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Discussion Heavier Punishment for Red Card Rogues, What do you think?

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TSsolstice818
post Aug 6 2009, 01:10 PM, updated 17y ago

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Don't know where to put this.

QUOTE
FA TO CLAMP DOWN ON RED CARD ROGUES

PLAYERS given red cards could face tougher punishments next season if they have seriously injured an ­opponent.

The FA’s rethink comes ­after high-profile incidents in which players escaped with three-match bans ­despite leaving opponents in hospital.

Birmingham defender Martin Taylor’s horror ­tackle on Eduardo last year almost ended the Arsenal striker’s career.

And last season Newcastle midfielder Danny Guthrie’s lunge broke Craig Fagan’s leg.

“The standard punishment will remain appropriate in the vast majority of cases as this change will only cater for truly exceptional cases,” said an FA statement.

“Independent regulatory commissions will take account of important ­specified factors, including intent, force and injury.”



http://www.dailystar.co.uk/football/view/9...ed-card-rogues/

This post has been edited by solstice818: Aug 6 2009, 01:14 PM
Vagine
post Aug 6 2009, 01:35 PM

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shud be suspended until the victim tackled able to play again. no excuse no appeal. serve them right. serve the coaches right. otherwise there will be lotsa roy keane wannabe out there ruining other players carrier. fck i hate those heavy tackler. very much!~!!!!
TSsolstice818
post Aug 6 2009, 01:52 PM

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Reminds of Reading...Their players took out 2 of chelsea's keepers and Terry between the pole...if my memory serves me right...
madmoz
post Aug 6 2009, 02:56 PM

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I disagree. Having a special rules for 'exceptional' cases equals to more accusations of favouritism and bias.

If anything, the current rules need to be applied consistently across board.
Easier said than done though.
Everdying
post Aug 6 2009, 03:04 PM

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sometimes in a legal tackle...there is no way to predict how the player is going to fall...whether he will take a nice tumble or trip over himself and break his neck.

and its funny seeing how the rules have changed especially over the last 10-15yrs...
...very soon football will be a non-contact sport.
and balls will get so light, that no one fears getting smacked in the face by it anymore.
goalkeepers will be non-existent as the goals keep getting increased in size in an attempt to make the game more interesting again.
bah.
niuchin
post Aug 6 2009, 04:04 PM

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Absolutely. Added punishment can be judiciously meted out with clear video replay. Intent & wanton disregard for safety of other players should be weeded out. Petulant behaviour and retaliation in the form of scything players from behind (results in a lot of achilles tendon injury) should not only be frowned upon but given a straight red card. This is poor sportsmanship.
This is not ice hockey, a milieu where goons and thugs prevail.
Skill & Finesse should be rewarded and encouraged.

Jogo Bonito

This post has been edited by niuchin: Aug 6 2009, 04:09 PM
Vagine
post Aug 6 2009, 04:18 PM

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recent news - ronaldo's leg insured for 100m. right?
wut happens say he get tackled and out for around 1 year, how actually d insured leg claused activates? or.. its insured for any casualties such as those mines workers who was insured for their limbs. any1 care to explain this? sry OT
TSsolstice818
post Aug 6 2009, 04:21 PM

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QUOTE(madmoz @ Aug 6 2009, 02:56 PM)
I disagree. Having a special rules for 'exceptional' cases equals to more accusations of favouritism and bias.

If anything, the current rules need to be applied consistently across board.
Easier said than done though.
*
Yes, I agree with this.It's hard to measure the severity of the tackle might caused(with some players are exceptionally fragile, eg Owen, Degen, Rosicky) or the intention of the player when making the tackles...

This post has been edited by solstice818: Aug 6 2009, 04:22 PM
alien2003
post Aug 6 2009, 04:28 PM

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Red card changes

QUOTE
Tuesday, 04 August, 2009

The major changes ahead of the new campaign include:

    * In exceptional cases only, the ability to reduce, or increase, on application, the standard punishment for red card offences
    * Sanctions, resulting from red cards shown in pre-season friendly fixtures, will not apply to competitive first team games
    * Bringing forward of the yellow card amnesty cut-off date, from end of February to 31 December
    * Suspensions for reaching 5, 10 or 15 yellow cards to begin with immediate effect

As detailed above, and ready for the new season, clubs can now seek a reduction in the standard punishment for dismissal offences where they feel the punishment is clearly excessive.

