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Physics Plane on conveyor belt

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post Aug 5 2009, 10:55 PM

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QUOTE(DeniseLau @ Jul 27 2009, 04:52 PM)
Hmm... read a couple of explanations here, doesn't explain the fundamentals.

I’ll try to explain here why an aeroplane can take off from a coveyor belt and do a comparison with cars on a coveyor belt. Here are the steps we'll take towards understanding the concept:

Step 1 = How a car moves forward ("gains forward momentum" in TS's words) on a normal road
Step 2 = How an aeroplane moves forward ("gains forward momentum" in TS's words) on a normal runway
Step 3 = How a car reacts on a conveyor belt
Step 4 = How an aeroplane reacts on a conveyor belt

But before we get into all that, let me first describe how a car works and how an aeroplane works in a normal scenario... meaning like normal lah, without coveyor belt and all that.

The Car
First let’s take a look at the car. A car is able to move forward because it has an engine which is connected to a gear box which in turn is connected to the wheels. When you pay money to Petronas, they’ll give you petrol which when poured into your engine will cause the engine to rotate and spin the gears in the gearbox which will then cause your wheels to spin.

user posted image

The rotation from the wheels then cause the tires to push backwards against the road surface and move the car forwards, thus making you spend more money and making Petronas richer. But also making your car go forwards at the same time.

So at this point, I'd like to introduce a new term just to make the explanations easier. The term is "Medium-of-motion". For a car, the petrol gives power to the engine which gives power to the gearbox which then gives power to the wheels and then finally the wheels push against the "medium-of-motion" which is the road surface.

One important thing to note here in this scenario, is that the "medium-of-motion" (ie. the road surface) is not moving and is fixed.

user posted image

The Aeroplane
Okay now let's look at how the aeroplane moves forward. Forget about the whole thing about "aerofoil" and "lift" and all that stuff, we don't really care about that, let's just look at how an aeroplane moves forward on the ground at an airport runway.

Click to see how aeroplane moves on ground:
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Lol... but seriously though, an aeroplane moves forward both on ground and on air by using massive engines that suck in air from the front and blows it out the back. If you're wondering how something can move forwards by blowing air out the back, try inflating a balloon and then letting it go with the end untied. It flies forwards doesn't it? Same thing with the aeroplane, just that instead of keeping a tank full of air to blow backwards, it simply sucks in the air from the front and blows it out backwards.

user posted image

At this point, let's stop for a while and look at the "medium-of-motion" for aeroplanes. Again, Petronas's petrol gives power to the engines which give power to the propeller which then sucks in the air from the front and blows it out the back really fast causing the high speed air to push against the stationary air behind the propeller causing the plane to move forward. So the "medium-of-motion" here in this case is the air.

So now we begin to see that the wheels of the airplane serves no purpose at all, except to hold the aeroplane up. That's why aeroplanes can also use skis or floaters instead of wheels.

user posted image
Introducing the conveyor belt!
Okay, now that we understand the fundamental difference between how a car moves forward and an air-plane moves forward, let's bring in the problem... the conveyor belt!

Before looking further into this problem, let's make a few assumptions:
1. The conveyor belt is very long, longer than the distance required for an air-plane to take off.
2. The conveyor belt is going 'backward' (i.e. opposing the direction we want to go).
3. The conveyor belt, aeroplane and car speeds can be controlled *very* accurately.
4. The car and the aeroplane has a GPS receiver that reads out the coordinates of it's current location.
5. The aeroplane has an additional speedometer that is connected to the aeroplane's wheels

So now, we put the car on the conveyor belt. Let's see what happens.

So we put the car on the belt, turn on the conveyor belt at 35KM/h. At the same time, we on the engine and start driving forwards at car-speedometer's 35KM/h in the opposite direction. Guess what? The car doesn't move forward or backward! It stays in the same spot although the wheels are spinning furiously. The GPS reading too doesn't change and it shows the same coordinates and a speed of 0KM/h!

But why?

