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 Is this possible?

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TSkarhoe
post Jun 16 2009, 02:34 PM, updated 17y ago

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Hi guys

I heard of this brilliant idea which got 2nd placing in a business plan competition.

It's about a handphone which can be charged using sound energy. That means, as we speak during a conversation, the phone will automatically charge itself, hence no need for batteries replacement.

Is it possible? I'm quite skeptical.
ganabathi
post Jun 16 2009, 03:18 PM

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it is possible.. energy is sumthg that cant be destroyed but can transform to other energy..

like kinetic energy to heat energy or electric

so mayb this guy manage to transform the sound energy to electric energy or heat energy.. but i dont know how he did it..
TSkarhoe
post Jun 16 2009, 03:20 PM

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Yeap, but if it's possible, that means we can put this devices along the highway, cars engine produce sound energy after all, and this energy can light up the street lamps.


ganabathi
post Jun 16 2009, 03:22 PM

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ok, u make ma brain to work now... let me as u sumthg... sound is energy or wave?
TSkarhoe
post Jun 16 2009, 03:23 PM

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Sound energy, but travels via wave, longitudinal wave IIRC

But sound are actually produced via vibrations, hmm

This post has been edited by karhoe: Jun 16 2009, 03:24 PM
-Y-
post Jun 16 2009, 03:28 PM

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wait. then it will transform the sound energy to kinetic?
ganabathi
post Jun 16 2009, 03:39 PM

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ok i agree sound is created by vibration,.. so the kinetic energy from the vibration can transform to heat energy there is a possibility..




Cheesenium
post Jun 16 2009, 03:51 PM

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QUOTE(ganabathi @ Jun 16 2009, 03:22 PM)
ok, u make ma brain to work now... let me as u sumthg... sound is energy or wave?
*
It's both.

Sound is an energy propagate via wave form.
TSkarhoe
post Jun 16 2009, 03:56 PM

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I think that it might work, but I agree with one of you that most of the energy will be lost as heat.
ICDeadPeople
post Jun 16 2009, 03:56 PM

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QUOTE(Cheesenium @ Jun 16 2009, 03:51 PM)
It's both.

Sound is an energy propagate via wave form.
*
True.
Thats why sound cant travel through vacuum, since its need a medium to transfer energy (via vibration).
3dassets
post Jun 16 2009, 04:06 PM

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Have you guys use cordless electric tooth brush that charge using magnetic vibration to osculate the rechargeable battery? I use a drawing device Wacom and its electricity come from the board that transmit microwave to power the pen.

This sounds like headphone in reverse, voice or sound vibrate the diaphragm and generate electricity like a dynamo concept, I think.
Cheesenium
post Jun 16 2009, 04:11 PM

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QUOTE(3dassets @ Jun 16 2009, 04:06 PM)
Have you guys use cordless electric tooth brush that charge using magnetic vibration to osculate the rechargeable battery? I use a drawing device Wacom and its electricity come from the board that transmit microwave to power the pen.

This sounds like headphone in reverse, voice or sound vibrate the diaphragm and generate electricity like a dynamo concept, I think.
*
Heard of it before and it's working now.Probably a prototype now.

If im not wrong,it just charge anything in that radius,like handphones,ipods,laptops etc.

Awesome shit.
-Y-
post Jun 16 2009, 04:20 PM

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but do u guys really think, it is a better energy source than battery?
Cheesenium
post Jun 16 2009, 04:35 PM

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QUOTE(-Y- @ Jun 16 2009, 04:20 PM)
but do u guys really think, it is a better energy source than battery?
*
Sound is everywhere,so,IMO,it's a better source of energy.

Still,how much energy you can generate?
Joey Christensen
post Jun 16 2009, 04:37 PM

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Thread Starter, are yu interested in large project implementation? What I want to introduce is a technology successfully experimented in the 1940s.

Yu know our beloved "efficient" Light Rail Transit System (LRT), right? We can chalked up a proposal on implementing existing technologies in to play. What I'm trying to convince yu is LRT through Acoustic Levitation. Now, what it's all about?

