something about.

<<Just like how a mechanic is not an engineer, an engineer is not a scientist, an architect is not artist;>>

This is BRITISH system thinking again. Many engineers in USA are amateur musician, painters and so on. Some of them turned professional in some cases.

Even in Malaysia, in Chinese cultural area, there are plenty of professionals involve in performing arts and so on.

Dreamer

silverhawk,

<< You miss my point. You can be an "amateur" at it, but that's pointless. If your society cannot sustain professional artists, then creativity will slowly die in your culture.>>

1) I do believe "art" in the normal sense is important.

2) However, I have to disagree with you on this one which is only professional artist is CREATIVE.

Dreamer

silverhawk,

He has a VALID point. And, there is a LOGICAL REASONING behind this. Now, instead of arguing with him, why not assume that he is RIGHT and THINK why that might be TRUE??

This is what we call think "outside the box".

So far, we hear a lot of institutionalized aka conventional thinking about CREATIVITY. That is NOT CREATIVE.

Once upon a time, I heard a good definition of being CREATIVE.

Being CREATIVE means that you are capable of

A) Looking foolish

B) Challenging the conventional wisdom.

C) Being WRONG.

Dreamer