This young man does not cares about what uncle like me thing lah. And I doubt old people can change young people thinking overnight.

And by the way, he is thinking about long term, getting a gf (and maybe start a family?)

I agree with you on the above statement.

I am sure many people appreciate Dreamer's views and many of his constructive comments but not everybody want to be "taught" by him. Yah, Dreamer, just state your points, reasons and advise if asked for and try not being a virtual father to everybody.

Firstly, TS started thread about not getting bank loan approved, he is not asking if he should get or afford the car RM43K or whatever. So those telling him he should not get the car because of this and that is going OT.

Secondly, I don't think TS gives a damn what other says, he knows what he wants. And you see from TS signature, this young gentleman is doing business at garage sale which shows that he is doing more than just saloon work. Moreover, is his money, how he wants to spent it is his prerogative. We can advise but decision is his.

Thirdly, in my opinion, those who criticise TS's father (a third party to this thread) without any knowledge of his background and reasons for being a guarantor is way out of line. Who are we to talk about other people behind their back. Nobody asked your views about what his father did was right or wrong so keep you opinion on third party to yourself. Who are we to judge another human being.

Last but not least, most of us here comment based on things from our angle and limited experience only, but some here can predict & confirm the future of another human being


I was about to post when Dreamer posted above, guess above comments applies to me too.

By the way,want to share what criticism you get for being FRUGAL? What game? Who is criticizing you here? So you come here to loose steam because you are being criticised and that gives you the right to criticise other

Huh, maybe you should go kopitiam start a thread on parenting.

From my observations, what he meant was to advise Thread Starter on his matter.

Parenting is dependent on individual. How and what methodologies used is throughly different from one individual to another. Wrong or right is upon your own perception.

In relation of the father, I would concur that the father is just a third party in which he is involved in this context of his son wants to purchase a car.

In addition, uncle "dreamer101" did mention to someone to make a stand. I think it's reasonable because what I believed is, "dreamer101" wants a direct, cut the crap answer.

Anyway, he's not venting off here. Being an uncle himself is natural. Maybe he's a strict but honestly speaking, he has his knack of attitude. Everyone has, right?

Well, I've been reading some of his postings in LYN, especially in RWI section, most of the postings were made based on his experience and knowledge.

Heck it! If only we can open up our minds and think positively and weighing in the values behind those sentences...HaiZZZ.

Regards, Joey

p.s: Regarding his father's decision: A straight answer from me is a NO. His father didn't make a sound decision upon being his son's guarantor. (I will not elaborate this further on the Why? because yu already knew the answer. Have a good day everyone.

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Jul 11 2009, 12:16 PM

Bros, it would seemed that many have well intentions in adv TS to reconsider his intentions etc etc but hopefully no one will lose sleep over this as this has gone over 8 PAGES!!!!

Cheers!

Joey Christensen,

Thank you. Finally, someone get straight to the POINT.

Folks,

People LEARN by example. This is an example. By looking at the example and discuss the PRO and CON, you FIGURE out what is the BEST decision.

Be a guarantor to someone has been saving very little money is NOT a good decision. Especially, if that loan increases the expenses SUBSTANTIALLY. Now, if you want to argue with me on that, show me WHY this is a GOOD DECISION.

If you DO NOT HAVE the experience and knowledge to judge, you could just keep QUIET. Do not assume OTHERS are not capable to do so.

Now, if you say that there are INSUFFICIENT information to judge, state specifically what INFORMATION is missing. Or else, you are just blowing a bunch of hot air.

So far, I have seen many people objecting to my position by blowing a lot of hot air.

My goal is to EDUCATE. I DO NOT CARE if people do not agree with me. But, they have to THINK and REASON.

Dreamer

P.S.: Somebody stated that TS has a lot of side income. So what?? This does not change the BASIC FACTS.

A) TS has been saving very little money. So, current income (basic + side) is insufficient.

B) In case that anyone is sleeping, the ECONOMY is doing badly and getting worse.

In business term, TS should survey his market (girls) first before committing half of his income into this venture. Is he financially stable to support all the money-consuming activities like eating in fancy restaurants, outings, shoppings, cinema, goodies etc for at least 6 - 12 months for he to get back his return on investment (getting laid perhaps)? Now, would he again ask his mum to be his guarantor if the girls only desire to be driven only in Toyota Vios or Honda City?