The standard punishment will remain appropriate in the vast majority of cases as this change will only cater for the truly exceptional cases. It is not intended for this policy to encourage or lead to the systematic, regular review of standard punishments.

When considering such cases, independent Regulatory Commissions will take account of a number of important specified factors including intent, force and injury.

Clubs will not be able to pursue a claim for wrongful dismissal and also seek to reduce the sanction as an alternative. As with wrongful dismissal claims, Regulatory Commissions will have the discretion to increase the sanction if the rejected claim had no prospect of success and/or amounts to an abuse of process.

The FA also retains the power to seek an increase in the standard punishment in respect of dismissals for violent conduct or serious foul play offences where appropriate. The FA shall take account of the same specified factors when considering whether the standard punishment is clearly insufficient – including intent, force and injury. The intention is that the standard punishment will remain appropriate in the vast majority of cases and that the provisions to increase the sanction will only cater for those truly exceptional cases.

In addition, and in order to address uncertainty over disciplinary sanctions in pre-season friendlies, sanctions for red cards shown in such fixtures will not now apply to competitive first team games. Any such sanction will apply only in the same competition (i.e. other friendlies including The FA Community Shield).

However, The FA retains the right to charge players in the most serious of misconduct cases and make sanctions applicable to competitive first-team fixtures if it is felt necessary.

Players from the Premier League through to Step 4 of the National League System, will also benefit from a change to the date that the yellow card amnesty will take effect. From this season onwards, the cut off date for five cautions is now reduced to 31 December.

Previously, players collecting five yellow cards prior to the final day in February were subject to a one-match suspension. This will now only apply if a player reaches five yellow cards before 31 December. Sanctions for players accumulating 10 and 15 cautions remain in place as do their respective amnesty periods.

Furthermore, if a player does accumulate the permitted number of cautions prior to a cut-off date then the suspension will now be automatic as opposed to the current seven day rule.


http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/RulesandRegulat...CardUpdate.aspx

This post has been edited by alien2003: Aug 6 2009, 04:32 PM
niuchin
post Aug 6 2009, 05:07 PM

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QUOTE(Everdying @ Aug 6 2009, 03:04 PM)
sometimes in a legal tackle...there is no way to predict how the player is going to fall...whether he will take a nice tumble or trip over himself and break his neck.

and its funny seeing how the rules have changed especially over the last 10-15yrs...
...very soon football will be a non-contact sport.
and balls will get so light, that no one fears getting smacked in the face by it anymore.
goalkeepers will be non-existent as the goals keep getting increased in size in an attempt to make the game more interesting again.
bah.
*
I trust you are not being facetious.

Sports Injuries are sometimes inadvertent as a result of falls or collisions I agree.. But where there is clear intent of a player attempting to injure an opponent
1. By lunging tackles, ball is out of his reach
2. Hacking from behind
3. Swinging elbows and fisting
4. Two sets of studs completely up to knee high or heavens bound
5. Slide into a planted leg (which has no opportunity to avoid being crunched or dislocated) - with no attempt or chance at the ball.


Over the last 10-20 years players are getting bigger and faster. Quite a number are pumped up one way or another and they let the rage (steroid?) in them get the better of them. They just wanna stop the other player by hook or crook or else they felt embarrassed being beaten. There are a lot of fringe players (Martin Taylor for one) like that in the BPL, especially those from the newly promoted teams.

Imagine a 230lb 6ft plus guy come charging (body checks) at you, without going for the ball. I have received more than a couple of concussions because of that. I have been blindsided too by 2 legged tackles and hacked or raked (that led to my achilles tendon injury) from behind trying to shield the ball. S'times a red card is given, oftentimes a yellow card. The cynic in me think thats why size matters rather than skills.

