Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

Humanities Which is more important?, Motive or Consequences?

views
     
TSThinkingfox
post Aug 4 2009, 05:37 PM, updated 17y ago

Le Renard Brun Rapide
****
Senior Member
617 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
If you had to choose either, which would you choose?

If you believe that motive is more important, you believe in Deontology:
QUOTE
Deontological ethics or deontology (from Greek δέον, deon, "obligation, duty"; and -λογία, -logia) is an approach to ethics that holds that acts are inherently good or evil, regardless of the consequences of the acts. A central theme among deontological theorists is that we have a duty to do those things that are inherently good ("truth-telling" for example); while the ends or consequences of our actions are important, our obligation or duty is to take the right action, even if the consequences of a given act may be bad.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deontological_ethics
Deontology itself is divided into Divine Command Theory, Natural Law Theory, Kantian ethics, Non-aggression principle, Pluralistic Deontology (W.D. Ross) and Contemporary ethics.

If you believe that consequence is more important, you believe in Consequentialism:
QUOTE
Consequentialism refers to those moral theories which hold that the consequences of a particular action form the basis for any valid moral judgment about that action (but see rule consequentialism). Thus, from a consequentialist standpoint, a morally right action is one that produces a good outcome, or consequence. Consequentialism is usually understood as distinct from deontology, in that deontology derives the rightness or wrongness of an act from the character of the act itself rather than the outcomes of the action, and from virtue ethics, which focuses on the character of the agent rather than on the nature or consequences of the action itself.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism
Consequentialism is divided into Rule Consequentialism and Act Consequentialism. Act Consequentialism is itself divided into Utilitarianism and Ethical Egoism.

My personal believe is in the Divine Command Theory under Deontology, but I'm still open for discussion. What do you believe in?

Edit: Grammar and initial question

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Aug 4 2009, 11:11 PM
TSThinkingfox
post Aug 4 2009, 10:48 PM

Le Renard Brun Rapide
****
Senior Member
617 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(tgrrr @ Aug 4 2009, 06:16 PM)
Hmm... let's see...

Without motive, I'd wouldn't really want to do anything.
But then when I wanted to do something, it's probably because I want to achieve something i.e. to reach a consequence. So in order to reach a certain consequence, I have motive.

I suppose that makes me in the consequence group, since I can't think of telling the truth just for purely telling the truth's sake without considering the possible consequences.
*
Of course in many things we do, there are motives (e.g. to do charity, to seek revenge, to seek justice etc.) and a consequence (e.g. it backfires on us, we get praised, misunderstanding arises from what we do etc. ). But the question here is not whether our actions a driven solely by motives or consequences. It's about which would you consider as a more important aspect if you had to choose either.

An example of telling the truth without considering the consequences would be Divine Command Theory whereby a person tells the truth because he believe in the command of a higher being (i.e. God) that commands him to tell the truth.

Another example would be through the belief in Kantian ethics whereby a person is compelled to tells the truth because he believes that it is his duty to do so. He prioritizes it as more important than the consequence and therefore he would still tell the truth even though he might have to suffer humiliation or punishment as a result of telling the truth.


Added on August 4, 2009, 11:02 pm
QUOTE(Capricho @ Aug 4 2009, 08:58 PM)
interesting. i never thought of deontology as motive and utilitarianism as consequences before.
from what i know, deontology is duty like you quoted and utilitarianism is define as "greater good for grater amount of people".

i would say consequences is more important than motive although hedonic calculus is kind of flawed (there's no real way to measure "good" or happiness".)

i say consequences is more important because of something like "robin hood"? although the act itself is wrong, the consequences is good, it is justifiable. (cant think of any good example at the moment.)
*
QUOTE
Deontological ethics or deontology (from Greek δέον, deon, "obligation, duty"; and -λογία, -logia) is an approach to ethics that holds that acts are inherently good or evil, regardless of the consequences of the acts. A central theme among deontological theorists is that we have a duty to do those things that are inherently good ("truth-telling" for example); while the ends or consequences of our actions are important, our obligation or duty is to take the right action, even if the consequences of a given act may be bad.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deontological_ethics
According to deontology, acts can be inherently good or evil. Therefore the inherent part of this act would be it's motive (either good or evil). Utilitarianism would concern itself with consequences because it seeks the outcome of the greatest good to the greatest number of people. Since it is objective is in the outcome, therefore it is a form of consequentialism.

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Aug 4 2009, 11:02 PM
TSThinkingfox
post Aug 6 2009, 11:06 PM

Le Renard Brun Rapide
****
Senior Member
617 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(befitozi @ Aug 4 2009, 09:53 PM)
The act does not equal motive.

Like your robin hood analogy. He has a good MOTIVE, which is to help the poor. But bad ACTION, which is stealing. Though consequences are debatable
*
QUOTE(Capricho @ Aug 6 2009, 10:45 PM)
youre right, act does not equal motive.

i took motive as deontological ethics itself.

somehow i feel motive is more important than consequences now, oh how fickle minded can i be.
*
In this case, yes, the act is not exactly equal with the motive. But if you were to ask Robin Hood whether his actions are supportive of his motive, do you think he's going to say that his actions and motives are contradicting each other?

In fact, how many people with sound minds act in a way that contradicts their motives?

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Aug 6 2009, 11:12 PM
TSThinkingfox
post Aug 6 2009, 11:31 PM

Le Renard Brun Rapide
****
Senior Member
617 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Aug 6 2009, 11:22 PM)
http://www.plotinus.com/zen2_copy.htm

Thinkingfox,

I believe in Zen.  Hence, I believe in non-duality.  Your debate / argument is a result of DUALITY.  Two opposing views that appear to oppose each others.  Once you caught in this.  There is NO WAY OUT.

Dreamer
*
In some way I agree with you, if I understood your statement correctly. Often, the motive and consequences do not clash. But I'm creating a scenario in which a person can only choose one because many moral dilemmas arise not from when it's easy to distinguish black and white but when a trade-off is required.

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Aug 6 2009, 11:32 PM
TSThinkingfox
post Aug 7 2009, 03:45 PM

Le Renard Brun Rapide
****
Senior Member
617 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Aug 7 2009, 12:40 AM)
Thinkingfox,

Moral dilemmas only exist because you CHOOSE to believe there is RIGHT and WRONG aka DUALITY.

If you step on a snake, the snake bite you.  Is the snake evil??  No.  Is the snake good?? No.  Morality is irrelevant.

Ditto on most things in life.  It is RIGHT or WRONG depending on your point of view.

Some people believe HONOR is more important than life.  Some people don't.

A) Some people rather starve to death along with their cows. 

B) Some people will kill the cows instead of starving to death.

Who is RIGHT?? (A) or (B)?? Who knows?? It is ALL dependent on your point of view.

Dreamer

All,

I think the question is WRONG to begin with.

A) Treat other like how you like to be treated.

B) Do not force your belief on others.

So, my ABSOLUTE MORALITY is people can believe whatever they choose to believe as long as their ACTION does not affect me.  Vice versa, I would not do anything to AFFECT others unless I am force to defend myself.

Dreamer
*
I agree that the snake example that you've used is outside the moral scope as wild animals are not like humans where they have no moral obligations.

You seem to believe in right and wrong too. Anyway, I accept that you have different view from me although I might defend my belief with reasons. However, that should not be seen as forcing my opinion on others.

 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.0161sec    0.80    6 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 20th December 2025 - 07:56 PM