We can utilise the use of high-powered sounds to suspend the LRT in the air and move them along as though on an invisible conveyor belt. We can even lift and move the LRT by Acoustic Levitation using Supersonic Waves. (This has been developed by Kaijo Corporation)

Have yu been in a silicon wafer manufacturing plant in Japan? Think of it as, the Acoustic Levitator can keep a small silicon wafer hovering one millimetres above the surface! (It's NOT MAGIC, for Christ sake!)
Furthermore, the direction and speed of the supersonic waves can also be controlled! (I'm looking at a very bright lightbulb prospect of business spanning from using this technology!) MUAHAHAHA~~~

We can use this methods of "no contact" transportation for the LRT in Malaysia! Anyway, electromagnetic sounds so ancient...but I believe Acoustic Levitation offers the greatest advantages comparing to Electromagnetic.

Regards, Joey~~~

p.s: Why not venture into some large commercial commodity project rather than venturing into a small battery charger business?

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Jun 16 2009, 04:43 PM
Thinkingfox
post Jun 16 2009, 04:38 PM

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QUOTE(karhoe @ Jun 16 2009, 03:20 PM)
Yeap, but if it's possible, that means we can put this devices along the highway, cars engine produce sound energy after all, and this energy can light up the street lamps.
*
Also the wind generate from the movement of cars. I read this as a proposal of future technology from Popular Science Magazine.
Joey Christensen
post Jun 16 2009, 04:40 PM

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QUOTE(Cheesenium @ Jun 16 2009, 04:35 PM)
Sound is everywhere,so,IMO,it's a better source of energy.

Still,how much energy you can generate?
*
Eh! "Cheesenium" a.k.a weird LRT engineer guy. How much energy can be extracted from sound energy? Pretty much. It can blow your pants off if yu really want... Hehehe~~~

Regards, Joey


Cheesenium
post Jun 16 2009, 04:51 PM

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QUOTE(Joey Christensen @ Jun 16 2009, 04:40 PM)
Eh! "Cheesenium" a.k.a weird LRT engineer guy. How much energy can be extracted from sound energy? Pretty much. It can blow your pants off if yu really want... Hehehe~~~

Regards, Joey
*
Im not dong anything to do with LRT.

Completely different field.
Thinkingfox
post Jun 16 2009, 04:55 PM

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QUOTE
Power Harvesting Research Could Bring about Next Generation of Electronics

COLLEGE STATION, Texas, Dec. 1, 2008 – Imagine a self-powering cell phone that never needs to be charged because it converts sound waves produced by the user into the energy it needs to keep running. It’s not as fa-fetched as it may seem thanks to the recent work of Tahir Cagin, a professor in the Artie McFerrin Department of Chemical Engineering at Texas A&M University.

Polarizable Charge Equilibration Interaction Potentials are essential in describing piezo- and ferro-electricity in ABO3 ceramics for sensors, actuators and energy harvesting applications.

Utilizing materials known in scientific circles as “piezoelectrics,” Cagin, whose research focuses on nanotechnology, has made a significant discovery in the area of power harvesting – a field that aims to develop self-powered devices that do not require replaceable power supplies, such as batteries.

Specifically, Cagin and his partners from the University of Houston have found that a certain type of piezoelectric material can covert energy at a 100 percent increase when manufactured at a very small size – in this case, around 21 nanometers in thickness.

What’s more, when materials are constructed bigger or smaller than this specific size they show a significant decrease in their energy-converting capacity, he said.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Source: http://www.che.tamu.edu/department/power-h...-of-electronics
This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Jun 16 2009, 04:55 PM
elhh82
post Jun 16 2009, 04:55 PM

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i think the energy generate would be negligible. It probably wouldn't be enough to power the speaker on the other side of the phone.
ganabathi
post Jun 16 2009, 05:08 PM

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simple experiment

1 Egg, & 2 Mobiles
65 minutes of connection between mobiles.
Initiated the call between the two mobiles and allowed 65 minutes approximately...(place the egg between the two mobile phone)

result:
During the first 15 minutes nothing happened;
25 minutes later the egg started getting hot;
45 minutes later the egg is hot;
65 minutes later the egg is cooked.

Conclusion: The immediate radiation of the mobiles has the potential to modify the proteins of the egg. Imagine what it can do with the proteins of your brains when you do long calls.

so the radiation of mobile phones is converted to heat energy,..

can this energy use to charge the mobile phones battery?