The game is football (soccer) not American Football! A different mentality.







Jonno
post Aug 6 2009, 06:35 PM

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A good discussion, my view is that football has always been a contact sport. And it should remained that way, but because of the commercialism and other things, it is littered with these things, like diving.

To me, it is very hard to prove intent, as many innocuous looking tackle could be well planned. There are footballers who are very good at this, getting the ball and the man at the same time. However, there are stupid ones who went in with studs up, the infamous scissors tackle and many more aiming to get the man rather than the ball. To me, these should be banned for as long as the law allows it, throw the book at them, and better still, have an independent panel that could decide a certain percentage of the offender's wages to go to the victim, UNTIL THE VICTIM RECOVERS. Let's put it this way, banning them is nothing, even fining them a couple of week's wages is nothing, the best is to hit them where it hurts, make them pay for it.

Having said that, it is too hard to prove a mistimed tackle and a full on want that went with intend to hurt. Paul Scholes would be the best example, everyone knows that he can't tackle to save his life and yet he still dives into those tackles and getting himself sent off. Do you put it as "with intend"? or "mistimed"? This is because with such reputation, if he has an evil streak in him, he'd go in and aim to hurt and then claimed that "everyone knows that I can't tackle, sorry mate..."

The thing is that I'd like football to remain as it is, not into some non contact sport, but if these continues, it might disintegrate into some farce...
Hevrn
post Aug 6 2009, 06:40 PM

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It'll be too hard to consistently mete out the right decisions. Like you all have said, its too difficult to prove intent. Even if a player has lost a ball and dived in recklessly to reclaim it, how do you prove it was coz he lost his head and he wanted to get back at the defender who stole possession? The Eduardo one was extremely careless becoz he had his studs out so high that any contact would be dangerous. But could you say it was intentional? Or was he unlucky? Its just one of those things.

Incidents like the Zidane headbutt or the Bosingwa leg-to-arse would be more clear and heavier punishments should be dished out to discourage unsportsmanlike behaviour.
TSsolstice818
post Aug 7 2009, 12:20 AM

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QUOTE(niuchin @ Aug 6 2009, 05:07 PM)
I trust you are not being facetious.

Sports Injuries are sometimes inadvertent as a result of falls or collisions I agree.. But where there is clear intent of a player attempting to injure an opponent
1. By lunging tackles, ball is out of his reach
2. Hacking from behind
3. Swinging elbows and fisting
4. Two sets of studs completely up to knee high or heavens bound
5. Slide into a planted leg (which has no opportunity to avoid being crunched or dislocated) - with no attempt or chance at the ball.
Over the last 10-20 years players are getting bigger and faster. Quite a number are pumped up one way or another and they let the rage (steroid?)  in them get the better of them. They just wanna stop the other player by hook or crook or else they felt embarrassed being beaten. There are a lot of fringe players (Martin Taylor for one)  like that in the BPL, especially those from the newly promoted teams.

Imagine a 230lb 6ft plus guy come charging (body checks) at you, without going for the ball.  I have received more than a couple of concussions because of that. I have been blindsided too by 2 legged tackles and hacked or raked  (that led to my achilles tendon injury) from behind trying to shield the ball. S'times a red card is given, oftentimes a yellow card. The cynic in me think thats why size matters rather than skills.

The game is football (soccer) not American Football! A different mentality.
*
Wont that considered as mistime?

Sometimes, footballer tend to think that they can reach the ball and mistimed the tackles which results in the injury of the opponents' players.

I do,however, agree that those swinging elbows during corner should be punished..Those are obviously intentional fouls...
Mysterious Dr X
post Aug 7 2009, 12:46 AM

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Pemain macam si Pepe dan Barton patut bayar lebih.

And if you asked me, those diving should get heavier punishment la. Perhaps like Rivaldo's WC theatrics..Add punishment after video evidence.
TSsolstice818
post Aug 7 2009, 04:38 PM

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QUOTE(Mysterious Dr X @ Aug 7 2009, 12:46 AM)
Pemain macam si Pepe dan Barton patut bayar lebih.