All I am stating here is, TS's thinking is immature in acquiring a big liability just for the sake of "girls only sit in big oversea car!". Now who says that I can make out with a girl riding on a bicycle only? It is a matter of your own mindset that achieve the impossible. And this is a fine example that TS's mindset fails, and his dad fails to correct him.

This post has been edited by dreamKrusher: Jul 11 2009, 10:41 PM

Dreamer,

What you said in terms of the TS financial position based on his 1st post here I would agree with you BUT instead you started criticizing TS's father. Who are you to talk about another person which you have never met. Earlier someone did say nasty things about your father too which I also taught was not appropriate.

Firstly, TS did not want to be educated by you nor need you to be his father figure. You can advise him but as another member also mentioned, keep other people father (or mother) out of the discussion.

Secondly, you mentioned "People that are FRUGAL and try to raise the children the RIGHT way get plenty of criticism from those that SPOILED their children. So, it is a FAIR GAME to return the favor." From this statement itself it kind of indicated to me that subconsciously or consciously you have thing against other people spending money on their children. Maybe you were educated well as a child to be frugal but I doubt it as you mentioned before you have a rich brother that spoils his child (to make a point on your claim like father like son statement is so incorrect because you and your brother are of different character). Please lah don't bring your case and assume everyone else is the same as you or your family (not nice of me to talk about your family which is a private matter right - same applies to you not to talk about other people family matters).

From you previous posts, I can understand where you are coming from as you had to "work hard" your way to where you are now (which I truly respect) but that's your experience and does not necessarily applies to others.

I can't answer for TS's dad why he did so. But I would definitely be guarantor if my son was to come to me and ask me be a guarantor to get a Nadia.

Here's how I see it:

1) TS is in Sarawak. I have been there few times and Kuching itself is huge. A car is necessary from moving from point A to B, more so if town to town.

2) TS is working, he said hairstylist, however that is not the only job. He is doing online business at garage sale, he also have a restaurant and from the way he post, looks like it is only operating at night which means he should be going home late. I respect TS because for his age, he is already having his own businesses.

3) Please note here, he did not asked his father to buy him the car, he has the confidence that he is able to repay the loan himself within 4 years but was rejected (not surprised with his official income). So he approach his dad to be his guarantor as he has no alternatives. In fact he actually mentioned he has to work harder now with the car. Fact, TS is a businessman and not a salary man.

4) TS drives an Iswara. Having car problems. Go read his previous posts.

5) TS claims that with a Nadia he can get girls............. well maybe it is true in his case as getting the car will increase his confidence. It is not like he wants a Nissan Fairlady or RX8. The second hand car (Japanese imported which should be reliable and low maintenance) is about the same price range as Myvi and even cheaper than Gen2.

OK, let us assume now I am his father and TS is my son (I conclude TS as an independent person and working his butt off just like Dreamer when he was about the same age in U except both priorities are different )

First of all I have witnessed myself twice in front of my eyes where Iswara lost control when braking during light drizzle condition and on both occasions the cars were badly damaged when hit the divider. I even know that people have died in Iswara.

Secondly I myself have collided with a Toyota, My front directly into the front right of the Toyota Vios (before anyone flame me, not my fault as I had the right of way on a main road (Persiaran) and the lady driver came out from a junction without looking). The toyota was badly damaged at the front right side and the driver came out without a scratch.

Based on just the above two examples, if my son says he wants to upgrade from an Iswara to a Toyota Nadia, I would definitely agreed to be his guarantor immediately. Heck, I would not even let him drive an Iswara in the first place. Being a father, one does not only look at the financial side (if he can afford it) when security and safety of his children are at stake.

Now Dreamer, knowing about Iswara now, would you be your son guarantor if he was TS and that you have confidence in him paying the loan? Or put in in another way, what if your son had asked you the same as TS, and you not willing to do so (everybody knows you are financially well off and owing a bank as you like to say) and he was involved in an accident and badly hurt. Would you not think in your concious mind if the outcome of the accident would have been different if you had agreed that your son getting the Nadia instead?

Being frugal in one thing, compromising your children safety for the sake of money is another thing.

This post has been edited by Gen-X: Jul 12 2009, 12:37 AM

To look at it from 2 separate viewpoints:

a) If TS' dad knows full well what being a guarantor means, that should his son be incapable of servicing the payments he (the dad) will have to pay up. If he knows this and is fully capable of repaying a 42k loan or whatever residual, then on the premise of according better safety to his son, he has acted rightly and within his financial means.

b) If TS' dad knows jack about what being a guarantor entails, and relented because he thinks his son is able to service the loan but he himself isn't able to, then he has taken a huge, uninformed risk. He might have been motivated to assist his son to get ahead and for the son's safety in a better car, but he may have committed a grave financial mistake.