Well, when you burn your petrol to make the wheels spin, normally the wheels will push against the road surface to go forwards. But this time, since the conveyor belt too is going backwards, the pushing action of the wheels is negated. It's like driving on a normal road, but instead of you going forwards, the whole world is going backwards!

user posted image

Because of this, all the force that the wheels is trying to apply to the ground to make the car go forwards is instead being used to stop the car from going backwards. In other words the forward momentum that the car is generating is being cancelled by the backward momentum of the conveyor belt. What does this mean? Well let's jam on the breaks!!

Suddenly when you jam on the breaks, you realise that you're hurtling backwards at 35KM/h. Your GPS reader shows your previously stationary coordinates now moving backwards and your speed as 35KM/h!! So you press the fuel again all the way until your speedometer shows 35KM/h. Look now at your GPS reader and you see that your coordinates are stationary again and you're going at 0KM/h.

Therefore, when your car says you're moving at 35KM/h, this is the speed of your car relative to the "medium-of-motion (ie. conveyor belt), it's not the true speed of the car. The true speed - relative to the Earth - of the car is given by the GPS receiver, which is 0KM/h.

This happens to the car, because the "medium-of-motion" for the car is the road surface and this scenario, the conveyor belt simulates the road surface moving in the opposite direction.

Now let's do it again, this time with an air-plane! Since air-planes move faster, we're going to set the conveyor to 100km/h! Also remember that we have connected an extra speedometer to the aeroplane's wheels, we'll be monitoring this as we do the experiment.

Okay, first lets turn on the conveyor belt at 100KM/h. Immediately we see that the aeroplane is hurtling back at 100KM/h. Let's check the meters:

GPS: 100KM/h -- going backwards
Aeroplane's speed indicator: 0KM/h
Speedometer connected to the wheels: 0KM/h

Okay now we turn on the engines, and start pressing the fuel just a little. Look at the meters!

GPS: 1KM/h -- going forwards
Aeroplane's speed indicator: 1KM/h
Speedometer connected to the wheels: 101KM/h

Notice how fast the speedometer readings jumped? Why?

To understand why we notice such a huge difference in the speedometer reading, we need to look again at the "medium-of-motion" idea. Remember that the speedometer is connected to the tires of the aeroplane, so it measures the velocity of the aeroplane relative to the conveyor  belt.

When the propellers of the aeroplane starts spinning, they begin to suck the air from the front and blow it backwards, this creates a forward momentum for the air-plane.

Now this is where the magic happens:

Because the "medium-of-motion" that the aeroplane uses is air and not the road surface, the conveyor belt cannot cancel off the forward momentum of the aeroplane! So almost immediately when you press the fuel, the air-plane will start moving forwards relative to the Earth! That's why your GPS will start showing you that you're moving forwards at a certain velocity.

Now let's go full throttle!!

GPS: 100KM/h
Aeroplane's speed indicator: 100KM/h
Speedometer connected to the wheels: 200KM/h

So now we see that as we really start burning the petrol and making Petronas richer, we continue moving forwards relative to the Earth really fast!

And since we are now moving forwards relative to the Earth really fast, it's exactly like taking off from a normal runway!

But wait! Let's try something extra here. Let's maintain the aeroplane throttle but now pump up the conveyor belt speed to 300KM/h!!! Look at the meters!!  shocking.gif

GPS: 100KM/h
Aeroplane's speed indicator: 100KM/h
Speedometer connected to the wheels: 400KM/h

Now the speed of the aeroplane - relative to the conveyor belt - increases to 400KM/h but the aeroplane's true speed relative to the Earth is unaffected!

This is because the conveyor belt - which simulates the road as "medium-of-motion" - does not affect the aeroplane which uses the air as "medium-of-motion".

Conclusions
1. Yes, an aeroplane can gain forward momentum while on a conveyor belt regardless of the speed of the conveyor belt.
2. Yes, an aeroplane can take off from a conveyor belt, because of #1.
3. No, taking off on a conveyor belt will not result in the aeroplane needing a shorter runway, it will still need the same length of runway to take off.
4. It's almost impossible to make an aeroplane stay stationary with it's engines on on a conveyor belt, unless you put the whole experiment inside a wind-tunnel. A wind-tunnel is to an air-plane what a conveyor belt is to a car.

