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Physics Plane on conveyor belt

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wKkaY
post Jun 16 2009, 01:51 PM

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Consider another body that requires airspeed to fly - a kite. If you were to run on a conveyor belt holding a kite, will the kite take off?
wKkaY
post Jun 17 2009, 04:47 AM

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QUOTE(Thinkingfox @ Jun 16 2009, 04:16 PM)
Kites are very light and I think the wind itself can make the kite 'take off' if you just raise it with your arms while tilting it. But for planes I don't think this would be possible.
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That's a difference in magnitude, not in principle. Look at this wind tunnel where model planes are tested (the planes are towed, like kites) -


QUOTE(SeaGates @ Jun 16 2009, 08:27 PM)
Kite would fly IF you yanked on the string, providing movement for the kite through the air. It's the same why kite fly when it's high up even if you're standing still because there's enough gale in the atmosphere to keep it flying.
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They would fly up momentarily if you tug on the string (as this creates airflow against the kite, and subsequently lift), but unless you continue running backwards it will fall back down as it loses airflow/lift.

Try flying a small and heavy kite on a windless day. It's frustrating and your legs will get a good workout smile.gif
wKkaY
post Jun 17 2009, 05:48 AM

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QUOTE(Aurora @ Jun 17 2009, 02:53 AM)
Now, we upgrade the experiment a bit. We put a conveyor at the bottom. By running the airplane on a conveyor, the engine actually create thrust onto the hull. Despite whatever the ground speed maybe, the thrust generate force onto the stationary air. If the ground travel at light speed yet the air above it remain stationary, the thrust will generate force onto the air, unlike car which generate thrust onto the ground. So, the airplane will just keep moving forward.
If it generates thrust towards the hull, doesn't that create drag and result in force going in the backwards direction, working against the airplane?

And besides, the point of the conveyor is to match the airplane's forward speed but in the opposite direction, so "keep moving forward" won't happen unless the wheels loose frictional contact with the belt.
wKkaY
post Jun 19 2009, 11:11 PM

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QUOTE(Aurora @ Jun 20 2009, 12:37 AM)
Yup, the hull is actually holding the engine from moving forward. However given enough thrust, it will overcome this resistance and start moving forward. If you take a close look at Boeing, you will notice a "lump" at the bottom of the hull, which connect to the wing.
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When it starts moving forward, the conveyer belt spins backwards faster (e.g. hook it up in a closed feedback loop), keeping the plane where it is.

How does the plane overcome this and move forward?
wKkaY
post Jun 20 2009, 04:21 AM

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Thanks bgeh, I'm an ass for not reading your first post here, because it started with ".. doesn't take off .." and was freakin long. I now understand the importance of Aurora's statement that a car generates thrust into the ground while a plane generates thrust into the air, because when put together with freely-moving wheels it leads to the result that the conveyor belt can never hold a plane back*.

* - taking this at face value, in all honesty i am probably never going to cross-check with the equations coz i'm not a physicist tongue.gif

 

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