Since we do not know the real position of TS' dad on the above two scenarios, it would be imprudent to prejudice against the dad who doesn't know that his good name is being trampled on in an online forum. It would be fair to take pot shots at his son though, since he didn't come back in to defend his dad's name.

Whatever la.

Folks,

I had covered BOTH circumstances. Let's start with Gen-X's statement.

<< Now Dreamer, knowing about Iswara now, would you be your son guarantor if he was TS and that you have confidence in him paying the loan?>>

If my son has not been saving much money, I would be STUPID to believe that he has ability to pay additional $1000 per month of expense. Now, if I am concern about his safety and I think he need to drive a better car, I would either

<<B) Help pay the down payment or buy the car. In either cases, the monthly payment will be lowered to sustainable level.>>

Can you imagine the STRESS that you put your son through by struggling to pay car payment every month?? Do you THINK that will not put him in DANGER while driving a lot.

Then, go to gregy's post,

<<a) If TS' dad knows full well what being a guarantor means, that should his son be incapable of servicing the payments he (the dad) will have to pay up. If he knows this and is fully capable of repaying a 42k loan or whatever residual, then on the premise of according better safety to his son, he has acted rightly and within his financial means.>>

Based on all available data, the probability of the TS to service loan is low.

And, if the father is financially capable to handle the 42K, why guaranteeing the loan to begin with?? Just buy the car. Or, pay a BIGGER down payment to lower the monthly payment to $500. Now, because of the 4 years' car loan, the father is on hook for a LARGER AMOUNT.

Now, the ONLY LOGICAL explanation of why the FATHER act this way even if he is financially capable is, he wants to taught his son a lesson. He wants his son to learn how painful it is to be seriously in debt. The father may ended up paying a few K extra in interest when the son cannot pay but the father think that this lesson is worth a few Ks.

Dreamer

P.S.: I had a cousin died of car accident and left a wife and 3 children. The reason was he was driving around trying to raise money to cover his soon to be bounced checks. He was in financial trouble. BTW, the good car that he was driving did not save him either when he collided with a truck.

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Jul 12 2009, 07:53 AM

TS, i recommend u to buy 2nd hand car.
It's way cheaper and worth it.

See, you also got a logical explanation why the Father agreed to be guarantor. So the point is none of us knows why the father agreed to do what he did; therefore not appropriate for us to criticize a third party without knowing. And I would agree with your statement "the father may ended up" which does not necessarily means he will and is not like saying he is stupid and sure to be in debt.

Anyway, glad to know that you are now willing to consider paying down payment for your son's car if necessary.

As for your cousin, sad to hear. Even with MB E and S class people have died but an Iswara is a tin can and very light. I myself and my wife have been in separate major accidents and therefore car safety features is of upmost importance. Well the details of the accidents is for another thread.

Gen-X,

<<therefore not appropriate for us to criticize a third party without knowing.>>

Who say so?? That is STRICTLY your opinion. You had criticized my posts without offering a PROPER counter argument. And, I have to come up a LOGICAL EXPLANATION for you.

It is EQUALLY wrong to defend a third party without PROPER THINKING.

I had achieved my GOAL: which is to EDUCATE people to THINK.

Versus your post aka dogmatic.

<<not appropriate for us to criticize a third party without knowing.>>

But, cannot offer any LOGICAL EXPLANATION why that should be so. You SHUT OFF thinking. You STOP people from THINKING. How does this help ANYONE??

Dreamer

Just for the record, I am not criticizing all your post, in fact I agree with you in respect to your comments on TS case which are very constructive and informative to others BUT once again who are you to judge TS's father another human being.

Anyway, whenever others don't see your way you want to educate them to see you way. Your way is always right because you think you are father to everyone. Not everything is about money lah.

At least I am glad to know you are willing to consider getting a safer car for your son. Hope I educated you well in respect of your children safety

Guess is a game for you here to criticise others.

Ever heard of the proverb before

"If u dont have a head big enough,then dont wear a big hat"

With your meagre reported salary of RM1200,banks are reluctant to approve your loan amount.I dont even think they will approve your RM35k loan for Myvi too so you only can buy a kancil at most.If u know people,they can pull strings for you when buying the new car.