Alternative way to look at it
Another way to look at this is through seeing humans running on a treadmill.

In the first scenario depicted below, the man has to run faster than the treadmill if he wants to reach the wall. His legs are representative of the engines, gearbox and wheels of the car.

user posted image

In the second scenario depicted below, the man needs just to pull himself with the string to reach the wall. The string is representative of the air as the medium-of-motion while the hands are representative of the engines of an air-plane and it's propellers.

user posted image

Hope this helps you understand the concepts.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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Wow! You explain things like a professional! Do you study or even work in this field? You deserve a great applause! rclxms.gif rclxms.gif rclxms.gif
I personally think that flying a plane with a conveyor belt instead of runways is not possible yet. But no one dare to guarantee what may happen in the future. Since you know, the pace of science and technology is increasing at an exponential rate.
cherroy
post Aug 6 2009, 12:00 AM

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Don't focus on wheel part or thrust from engine. Whether the plane can fly or not, all depended on the wing speed on its both wings only.

Thrust of engine main objective is to let the plane having enough wing speed which created the differentiate pressure between upper and lower part of the wing eventually lifting force.


bgeh
post Aug 6 2009, 12:26 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Aug 6 2009, 12:00 AM)
Don't focus on wheel part or thrust from engine. Whether the plane can fly or not, all depended on the wing speed on its both wings only.

Thrust of engine main objective is to let the plane having enough wing speed which created the differentiate pressure between upper and lower part of the wing eventually lifting force.
*
It does matter in this because in this case it is an additional constraint that may affect the airspeed over the wings.
vivienne85
post Aug 6 2009, 01:28 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Aug 6 2009, 12:00 AM)
Don't focus on wheel part or thrust from engine. Whether the plane can fly or not, all depended on the wing speed on its both wings only.

Thrust of engine main objective is to let the plane having enough wing speed which created the differentiate pressure between upper and lower part of the wing eventually lifting force.
*
true...but we do need thrust to propel the plane to go into airspace

This post has been edited by vivienne85: Aug 6 2009, 01:39 PM
cherroy
post Aug 6 2009, 04:37 PM

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QUOTE(bgeh @ Aug 6 2009, 12:26 PM)
It does matter in this because in this case it is an additional constraint that may affect the airspeed over the wings.
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Whether the plane can fly or not, the airspeed between the wing dictate all.

If the conveyor belt is moving backwards, resulted net zero movement of the plane, i.e. no airspeed between the wing on the plane the the airplane won't fly, as simply as that.

The forwards movement of the plane by engine thrust is to create enough airspeed between the wing. Engine thrust is not the direct reason plane is flying. That's why F1 car doesn't fly even though they are running at 300km/h as almost similar to take-off speed of airplanes because they don't have wing. tongue.gif


Engine thrust -> plane move doesn't move forwards due to reverse underneath conveyou belt -> no enought airspeed, plane won't fly

Engine thrust -> plane move forwards -> enough airspeed between wing -> plane can fly

No engine thrust -> plane doesn't move forwards -> no airspeed between wing -> no fly

No engine thrust -> plane doesn't move forward -> but if there is natural airspeed blowing in front on the plane (air speed more than 300km/h which doesn't happen naturally -> plane can fly. Just like you see some bird just spread their wing, then can fly/float in the air already, which need to flapping.

So all are about the airspeed blowing/flowing on the wing.

This post has been edited by cherroy: Aug 6 2009, 04:40 PM
bgeh
post Aug 6 2009, 05:50 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Aug 6 2009, 04:37 PM)
Whether the plane can fly or not, the airspeed between the wing dictate all.

If the conveyor belt is moving backwards, resulted net zero movement of the plane, i.e. no airspeed between the wing on the plane the the airplane won't fly, as simply as that.

The forwards movement of the plane by engine thrust is to create enough airspeed between the wing. Engine thrust is not the direct reason plane is flying. That's why F1 car doesn't fly even though they are running at 300km/h as almost similar to take-off speed of airplanes because they don't have wing.  tongue.gif
Engine thrust -> plane move doesn't move forwards due to reverse underneath conveyou belt -> no enought airspeed, plane won't fly

Engine thrust -> plane move forwards -> enough airspeed between wing -> plane can fly

No engine thrust -> plane doesn't move forwards -> no airspeed between wing -> no fly

No engine thrust -> plane doesn't move forward -> but if there is natural airspeed blowing in front on the plane (air speed more than 300km/h which doesn't happen naturally -> plane can fly. Just like you see some bird just spread their wing, then can fly/float in the air already, which need to flapping.

