Yes, indeed our children are spoofed with everything....but dun forget this phrase that i have mentioned earlier:



This post has been edited by gstrapinuse: Aug 19 2009, 07:32 PM

If that were true innovation would've been massive in the past few centuries and slowed down a lot in the past 50 years or so. This however isn't the case, is it?

People only continue to be innovative to survive in the ever competative market. Lets face it, if you aren't special, what makes you any different from all the others out there? That on its own is already a form of "hardship". It forces people to think outside of the box.

This post has been edited by ZeratoS: Aug 19 2009, 10:18 PM

I disagree about hardship, and competition being the only motivating factors for innovation. Sure it will help the pace of innovation, but surely (as a wannabe scientist) there are other reasons for being 'innovative'?

I agree with your point mainly, but the point I was trying to get across to dreamer is that hardship isn't the only motivator for innovation, and as to your response, even competition isn't the only motivator.

Surely there will be some who are genuinely curious, and so they will play around, resulting in discoveries. But you thrust out a good point there. What other motivators are there to nudge us in the right direction, that is, to be more creative? Already listed are nessacity and competitiveness.

Question: What is the right direction? Is it what the 'market' demands? Is the worth of a 'discovery/innovation' only limited to how much people want to use it?

Now, as to motivators. Well there's always curiousity, as stated above. I could also claim that personal factors can drive innovation, e.g. death of a loved one from some incurable disease leading to someone pushing themselves to try to cure the disease, or something like that.

right direction was metaphorical. I guess I should have phrased it better

I completely forgot personal issues! Yes, you're right. Certain circumstances drive people to bypass that limit and be innovative. But really, I must then ask this ;

How many of our children these days can claim to be put under such circumstances? Some will, yes, strive simply because fate has them more unfortunate than others. I mean, were we to be lost in the forest without any help, surely one will be creative with what he/she has and make the best use out of it. Circumstances denote how we react and how we can capitalize on the situation.

Off-topic, though not completely unrelated. I think the cartoons and music these days are very much trashy. So much so that, many of the shows convey no moral values or anything worth keeping. I think it started when Nickelodeon started showing all those stupid shows that made no sense. Frankly Spongebob Squarepants was the only right thing they did. So where's the creativity in that? Cartoon animators and scriptwriters just throw out some mindless garbage with zero storyline or content and there, that's one episode. They're not even remotely funny to begin with for that matter

P.S : I think cartoons like Dexter's Laboratory really made me want to invent things, there's a motivator right there!

This post has been edited by ZeratoS: Aug 20 2009, 04:17 AM

bgeh,

How many of those innovations are from people that has an easy life??

The TOPIC on this thread is why AVERAGE and GENERAL people lack creativity. It is a MACRO question. It is NOT a micro question. So, does ANY of your answers affects a LARGE enough number of people to affect the CREATIVITY of the population?? The answer is NO.

<<I disagree about hardship, and competition being the only motivating factors for innovation.>>

It is NOT the only factor. There are OTHER factors that affect an individual. But, hardship and competition affects LARGE number of people. The environmental factor affects more people than any other reasons.

You are a SCIENTIST wannabe So, obviously, you know the concept of 80-20 rule and normal distribution.

In this world, 10% of the people will NEVER be creative. 10% of people will always be creative. As to the other 80%, they are AFFECTED by the environment whether they are CREATIVE or not.

This topic is talking about those 80% aka average people.

<<Well there's always curiousity, >>

What is curiosity?? It ONLY exist with people that are NOT contented with what they know and what they are now.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 20 2009, 04:37 AM

dreamer: Firstly, define 'easy'. When you can give me a definition of 'easy' that is somewhat independent of time, i.e. no grandfathers going when i was your age, blah blah blah, it was so blah blah blah harder, and his grandfather saying the same thing to him.

So what's new there? Has it really gotten worse or better from say, the 1800s? In fact I'd argue that creativity has increased, not decreased over time, contrary to the original post's assertion that it is dropping over time instead, even for that average 80% you speak of.

