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Physics Plane on conveyor belt

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goldfries
post Jun 16 2009, 07:13 PM

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QUOTE(SeaGates @ Jun 16 2009, 12:58 AM)
Yeap, I meant the latter, the conveyor belt moves away at the same speed at every condition. Meaning the plane is always stationary.
my thought is as what you mentioned.

if plane going at X speed and belt going at -X speed, then it should be stationary.

in the video, the plane was moving at quite a substantial speed.

when stationary, there's no way a lift can be achieved with little to no air-movement.

user posted image

goldfries
post Jun 17 2009, 02:02 AM

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QUOTE(bleu_huh @ Jun 16 2009, 08:02 PM)
im in 'yes' camp..

y i said so? it because the plane use engine thrust (air) to create a lift. it doesnt depends on the rotation of the wheel. this means the wheel just only a tool to supporting the plane to move..so when the conveyor belt moving in opposite direction of the plane at the same speed (theoretically) while the plane is in motion, the only thing different is just the wheel is rotate twice as much compared when the plane take off on normal ground.

or simply, the plane use thrust created by the engine to move forward, not by the rotation of the wheel.
*
eh, who's talking about the wheel la? biggrin.gif

btw the engine just moves the plane forward. it only creates the thrust, not the lift.

the lift happens when the air passes above and under the wing, creating the pressure that generates the lift.

the idea behind the conveyor belt going backwards is for it to counter the force generated by the propeller / engine.
goldfries
post Jun 20 2009, 06:13 AM

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QUOTE(bgeh @ Jun 20 2009, 05:46 AM)
It's an empirical equation, so yeah at best we take it as some approximation (which will probably fail at some limit). Actually if you used the same linear approximation, given powerful enough engines, you would reach the same conclusion that a plane on wheels with brakes applied will also fly off given the same condition of a conveyor belt.

Also, the above explaination only explains the first part of my post, where I claim that in the ideal case with friction and no rolling resistance, the plane simply doesn't move when the conveyor belt moves.


actually la. the videos posted so far, we can't conclude what exactly is the Mythbuster test about since we'll need more info from the starting. they always explain.

so if we go by the thought of the propeller's thrust finally overcoming the speed of the conveyor belt then I wouldn't disagree on anything. surely it'll reach a point where airflow creates sufficient lift to takeoff.

however in the case of what seagates mentioned............

QUOTE(SeaGates @ Jun 15 2009, 11:55 PM)
The question is that can a plane take off on a conveyor belt moving at the same speed in opposite direction?
then clearly it's no.

why? because it's no different from tying the plane to a solid object - it's not moving, thus won't takeoff.
goldfries
post Jun 20 2009, 06:27 AM

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yes, from my POV - the wheels don't matter.

i'm imagining that if the thrust generated results in a 75km/h forward motion, the wheel will spin the other direction with the conveyor belt at 75km/h.

in the end it's like running on a treadmill. power is used to go forward but the object remains stationary due to the area that the object is moving on, is moving backwards. and just like running on a treadmill, you can run at 12km/h and still don't feel any air going around your body.

so if we were to go with Seagate's 1st post - clearly there's only 1 answer.
goldfries
post Jun 20 2009, 08:09 AM

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QUOTE(bgeh @ Jun 20 2009, 06:35 AM)
No, because the treadmill analogy fails to compensate for the fact that we're no longer talking about cuboid like objects, which experience massive friction that literally causes us to stop, but wheels instead, where the friction instead speeds up the wheel's velocity. Try this question then. Take a roller skater moving at say 5km/h. Let him skate to a walkalator moving in the opposite direction, at also 5km/h. Guess what will happen when he reaches the walkalator? [You could also substitute the walkalator with a treadmill, as long it's perfectly horizontal and stuff]

Solution in the form of an edit, after you reply (will take a while though)

Edit: 2nd analogy I just thought of: (True story)

When I was a kid, I always wanted to do roller skating/roller blading, and spent quite some time admiring and looking at my neighbour and cousin's skates. Naturally with my itchy hands I liked to roll the wheels using my hands by running my palm across the wheels. I hope you've done this too, but I noticed that the faster you move your hand across the wheels, the faster they rotate. Why? Same principle applies to the walkalator question, and same principle applies to the 'free spinning wheels' on the plane
after putting some thought of what you mentioned, i think i finally understood your point.

so assuming i get your point right, we're talking about..........

conveyor belt moving backwards at X speed. Free wheel also will spin at that speed to counter belt's backward movement. that effectively nullifies the speed, while the propeller is still giving the thrust. smile.gif if that's the case, then it's clear that in the end as long as the thrust provides forward movement, the plane will take off when the air pressure generates sufficient lift.

short version - the free wheel spins to the speed of the conveyor belt, reducing the total effect of the conveyor belt on the plane's forward motion.
goldfries
post Jun 20 2009, 02:42 PM

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QUOTE(fantagero @ Jun 20 2009, 08:13 AM)
do plane really need a wheel to move forward??
i mean, let say the body of the plane is on ice, the thrust from engine is enough to make the plane go forward.
i don't think you get what i was saying. biggrin.gif btw never once did i mention using wheel to move forward.

try to understand what me and bgeh talked about in this page, we've come to an agreed understanding already. smile.gif

i'll try to make it even more simple

the counter movement of the conveyer belt at the same speed of the thrust has no effect on the plane as the contact point between the plane and the belt is the wheel, where the wheel will spin according to the speed of the belt thus having little to no effect on the thrust.
goldfries
post Jun 29 2009, 09:16 AM

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aihh can reach page 5 when it's very simple actually - if pressure not created on the wings, no take off. simple as that.

 

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