So all are about the airspeed blowing/flowing on the wing.
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Actually you're agreeing with me, except that you're missing out on a minor point

But if the conveyor belt moves backwards and still the plane moves, will the plane fly, or no? And that's why many of us have been stressing on the fact that it's the wheels also matter.

We are all agreed that the critical condition is that the wing achieves sufficient airspeed, but whether it achieves sufficient airspeed depends on the wheels, thrust, and the curveball in this question, the conveyor belt, which is why they all also count.

This post has been edited by bgeh: Aug 6 2009, 05:59 PM
SUStsunade
post Aug 6 2009, 06:20 PM

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QUOTE
The question is that can a plane take off on a conveyor belt moving at the same speed in opposite direction?



Yes or no, depends on how one interprets the above question.
The correct answer is YES, of course.
Look at the sentence closely. The plane moves. And it is moving at the same speed but opposite direction of the conveyor belt. Get it? What moves the plane? not the wheels of course. The wheels are free spinning. So, no matter how fast the conveyer belt is moving, the plane will still be moving till it reaches take off speed and take off. biggrin.gif

It's that simple. Just a play of english words wink.gif

This post has been edited by tsunade: Aug 6 2009, 06:21 PM
cherroy
post Aug 7 2009, 01:11 AM

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QUOTE(bgeh @ Aug 6 2009, 05:50 PM)
Actually you're agreeing with me, except that you're missing out on a minor point

But if the conveyor belt moves backwards and still the plane moves, will the plane fly, or no? And that's why many of us have been stressing on the fact that it's the wheels also matter.

We are all agreed that the critical condition is that the wing achieves sufficient airspeed, but whether it achieves sufficient airspeed depends on the wheels, thrust, and the curveball in this question, the conveyor belt, which is why they all also count.
*
What I mean airspeed, is not the speed of the plane moving forwards, what I meant or want to point outed previously is the air flowing speed between the wing.

Again, just measure the airflow between wing, if the airflow speed is enough that produce the lifting force, then it can fly, as simple as that. Don't need to care much about wheel spinning or converyor belt.

If the plane speed/velocity/accelaration is as same as conveyor belt moving backwards, which resulted zero movement or not enough airspeed between the wing i.e. no enough lifting force, the plane won't fly.

If the conveyor belt moving backwards not fast enough than the plane moving forwards, i.e plane is still moving forwards despite backwards moving conveyor, when it reach enough lifting force produce by air flow then it can fly. But in this case it mean more thrust needed i.e. engine is working 2x harder ro propel the plane forwards.

Concentrate on lifting force that enable plane to fly by then you have cleared mind. Lifting force come from differentiate pressure between upper and lower part of the wing which created from air flowing.

The plane still can fly if the plane has net forwards moving motion which enable it to produce the lifting force let say in ordinary situation300km/h airspeed needed, while in a backward moving conveyor belt let say at 100km/h, it means that plane need to move 400km/h to have a net moving motion of 300km/h to enable it to fly, you still see a moving plane at 300km/h net forward in a backward moving conveyor in this case.



This post has been edited by cherroy: Aug 7 2009, 01:15 AM
bgeh
post Aug 7 2009, 02:10 AM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Aug 7 2009, 01:11 AM)
What I mean airspeed, is not the speed of the plane moving forwards, what I meant or want to point outed previously is the air flowing speed between the wing.

Again, just measure the airflow between wing, if the airflow speed is enough that produce the lifting force, then it can fly, as simple as that. Don't need to care much about wheel spinning or converyor belt.

If the plane speed/velocity/accelaration is as same as conveyor belt moving backwards, which resulted zero movement or not enough airspeed between the wing i.e. no enough lifting force, the plane won't fly.