Haiz,people like you really I wanna smack head.Whats wrong with driving a kancil to work.If u want to think big and drive nice car,go find a better job.Before I start earning more than RM5k,I only drive a old battered Saga passed down from my father and I never rant bout it.It serve its purpose.

First they approve based on this criteria.They give u rating based on the number of YES for the points below

-Whether u have a saving account with them with amount more or less equivalent to loan amount
-Whether u have a serviced credit card with high credit limit with other bank
-Whether u owned any property or in possesion of other car
-An active current account with high transaction
-FD account with the bank u want to loan from
-They check CCRIS for your record on previous defaulted loan and etc
-The popularity of the car and resale value and easiness to sell of later
-Amount in KWSP account

Gen-X,

Do not even get me started on children safety. Most Malaysian parents failed this role. We are the ONLY few parents that has child seats for our children when they were young. Now, they are older and they buckle their seat belts when they are in the car. We CARE about our children safety MUCH MUCH MORE that most Malaysian parents.

You know that I am telling the TRUTH.

One of my cousin's daughter died in a car accident because she did not buckle her seat belt. She flew out of the car and cracked her head on a rock. She was 21. The good car did not help her either without a buckled seat belt.

Given that MOST Malaysian Parents do not EDUCATE their children to buckle seat belts. And, they do not buckle their own seat belt too. I seriously DOUBT that they care about their children safety to begin with.

Dreamer

Hah, now bashing other Malaysian parents ar?

You ensuring your kids wearing rear selt belts is excellent. Don't know about your extended family and do not wish to comment. FYI, when I got my first child I bought a child seat that cost roughly half my monthly pay 16 years ago. Maybe it is because you and me were educated in US where safety issues are a big thing. My sister (also educated in the US) practice the same for her children i.e. child seat and wearing seat belts. All my children buckle their seat belts in the back and FYI me too (kiasu to max, hahaha). And we are Malaysian parents. Actually if you go to the malls in Klang Valley, you will notice that many people do have child seat in the car and nowadays the seats are easily available in stores which means people are buying them. Please lah don't once again start bashing other parents and making your own assumptions.

Anyway, I was not talking about other parents. I was "educating" you about Iswara and pointing out to you that being a father safety issue is more important than money And I think I got the message thru to you because you did mentioned you will not pay for you child car sometime back in another thread and now you willing to pay downpayment I want to "educate" you further, if your car don't have air bags, I strongly recommend that you get one with air bags for better safety. FYI my car got 8 air bags (2 front and 6 windows). But do note air bags only works with seat belts, there is a case where an air bag actually cost fatality because the air bag "push" the driver up (he was not wearing seat belt) and his head smash thru the sun roof!

In respect of your last statement above "Malaysian Parents do not EDUCATE their children, as I mentioned earlier, maybe you should go start a thread at kopitiam about Parenting.

Gen-X,

<< Anyway, I was not talking about other parents. I was "educating" you about Iswara and pointing out to you that being a father safety issue is more important than money And I think I got the message thru to you because you did mentioned you will not pay for you child car sometime back in another thread and now you willing to pay downpayment >>

You do not READ my post carefully. I am VERY PRECISE on what I am saying. I am saying in this PARTICULAR instance IF I am supporting the TS to get a car, I would either buy the car or help lower the car payment to a sustainable level.

If this is MY SON and he is ONLY earning RM2K per month, I would stop him from getting ANY car until he saved enough for a HUGE DOWN PAYMENT. If the bank cannot approve him for a loan, he do not deserve a car. Definitely, I will not be a guarantor for his car loan.

I drive a PROTON WIRA. I ONLY have 5 minor car accidents across 20+ years of driving. I drove DEFENSIVELY.

Dreamer

dude get a life

when i 22, i earn 5~6k(fixed) work in US company. and still need guarantor
ur too young, bear with it

call urself lousy 1st b4 call viva/kancil lousy

u earn 5k-6k 1 month still need loan??? dont be stupid la!!1

Why not? Cars cost 10s of thousands. And people need to save money as well. Can't just dump tens of thousands away in cash unless there's already a big savings buffer.

waahh.. all these yip-yakking.. will be rated as too hard-core for ts.


for dreamer..
i doubt you can talk people into thinking. maybe someday, taking an introspective look back at what you've done... (no doubt, each person with their own genuine intention for good).. likely comes to just a negligible naught at influencing the larger mindset.. because inertia is a very difficult force to disturb. (newton law of motion #1)

This post has been edited by lwb: Jul 16 2009, 02:20 PM