To what extent that killing human is not a sin?? In measurement of thought and consciousness...Sound kinda pride and naive that human claim they are different from animal....So killing chicken is not a sin....Are we certain all animal do not consist of thought??

My theory is that we are just on a physical body which we call human's body with the potential to develop human's mind that actually make us a human being..It call humanity...I guess is the way society being classes with different level...Maybe there is a price in everyone of us...Oldest die for youngest as usual...Arent animal as well had a price for themselves???

Interesting...for me, all living things in this world deserves the same, even the tiny ants

U might said we are all equal....but not in price...this is nothing to do with buddhism that killing an ant is a sin

A good question.

Well, for me..
It depends on the purpose and perception on why u wanna kill an entity.

I kill a cockroach not becoz for fun, but because it gives harm to my home. Same with other small animals or big animals too.

But this include humans too..
If there is a human who is disturbing the peace until it can jeopardize my existence or my family's existence. I'll kill him.

i find out malay is somehow more open minded than judgemental...LOL...

it's either you kill, or be killed. If any of u are adult enough to be in the real world (work) i mean those in senior executives onwards.. it's either u kill or be killed. junior executives and below will not know this coz most of the time they are killed by the senior execs coz they can't do anything. Even if they wanna fight, also no ability to do so. Same thing like human and animals. So the issue would be.. which level are you kan got the pyramid chart showing chain of food or hierarchy .. err.. something like that?

Great anology chezzball

Same here, just like we human go to the jungle and eaten by a tiger.

sound so cruel...

most religions stated that humans are special kind of organism

non-religious view, humankind have the most developed intelligence, hence they can do anything with the planet while animals can only stand there to watch

i somewhat agree with your opinion. but in this country we have law, by killing him this does not make you any difference between you and him.

i prefer to solve my problem the peaceful way, eg: report to the higher authority

If the person is a direct threat at that very moment, you have both the human right and law on your side in self defense.

INterestin topic here, according to science, humans are also mammals and stil classified as animals, if we learn the cell structure and etc, in the molecular biology term, it has only animal n plant cell. it shows clearly, but the main diff between us n animal is the ability to think, to act and react much more logicly than a normal animal instinct. So we need to be like a human, n not like an animal, that will differentiate us as a much higher organism than others. Animal kill to survive and live, but we humans can survive without killing each other, we have tolerance and etc, so we supposed to be like a human, thats all thought in all religion. Think about it.

survival of the fitest

What make human more deserve to live? What is humanity?

In jungle, there is no such thing as am I sinned if I killed certain thing, this is mere the survival of the fittest.

But what human mostly do is eliminate the whole jungle and turn the world into humanity faster then the planet can cope. And the beauty of it is that this intelligence animal still thinking about if killing an ant is sinful.

None the less, in human point of view, human life is most important, and we prefer to live our lives rather then waste it. And with the ability and the kind of mindset we have, it is really little point to think about that if killing is sinful or not. Jesus is always right about the fact that mankind are all sinned.

So we might as well live the life we want to be.

Jesus also never said anything about killing animals a sin.


This post has been edited by dy/dx: Aug 9 2009, 02:06 PM

We humans are born to be Omnivorous (we eat both meat and vege). Which means god created us to be omnivorous, thus we are licensed to kill (practically by god).

It does not make sense to say that killing is a sin. If killing is really a sin, then all carnivorous being on earth are sinful.

It also summarizes that all vegetarians are against what nature intends to be. We are created (by god) to eat both meat and vege. Why are some so stubborn to take only vege and come up with a theory that taking meat is a sin? IMHO, its totally against what natures intend to be.

Same goes with sex, does god really created us to be abstinence before marriage? We are born to seed while we are able to. If sex is really prohibited before marriage, what about those that do not have spouse? They are too fated not to breed?

Lots of things are unexplainable in this universe. Some claimed that god created this and that, but in fact, a large portion of what we perceive today came from human...

Kinda different view u had, but i do agree with u

Aren't plants a living organism as well?