If the conveyor belt moving backwards not fast enough than the plane moving forwards, i.e plane is still moving forwards despite backwards moving conveyor, when it reach enough lifting force produce by air flow then it can fly. But in this case it mean more thrust needed i.e. engine is working 2x harder ro propel the plane forwards.

Concentrate on lifting force that enable plane to fly by then you have cleared mind. Lifting force come from differentiate pressure between upper and lower part of the wing which created from air flowing.

The plane still can fly if the plane has net forwards moving motion which enable it to produce the lifting force let say in ordinary situation300km/h airspeed needed, while in a backward moving conveyor belt let say at 100km/h, it means that plane need to move 400km/h to have a net moving motion of 300km/h to enable it to fly, you still see a moving plane at 300km/h net forward in a backward moving conveyor in this case.
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Yes, except that how would you know if there is sufficient lifting force for a plane on a conveyor belt, with the air being still relative to say a tree on the ground, and the conveyor belt moving backwards [relative to the ground] and the plane moving forwards [relative to the conveyor belt - we do not know whether it moves forward/backward/being stationary wrt that tree on the ground, which is the problem which is being asked in the first post]

It isn't cleared up at all if you concentrate on lifting force alone, because without considering the wheels and the conveyor belt you would not be able to conclude whether the wings do move relative to that tree on the ground (and hence the air around the wings itself)

The only way your solution would work is if an experiment is done, which I don't think any of us can.

[Note: before we all get confused again, here's my issue with cherroy's initial statement:
QUOTE
Don't focus on wheel part or thrust from engine.

I'm simply saying that it is very important in this case, because it ultimately decides what the airspeed over the wings are, and thus whether the critical condition for lift (which is what cherroy has been stressing on) is achiveable]

This post has been edited by bgeh: Aug 7 2009, 02:22 AM
cherroy
post Aug 7 2009, 03:10 PM

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QUOTE(SeaGates @ Jun 15 2009, 11:55 PM)
This is highly controversial debate that's still raging I think. And I've edited some details to make it clear of the scenario. It is reflected in bold text

The question is that can a plane take off on a conveyor belt moving at the same speed in opposite direction?

In simple form - [cool.gifCan a plane take off while being stationary? Having it's forward rolling momentum elliminated?[/b]

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The origin TS question.

Answer is no.

If the plane doesn't have a net forwards (or relative to a tree on ground) to generate airflow speed between the wing, it cannot fly.


Added on August 7, 2009, 3:12 pm
QUOTE(bgeh @ Aug 7 2009, 02:10 AM)
Yes, except that how would you know if there is sufficient lifting force for a plane on a conveyor belt, with the air being still relative to say a tree on the ground, and the conveyor belt moving backwards [relative to the ground] and the plane moving forwards [relative to the conveyor belt - we do not know whether it moves forward/backward/being stationary wrt that tree on the ground, which is the problem which is being asked in the first post]

It isn't cleared up at all if you concentrate on lifting force alone, because without considering the wheels and the conveyor belt you would not be able to conclude whether the wings do move relative to that tree on the ground (and hence the air around the wings itself)

The only way your solution would work is if an experiment is done, which I don't think any of us can.

[Note: before we all get confused again, here's my issue with cherroy's initial statement:

I'm simply saying that it is very important in this case, because it ultimately decides what the airspeed over the wings are, and thus whether the critical condition for lift (which is what cherroy has been stressing on) is achiveable]
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Sufficient air lifting force is generate through the airflow speed between the wing whether the conveyor belt moves forwards or backward or how fast the wheel is spinning is not the the factor dictate the plane can fly or not.

If there is zero movement (or relative to the tree on a ground), the plane has no airflow speed between the wing.


Added on August 7, 2009, 3:32 pmFor ordinary plane, once the plane reach the threshold pre-defined speed, the the pilot will pull the control panel so that the wind/air flow direction being changed so that it generate the lifting force.

If the wing flap doesn't extend out and change the angle of the airflow, the plane still continue run forwards on the ground, then it become like F1 car.