This post has been edited by ganabathi: Jun 16 2009, 05:10 PM
lin00b
post Jun 16 2009, 05:12 PM

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there is no such thing as sound energy. easily confirmed by looking at its unit (energy is measured in Joules)

though energy cannot be destroyed, most of it is converted into a form that is useless to us (read entrophy)

and if someone successfully come up with a way to convert any substantial amount of energy to another form at near 100% efficiency, i believe he would be in line to get a nobel prize.
Kampung2005
post Jun 16 2009, 05:29 PM

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Sound --> Motion ---> Electrical power

Theoretically possible, but the question that is at odds with this idea are :

- Efficiency....

What is the actual output when compared to the input?

Will it differ by a wide margin?


3dassets
post Jun 16 2009, 05:36 PM

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Seiko have kinetic powered watch, maybe when you combine with electricity generated by sound can charge the battery but not without battery. Again much of these topic is so far from application.
Joey Christensen
post Jun 16 2009, 05:37 PM

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QUOTE(Cheesenium @ Jun 16 2009, 04:51 PM)
Im not dong anything to do with LRT.

Completely different field.
*
Eh...Sorry! It was suppose to refer to Kampung2005. He has a nick on trains. That fella's an engineer. He's the weird LRT/Train guy...
Sorry for the mistake and inconvenience caused.

Regards, Joey~~~

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Jun 16 2009, 05:38 PM
Cheesenium
post Jun 16 2009, 05:52 PM

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QUOTE(Joey Christensen @ Jun 16 2009, 05:37 PM)
Eh...Sorry! It was suppose to refer to Kampung2005. He has a nick on trains. That fella's an engineer. He's the weird LRT/Train guy...
Sorry for the mistake and inconvenience caused.

Regards, Joey~~~
*
laugh.gif

No worries.

Im more into fluids,structures,technologies.
Thinkingfox
post Jun 16 2009, 06:00 PM

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QUOTE(Kampung2005 @ Jun 16 2009, 05:29 PM)
Sound --> Motion ---> Electrical power

Theoretically possible, but the question that is at odds with this idea are :

- Efficiency....

What is the actual output when compared to the input?

Will it differ by a wide margin?
*
QUOTE
a 2-kN force properly applied to a cubic-centimetersized quartz crystal produces over 12.5 kV.

Source: http://machinedesign.com/article/sensor-se...ce-sensors-0207
I don't know what is the proper way of calculating efficiency because the info of the distance moved when force is applied is not known. Could someone enlighten me on this?

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Jun 16 2009, 06:17 PM
SeaGates
post Jun 16 2009, 06:58 PM

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I don't think there's enough energy in ambient sound to charge up any electronic devices.

It can be designed to supplement the main power source but I think that's about it.

I don't know if there's truth in these 'internet fact' list that pops up once in a while but it's said that it takes a constant yelling of 8 years + to heat up a cup of coffee, hardly worth it don't you think laugh.gif

This post has been edited by SeaGates: Jun 16 2009, 06:58 PM
Thinkingfox
post Jun 16 2009, 07:16 PM

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Graph of V/F (voltage per unit force) against frequency from wikipedia for piezoelectric sensor/material

user posted image

Source: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...esponse.svg.png

It seems that at the optimal frequency, the voltage produced would be highest for a given force (sound waves)

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Jun 16 2009, 07:18 PM
IcyDarling
post Jun 16 2009, 07:17 PM

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anyhow, u wouldnt be able to use it for a long time, during duration of you talking, chemical energy not only converted to sound energy(for u to listen) but also heat and light energy. So, if you convert this sound energy(which i doubt), u probably receive, 60% of the energy back
Kampung2005
post Jun 17 2009, 09:13 AM

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A step forward

http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/143945

Nokia has came out with a prototype phone, that is able to harvest radio waves, and turn it into energy
yuktsi14
post Jun 18 2009, 03:17 PM

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why not
sound also is a form of energy
max_cjs0101
post Jun 18 2009, 10:39 PM

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I think it would be possible but using sound alone would not be sufficient enough.
chezzball
post Jun 20 2009, 12:48 AM

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not necessary sound... even movements, the sound waves or all those waves that is being transmitted in the air actually haz energy. you just need to find the right formula to convert it into the form of energy that u want. shake ur handphone also produces energy = tenaga kinetik =P