And if you asked me, those diving should get heavier punishment la. Perhaps like Rivaldo's WC theatrics..Add punishment after video evidence.
*
Diving , at most get you yellow.Now what they trying to do is make the punishment for red cards rogues heavier...I wonder if that's a great move.... hmm.gif
toshio14
post Aug 7 2009, 07:55 PM

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how do you prove intention anyway? for me you can never prove intention unless the player himself admit to it i.e. Roy Keane

i'd like first and foremost for the rules to be applied fairly across everyone; doesn't matter which team the player plays for and what nationality the player is

This post has been edited by toshio14: Aug 7 2009, 07:56 PM
niuchin
post Aug 29 2009, 02:18 AM

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Now that the 'goons' of Europe are eliminated by Arsenal, an accusation levelled by SFA's Smith, who advocates 'tackling as an art ' over other finesse football skills (Barcelona's passing, CR9 skills etc), is seriously bought by UEFA. Eduardo is facing a 2-game ban charge.
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11945_5519726,00.html
Is it fair?


QUOTE(solstice818 @ Aug 7 2009, 04:38 PM)
Diving , at most get you yellow.Now what they trying to do is make the punishment for red cards rogues heavier...I wonder if that's a great move.... hmm.gif
*
This is a great thread for discussion. Can you add to your title to '...red card rogues and divers'? Thxs.


QUOTE(toshio14 @ Aug 7 2009, 07:55 PM)
how do you prove intention anyway? for me you can never prove intention unless the player himself admit to it i.e. Roy Keane

i'd like first and foremost for the rules to be applied fairly across everyone; doesn't matter which team the player plays for and what nationality the player is
*
IMHO there was gamesmanship on Boruc too. It used to be divers sucker the defence and goalie into taking a penalty. Soon we will have forwards sucked into taking a 'dive' by goalie who goes down and slide into but 'pulled up at the last instant innocently'.

You know by feigning a strike or headbutt, as an example, to draw a 'retaliation'.

What Boruc should have done was to finish and complete the slide tackle (completely legal) and attempt at grabbing the ball. To me it was 50/50. By not doing so an astute referee may give a penalty based on his observation. To second guess him will open up a Pandora's box.

A goalie has every right to go down in his box to go for the ball. If he miss touching the ball but have contact with the opposing player to me that constitute a penalty.

By giving up this right Boruc abused this privilege and bring the game into disrepute.. Don't you think so? IMHO

I don't mind if fellow members here disagree with me. I can dish and also hopefully take it. sweat.gif



This post has been edited by niuchin: Aug 29 2009, 09:56 AM
Everdying
post Aug 29 2009, 05:56 PM

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diving is one thing.
but the rules needs to be changed to take more into account the ball in play scenario.
countless penalties have been given when an attacker gets into the box, sees the keeper coming and realises that he has no shot at goal...so he simply taps the ball away even tho he has absolutely no chance at retrieving it...
then hopes for the keeper to come crashing into him.


niuchin
post Sep 1 2009, 08:43 AM

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QUOTE(ivanchin99 @ Aug 31 2009, 02:46 PM)
Know what's worse than diving?

Something so bad that it could ruin a person's career?

Look away if you cant stomach the sight of it..

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


And you thought what was UEFA doing
*
In a Match between Anderlecht and Standard Liege will be remembered for all the wrong reasons after a horror tackle from Axel Witsel on Anderlecht’s Polish right Marcin Wasilewski.



Thats a blatant stomp.
Marcin was slide-kicking ( not slide tackling) or sweeping the ball (sideways on the turf) with the top of his right foot, noting that his right leg was over and ahead of his lagging left leg when he was stomped by Witsel.

The ball was running away from Witsel he should have let it go. You can see Witsel lift himself up slightly (not to jump over) and come down with his stomp or ramrod leg. [smilie=hate-nono.gif]

The malevolent intent is there whenever you see a stomp or ramrod leg thrust like that.

He should be banned as long as Marcin is out.
nimrod2
post Sep 1 2009, 10:19 AM

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there is already a thread on diving.

http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1148179


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