What do you think when we harvest plants for foods instead? Isn't that killing?

oh, yea. instead of 'killing" those plants perhaps it's best for us to learn how to perform photosynthesis. hmmm, free food for everyone.

Try not to mix religion with science. Things will get complicated when these 2 are mixed.

Sin is just another word created by religion. In science, there is no sin or whatsoever

it felt kinda weird why ppl treated philosophy is something to do with religion...either religion or science , both can be co-existed...Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...but now i am not talking about religion dude...

He is the wisest man


It is all about the survival of the fittest.
In this ecology, there is a thing called food web.

In food web, all the numbers of organisms balance out.
You eat and get eaten.

If you stop a single main species from getting eaten, the whole economy and the whole earth could be destroyed.


If chickens cannot eat worms.. Chickens will be dead
If Foxes cannot eat chicken, foxes will be dead
Later, the whole food web will be destroyed.
Humans will be eventually dead.
organisms need one another.
We indirectly help one another.


God created things in this order.
If you try to change, the whole ecology will be destroyed.

Even bacteria are organisms. We need bacteria to be alive and vice versa. We help each other.




And besides, plants are also organisms.
They also perform all the life processes..
All animals need plants.. They eat plants..

If you don't want to kill, I want you to try stop eating anything for a month



If you say that plants are not alive, why do you say so? Because they dont have brain?
Some animals do not have brain too.. Animals such as jellyfish and starfish have a decentralized nervous system without a brain.

Some plants can trap and eat animals too.


To sum up, saying we can't eat living things is very vague and nonsense.


We can eat living things.

But we can't kill them unnecessarily.






This post has been edited by prolog: Aug 10 2009, 04:35 PM

I heard religion without science is blind before but never heard Science without religion is lame. haha...

Or is it other word that should replace the word 'lame'???

---

Added on August 10, 2009, 11:19 pmWhere is the word 'sin' come from actually??? From religion or rules made by human? Both of them made such word to protect human from being kill by another one. If not, I might be a crazy murderer right now...

And we pay to eat chicken...

Btw, I read an article said that pig is the smartest because they know they gonna eaten by human. So, they eat and sleep only and do nothing. From here we can see that pig can think and accept their fate to be eaten by human.

This post has been edited by Dark Lord: Aug 10 2009, 11:21 PM

This is Evolutionary Theory

you guys mind need to read Darwinian theory

actually, plant do kill another plant too.
lets say, when a big leaf fall on a small plant, the small plant cant get any sunlight, yea, the big tree with big leaf kill the small plant.

by all mean, strongest survive, why human can kill chicken? bcoz human stronger
Why Army able to kill citizen, coz army is stronger.

Sin is a term used mainly in a religious context to describe an act that violates a moral rule, or the state of having committed such a violation. Commonly, the moral code of conduct is decreed by a divine entity, i.e. Divine law.

I have no religion, we are not blind but neutral or naturally born without have to narrow down to an ideology forced upon by race or society. I am lucky enough to have that choice. Luckily, science you said is blind otherwise restricted by religion.

LOL that doesn't prove that pig can think. You've made a false assumption/conclusion.

Listen to my humble comment.
Animals can't think. Only humans can think because they are special. Humans are made to rule, to govern and control the universe as they can. And among humans there are rulers.

Proof?
1) If animals, can think, why they don't think to enhance their life like human do?
2) Humans can kill more animals(tigers, birds, crocs..etc) but they don't. Why? Is it because of the "rules" made by human's rulers? Or is it because of the bad consequences seen by humans of their acts? Or is it because they have the emotion not to kill them? The answer is.. depends on the person among the humans itself. Because humans sometimes can think deep, sometimes cannot. Sometimes affected by emotion such as symphathy, greed, love, hatred.

So is human same as animal? Physically inside, yes comparing to some animals. But animals can think? No. Only human can. So we can't compare animals' rules with humans' rules.

Your definition of 'think' is???