But I'd like to ask: What's wrong with being contented? What's wrong with being idle?

i really hate all of this bs relating to how to become creative and such.
You guys, before we even discuss creativity, we need to know the definition of being creative. Albert einstein, a role model of all that's genius and the only person that is commonly afflitiated with the nobel prize should say "creativity dont exist, its your brain that do all the job of being smart and getting notions that you will regret because it enlarges your list of friends" should he be alive now.
IMHO humans are doomed to be "uncreative" because of peer pressure. When you got too much friends that say OMg this thing is sooo hard and impossible for me to solve and learn, the herd behaviour will sooner or later catch up and messes up your brain thus causing you to sink to their level of thinking.
Solitudity can work wonders for those who wish to find out more about the world, the only thing that you need is interest and determination and a lil bit of autistic thinking.

bgeh,

<< So what's new there? Has it really gotten worse or better from say, the 1800s? In fact I'd argue that creativity has increased, not decreased over time, contrary to the original post's assertion that it is dropping over time instead, even for that average 80% you speak of.>>

<<creativity has increased,>>

For which country?? Which part of the world??

<<But I'd like to ask: What's wrong with being contented? What's wrong with being idle?>>

Then, what is WRONG in being not creative??

Creative is the opposite of contentment and idle. Being creative means not conforming to the NORM. Aka, non-conformist. Being normal means that you are contented and idle.

Dreamer

Evidenced by the recent tech boom, gadgets, the new grandiose buildings sprouting up everywhere with original modernist designs. The number of people driving this, I'd argue is much much larger than the 'creative' class, say 100 years ago, even as a proportion of population. But then again, I have no figures.

I'm speaking in a global context.

Also, I think the initial post has assumed a few things away, specifically I refer to this part:


It is, and always has been the case that the majority of the population doesn't 'push' the boundaries, taking a shot at everything. It's just that we only hear about stories of glory of the past, and not the general story of crippling poverty for almost everybody else, and simply following the way the wind blows, giving us the impression of a 'better' generation in the past which I'd argue is simply a myth.

Or to put the point another way through a rhetorical question: Suppose in 200 years' time you read a history textbook about the 1900s and 2000s. What do you expect you'll learn in the textbook?

1) Man on moon, space exploration, internet and technological revolution changing the world by cutting across boundaries and making information accessible to all
2) More and more people watching TV, getting hooked to the internet, wasting countless hours of time doing absolutely nothing, 'degenerating'



This post has been edited by bgeh: Aug 20 2009, 07:37 AM

bgeh,

<<Evidenced by the recent tech boom, gadgets, the new grandiose buildings sprouting up everywhere with original modernist designs.>>

Now, this is getting interesting. As per your opinion,

A) recent tech boom

B) gadgets

C) the new grandiose buildings

How does those items signifies that many people are creative?? I failed to see those items as a sign of many people are creative.

Dreamer

Actually, we can't really compare the creativity between an individual from 60s-70s and an individual from 90s-00s

My made my statement like such because of it's totally two different world.

No offense Dreamer, but I'm sure you have heard of these:
"One that can do well in the exam doesn't mean he/she is smart, he/she might just be hardworking."
"Smart doesn't mean hardworking."
"Hardworking doesn't mean smart."

The same theory goes to Dreamer, you might be able to work your ass out to finish your college but doesn't mean you are smart or creative, though it can't be deniable that you are hardworking.

You might ask me what is it gotta do with creativity?
"Lazy person doesn't mean he/she is not creative."

What I want to say is, Dreamer blames that kids nowadays have been spoonfed, everything prepared for them etc. But this doesn't mean that they are not creative. They didn't show their creativity not because they don't have any, it's just that they don't have to.

Most of the time, when a kid speaks out his/her ideas, parents will just say "just study don't think too much". So in this case, should we blame the parents as well? As we know, almost 100% parents want their kids to just study to get good result, then can get into good schools, good universities etc.
So, why can this happen? BECAUSE people nowadays only think about "MONEY" therefore doesn't want to expand their mindset, or think creatively. Hence, kids actually cannot present their ideas out until they can work their way out.

Parents last time doesn't stop their kids from thinking creatively, because they only have this mindset "I hope they grow healthily and can help me run my farm/business, entering college/university or not is another word". That is why you, Dreamer, think that people from your generation are generally more creative than kids nowadays.