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post Jun 22 2009, 12:20 PM

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Its definitely possible, years ago no one ever thought of using solar energy to power a cellphone, today they've found a way to do so. So to answer your question really anything is possible, as long as you have enough funding (lol) to do the research. But just imagine though, if you can power things using voice, it would be kind of creepy, because someone would take those means to make some sort of bomb or some sort of illegal device to oppress others. What may be good for the people can always be turned into some sort of means/device for oppressing others... really blows when you think of both positive and negative effects.
Aurora
post Jun 24 2009, 10:38 PM

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ganabathi post is totally unrelated. laugh.gif

Sound energy haversting is possible, but is also inpractical. In cellphone, most of the energy is used to transmit the vocal information through radiowave, while only small amount is used to in microphone, speaker and LCD. This is why talktime is waaay shorter (due to high transmission energy), than standby and music playback time.

Assuming ideal condition with no energy loss, meaning the sound energy from speaker and human voice is 100% transfer into electric energy, it would probably prolong our talktime by a tiny bit, which is why I say inpractical.

Wave energy is measured in decibel (db). Human voice probably generate some miliwatt or microwatt of energy, hardly usable.

Piezoelectric is used as sensor, not energy harvesting. They are used in various application in favor of last generation sensor technology because of the size, and superior electric characteristic. Their output signal is normally very small, and often couple with an amplifier to magnify the value so that it is readable by other devices.

P.S.: Some technical information sharing:
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «



empire23
post Jun 24 2009, 11:13 PM

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There just isn't enough energy in sound i might say. Not pratical.
lin00b
post Jun 25 2009, 12:16 AM

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sound is not a type of energy. sound is a result of vibration of a medium.

how do you generate sound? you vibrate something, this vibration (kinetic energy) pass on to the nearest particle and to the next until it reaches another surface.

think pebble as source of sound, water as air, and side of pond as your eardrums and you have a good idea.

is it logical to transfer energy by sound? considering that
1, you need a line of sight,
2, sound wave tend to spread from its source,
3, most devices are electric based, and you'd have to convert the kinetic energy back to charge

you have an extremely inefficient way of transmission

This post has been edited by lin00b: Jun 25 2009, 12:19 AM
SUSsacai_nownet
post Jun 25 2009, 05:38 AM

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if u hv voice as loud as loud speaker .

very simple way to recharge elec always is through solenoid ...kinetic--> electric
hellriser
post Jul 21 2009, 11:32 PM

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because u guys talk about energy and its generation process, i have this thing in mind.

what if we put a magnet (+ all wiring and generator) around a fan to generate energy. will it be good? just like a dynamo. wont it be good as we switch on the fan, then it will generate electricity.

just my crazy thoughts.

oh old thread again. cant resist! tongue.gif
cdspins
post Jul 21 2009, 11:39 PM

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wah.. you guys need to go back to physic chapter 1. Equilibrium of energy, you can not generate more electricity from the input... a fan is used to move air.. not to get electricity.
rainpocky
post Jul 22 2009, 03:33 PM

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Actually its funny, this is the 3rd time this week I've heard of this, a dude i know at the local university is writing up a thesis on what he thinks using sound energy to power a battery. Its quite interesting hearing him talk about it.
dy/dx
post Aug 1 2009, 12:50 PM

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i don't think its possible cos the energy produce is just too little. Normal talking can only deliver about 10^−5 watts, assuming you can convert 100% of it. Very unlikely to be able to charge a battery.

user posted image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_power

weichi
post Aug 11 2009, 09:58 PM

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QUOTE(dy/dx @ Aug 1 2009, 12:50 PM)
i don't think its possible cos the energy produce is just too little. Normal talking can only deliver about 10^−5 watts, assuming you can convert 100% of it. Very unlikely to be able to charge a battery.

user posted image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_power

*
hi spammer, kinda quiet nowadays huh?
nimrod2
post Aug 21 2009, 03:33 PM

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QUOTE(weichi @ Aug 11 2009, 09:58 PM)
hi spammer, kinda quiet nowadays huh?
*
any relation to the topic? doh.gif

i think to harness the sound waves, we need a big transducer to absorb any meaningful energy.
even if we have 90% or more (thats actually a very good value) of energy being converted, we still cannot produce alot of energy.

why? because sound waves carry very little energy. so there is no practical usage of this idea.
i believe smile.gif


 

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