This post has been edited by cherroy: Aug 7 2009, 03:32 PM
bgeh
post Aug 7 2009, 05:18 PM

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Which is why in an earlier post, I've stated that the initial question itself is flawed - it's just that Seagates never changed it

Also, we're only playing hypothetical positions here, so we just assume that the plane will fly once it reaches some critical velocity required for flight.
Vengeance_Mad
post Aug 7 2009, 08:58 PM

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QUOTE(bgeh @ Aug 7 2009, 05:18 PM)
Which is why in an earlier post, I've stated that the initial question itself is flawed - it's just that Seagates never changed it

Also, we're only playing hypothetical positions here, so we just assume that the plane will fly once it reaches some critical velocity required for flight.
*
In that case, there's no point arguing/debating since we DON'T really know the exact answer.
That is because the question itself is flawed.


mumeichan
post Aug 7 2009, 10:00 PM

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Oh what a lively discussion here. So I also want to butt in.

Well the plane certainly not going to take off if it's stationary relative to the air around it's wings.

I think a lot of people don't understand how a jet engine works. The enjin just pushes the plane foward. It doesn't pull air over the wings so the air over the wings is faster than the air below it. Thus the engine aren't directly reponsible for the lift. It just moves the plane fowards.

Now such a conveyor belt that can keep a plane stationary probably is impossible to be built. Even if the belt can match the speed of the plane perfectly, since there's friction between the plane wheels and the plane, the plane will just be dragged foward on the conveyor belt once the wheels jam up. What happens after that well, it doesn't matter cause the plane moved.
bgeh
post Aug 7 2009, 10:25 PM

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QUOTE(Vengeance_Mad @ Aug 7 2009, 08:58 PM)
In that case, there's no point arguing/debating since we DON'T really know the exact answer.
That is because the question itself is flawed.
*
It is still possible to fix the question to make it one that is answerable, and also conforms to our intuition.

The question in the original post has a problem because Seagates had already put in an assumption into the formulation of the problem [namely that the conveyor belt negates the motion of the plane itself], solving the question immediately, and giving the answer that the plane doesn't fly. That assumption can be shown to be false [linear region anyway]

Removing that assumption, and going on with reasoning about the wheels and stuff should lead you to conclude that the plane will take off in ideal conditions [non-ideal ones should only require a slightly more powerful engine it seems]

This post has been edited by bgeh: Aug 7 2009, 10:31 PM
Benjamin911
post Aug 7 2009, 11:13 PM

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Here is my take:

Just imagine you are trying to cycle a normal bicycle (fitted with real aeronautical wings and tail) across the length of the runway. Suddenly, the runway starts moving against your direction under your wheels faster and faster until your bicycle is no longer achieving any physical distance no matter how much harder and faster you are paddling. The wheels of your bicycle is now spinning very fast as you paddle harder and harder, but you are not moving forward at all.

What can you do now to make your bicycle move forward??? shocking.gif blink.gif ohmy.gif unsure.gif

Well, the solution is as simple as that;

Just turn on your twin turbo-prob engines fitted under both wings and watch the propellers spin faster and faster. Very soon, (provided you continue paddling at the same rate), your bicycle would start moving forward as usual (regardless of the conveyor-belt runway moving rapidly against your direction under your wheels).

Increase the speed of the twin turbo-probes engines (to take off) and your bicycle would accelerate forward as usual and gradually get faster and faster until you take off successfully.

The only difference here is that the wheels of your bicycle were spinning much faster than usual during the process of taking off; as the twin turbo-probe engines propelled you forward regardless of the conveyor belt moving rapidly against your direction under your wheels. thumbup.gif

But what about a plane coming in to land on a conveyor-belt that is moving rapidly against the direction of the incoming plane??? biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Benjamin911: Aug 7 2009, 11:25 PM
adzley
post Aug 11 2009, 06:32 PM

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L = 1/2*ρ*v*v*A*CL

L is lift force,
ρ is air density
v is true airspeed,
A is planform area, and
CL is the lift coefficient at the desired angle of attack, Mach number, and Reynolds number

Conveyor speed = Plane speed

Vc = Vp

v = true airspeed = Vc-Vp = 0

L = 1/2*ρ*0*0*A*CL = 0 = No lift = No take off. icon_rolleyes.gif


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