@Dreamer, I hope you are a parent too and get the message I want to send here.

EDITED: Typo

This post has been edited by jiaxun: Aug 20 2009, 08:31 AM

jiaxun,

<<They didn't show their creativity not because they doesn't have any, it's just that they don't have to.>>

Bingo. So, how do you know that they have CREATIVITY?? Or, do you think that creative thinking does not need practice?

<<Most of the time, when a kid speaks out his/her ideas, >>

Why does it ONLY has to do with IDEA?? How about how people do their work??

<< Most of the time, when a kid speaks out his/her ideas, parents will just say "just study don't think too much". So in this case, should we blame the parents as well?>>

That is my WHOLE point. Parents are RESPONSIBLE for spoiling their children.

<< As we know, almost 100% parents want their kids to just study to get good result, then can get into good schools, good universities etc.>>

And, that is NECESSARY but INSUFFICIENT for their children survival.

<< Parents last time doesn't stop their kids from thinking creatively, because they only have this mindset "I hope they grow healthily, can enter college/university or not is another word". That is why you, Dreamer, think that people from your generation are generally more creative than kids nowadays.>>

You STILL do not get IT. My parent does not have the LUXURY of protecting me from the environment. For example, if I do not work while I go to college, I do not finish college. I have to help with family business from young age. It is NOT a choice. I either do that or starve.

The PROBLEM now is parent do TOO MUCH. Aka, they spoiled the children. Hence, they limited the children growth and capability.

<<"Lazy person doesn't mean he/she is not creative.">>

Show me how can that be TRUE?? A creative person do things to show their creativity. A creative person is CURIOUS. A creative person do things differently just to see how it turns out. So, how does this translate into a lazy person??

Dreamer

http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Attitude-Le...s/dp/0026071703

This is a good book from a leading researcher on AI.

http://www.wanderings.net/notebook/Main/Bu...reativeAttitude

Some ideas about creative attitude.

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 20 2009, 09:05 AM

creativity is NOT just using the luxury/resources of today and make the best of it. Modernity sure has stunted human creativity as most "new" product invented are copycat (with "slight" improvement out of desperation to capture the share of the market) of its predecessors/rivals.

Just because in modern times, the men and women are "force" to learn and use various gadgets and performs seemingly more tasks (quantity) rather than few (but very tedious), doesn't mean they're more creative than their grandparents.

creativity can also mean MAKING the best out of almost nothing to begin.

Well, firstly you'll have to define your notion of creativity. In those examples I used above, the notion of creativity that I used was:

a) recent tech boom: social networking sites, photo sharing sites, etc, etc, all harness the power of the internet. They are, IMO, innovative, and since there has been a hidden thread between the words 'innovative' and 'creative' in this topic, I've implicitly linked them together

b) as for the gadgets, surely things like the iphone would mean for some sort of creativity? or the constant updating and changing of the mobile phone industry with multiple product launches each year, with newer features, and the general trend of convergence represent some sort of innovation, and again, linked to creativity

c) well, by that i mean architecture. there are plenty more architects today who design more aesthetically pleasing buildings, and i'd put that into the creativity book.

But then again, it depends on how you define creativity in the first place.

bgeh,

I am trying to understand your concept of creativity.

In all your examples, the person that CREATED those items and ideas are CREATIVE. But, the people that use those ITEMS and IDEAS are not creative.

Do you agree with me or as per your opinion, the users are CREATIVE too??

Dreamer

There's a myriad of reasonings. In which perspective would you want to view it? Intrinsic core elements (ICE)? Extrinsic core elements (ECE)?

Regards, Joey

---

Added on August 20, 2009, 10:28 amAs the saying goes, "Stagnation is your worst enemy".

Regards, Joey

p.s: Sometimes we learn through understanding of simple proverbs.


This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Aug 20 2009, 10:28 AM

ZeratoS,

If you REALLY are motivated, you will be watching

Learning channel

History Channel

Discovery Channel

National Geographic Channel

Why waste your time on cartoon channel??

Dreamer