For me, they can think, just that not as intelligent as human.

lol

if darwin was right about life and all that is weak is very well sacrificial for the strong. then why are we preserving the weak?

the famine plague nation, the dying organisms and what not, we should just let them die their destined death.

I think you will be surprised to find that contrary to your believes, animals are more intelligent than you think. Who says they do not have the capability to have emotions?

Human is just one type of animal, the difference is intelligence and that is all.

i strongly believe,

a human without education / social teaching, is nothing much difference than the animals.

throw a baby to the jungle will raise him to be an animal.

Intelligence is what makes us difference, if we didn't use it, we are not.

This post has been edited by mindkiller6610: Aug 12 2009, 12:35 PM

I don't say animals don't have emotions. They have. I only say they don't have what humans have, the ability to think. And because humans sometimes affected by emotions and sometimes can't think right, rules are made to control them. Like they can't kill others even if they are capable to do it.

rules are created in civilization.

civilization are created when 2 or more human beings able to communicate and socialize.

u don't see lion killing lion often, it is the same thing..

Human is cancer to the Universe, beginning to infect neighboring planets (atom / cell).

Very true, i love your ideology. Its sad that a particular group of religious ppl just too narrow in their thinking (conservative in another word).
I agree that science and religion can indeed co exist, but science can just progress above everything human can ever imagine, this will leave religion thousands of years behind trying to catch up but failed miserably.

Science can change when society changes, religion try to suppress changes when society is changing. Society becomes more and more complicated, science progress further but religion is holding back the progression of the whole system. Sooner or later the divide between religion and science will be wider and wider until 1 day when science can proof the origin of the universe that renders religion to be a myth.

from my point of view, killing is not a sin when it becomes a necessity, that is, killing in the name of survival. Self-defenses, food crisis..etc. that is what ecology is all about.

on the other hand, i believe that none of us here has the right to claim lives of others, that include murderers. Why? Simply because killing is a sin. Bear in mind that executing and killing share one objective. We may incarcerate him to prevent him from further sinning. BUT we just dont have the right to kill. Regardless of religions, ONLY nature can claim lives. Everyone deserves a second chance. I'm not in any way defying the justice system. It is undoubtedly necessary to put sinners behind bars for correctional purposes. The right to claim lives still belongs to NATURE(alter this to whatsoever term as u wish)

action in itself does not consitute sin. The intention behind it does.

Well, 'sin' is a subjective construct of a conscious mind, and science can view it as such (and it does, in epistemology and more commonly in the social sciences).

In any case, this is pretty much the same for the issue at hand. 'Humanity' and 'life' are subjective constructs. Some societies view life as beginning after a child reaches puberty.

Therefore, each individual can subjectively define what is life, and what lives are permissible to be killed. Hell, even 'killing' is subjective. There are Guinean tribes that don't consider and individual dead until several days after being medically defined as dead.

But while every individual can take his own interpretation, when humans come into a collective, a natural occurrence is that a common set of rules are imposed on the collective. Hence, the willingness/unwillingness to kill animals etc. etc.

cheers

Imagine a sperm & egg that carry the full body system and your facial characteristic to create a human, what is this about who we are to kill???

The person we are today is different a few years from now, have you ever think of your childhood and laugh to yourself how silly you are? You will think about what you say and do today when you are old and feel the silly.
Let me ask this question like what is human? How do you define what you are instead of who, the can or cannot do, right and wrong is just code of conduct and ethics we follow to avoid killing each other.

pesky insects such as cockroaches shudn't be let alive!

This post has been edited by slushie: Aug 20 2009, 06:12 PM

So, how to eliminate them? Who is to decide what should or shouldn't deserve to live anyway. I hate cockroach too unless you mean human cockroach.

Yeah. Nobody has the right to decide what lives and what dies.

Btw, i hate hate hate cockroaches that FLY!

What is right or wrong is simply a border set by mere humans to separate themselves from others. To begin with, we are all animals, science classify all of us as animals and under the species Homo Sapien. "Human" is the common word that is created because we humans think that we are gifted and among the supreme evolutionary species which succeed other by having advanced intellectual capabilities.

What makes us truly special is that we are supreme in number, and we are far more advanced than other animals. Yet this does not give us the power to decide on other animal lives just because they are not like us.

When humans evolved from the typical animal kingdom, we advanced in our minds, but we lost our ancestral instinct. What we commonly refer to as sixth sense, sometimes subconsciously we are able to feel when we are being watch, folllowed or when our lives are in danger.

Most animals have a very strong instinct, it's like they are able to heed natures' warning just before it happens.

Can we really consider ourselves the next evolutionary stage or are we still incomplete? When we kill another animal in the name of god, we are the self proclaimed god. I simply see ourselves as the dominant species in the world, with that claim, survival of the strongest seems fit in our situation!

Humanity can have so many meaning, depends on what is being used for. Human nature or human species as a whole.

Unless you agree that being killed is suffering, horror, fear, by putting yourself in their shoe, then you will agree that any action that create suffering, horror and fear to another human (or yourself) is a sin. However if you think that being killed is relief, detachment, end of worldly suffering by putting yourself in their shoe, well, you will just step on it like a cockroaches. Well, in emergency or reaction for self defense, your mind will set priority to self survival, relieving of self suffering and fear, thats why you dont feel the sin at that moment.

The Realization of "sin" also depends on how you are mentally and emotionally attached to a particular subject, either by realizing the outcome of action or pre-bounded by rules of religion, politics and understanding. Without attachment, there would not be realization, and hence consciousness cannot be achieved.

Talking of is killing is a sin, you must first realize that there is a fear of sin, then you must agree that fear is an outcome of sin, then you must react by reducing fear by reducing sin, and if the killing created fear for you, you will stop the fear with not killing, and hence you are not sinned. Well this is explanation by fear. As fear is the summation of all consciousness, attachments, understanding and rational thinking. Without fear, well, anything is possible. And what makes a gladiator a human killing machine, is they knows no fear.

If explanation by its ultimate purpose of life, sin will be in hierarchy. Your conscious mind will tell you that killing an ant that infest your sugar is sin less than killing a human that infest you backyard. Well, rather saying killing will cause more pain for a more intelligent species than a less intelligent species, (pain is to the nerve innervation, and it is relative, and stimulating one nerve of a one nerve organism is equally as stimulating thousand nerve of a thousand nerve organism), you would say that pyramid of food is the source of why organisms above kills organisms of the level below.

If explain in terms of moral judgment, sin becomes rather relative. Moral origins from self. If you think that you can strongly support your reason for an action done, it had not been sinned.

No matter SIN is stated by laws of religion , or SIN is generated by fear , or SIN is relatively realized by moral judgment, "SIN" is still "the wrong doings".

And only if you believe in that you have SIN , than you have the faith.

Well, as i write this reply, My awareness tells me that i had think of this issue for one hour, hence i have SIN to my parents , since next week is my final exam and i should study hard as agreed to my parents , no more spending useless time on internet. Well ...

Are we human... or are we dancers?

To all,

Does this thread belong in the "PhD" forum?

TS can't even differentiate the word "Human" from "Humanities", and TS doesn't even understand that "Humanities" is man-made, aka ARTIFICIAL, while Human ain't

This thread looks more like a /k/ stuff than a "PhD" stuff

For the scientists, we are human and human is just a name given to a kind of creature that looks like you and I. But for the sorcerers, we are consciousness and so are all the living things out there. We , the so-called human, have developed our consciousness to attention, that's what makes us quite different from other living forms in this world.

I don't hate ants, cockcroaches and most insects although they look ugly or maybe intimidating. I don't hate people who are constantly killing these small creatures using the hands given to them by the creators. If they kill them, I must say that the time those small insects have in this earth has run out and so will we, the human, run out of time in this marvelous one day. We become their hunters and one day we will become the preys of other hunter too. This is a game and this game would never end.