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Physics <<<<<Time Travel>>>>>, The Past, Present, and Future

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Thinkingfox
post Jun 14 2009, 02:58 PM

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How it is possible to go back to the past? Even if you can go faster than the speed of light, you would probably be able to delay time.
Thinkingfox
post Jun 14 2009, 03:46 PM

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QUOTE(bubbliblu @ Jun 14 2009, 03:30 PM)
Why not? I am pretty sure we or something from us could go back to the past. I am not sure about the future though...
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In my opinion, it's the other way around. I think one can travel to the future, but not the past. Here's my justification:

Using the twin paradox, I present an example from wikipedia:
QUOTE
Consider a space ship traveling from Earth to the nearest star system outside of our solar system: a distance d = 4.45 light years away, at a speed v = 0.866c (i.e., 86.6 percent of the speed of light). The Earth-based mission control reasons about the journey this way (for convenience in this thought experiment the ship is assumed to immediately attain its full speed upon departure): the round trip will take t = 2d / v = 10.28 years in Earth time (i.e. everybody on earth will be 10.28 years older when the ship returns). The amount of time as measured on the ship's clocks and the aging of the travelers during their trip will be reduced by the factor \epsilon = \sqrt{1 - v^2/c^2}, the reciprocal of the Lorentz factor. In this case \epsilon = 0.500 \, and the travelers will have aged only 0.500×10.28 = 5.14 years when they return.

The ship's crew members also calculate the particulars of their trip from their perspective. They know that the distant star system and the Earth are moving relative to the ship at speed v during the trip. In their rest frame the distance between the Earth and the star system is εd = 0.5d = 2.23 light years (length contraction), for both the outward and return journeys. Each half of the journey takes 2.23 / v = 2.57 years, and the round trip takes 2×2.57 = 5.14 years. Their calculations show that they will arrive home having aged 5.14 years. The travelers' final calculation is in complete agreement with the calculations of those on Earth, though they experience the trip quite differently.

If a pair of twins are born on the day the ship leaves, and one goes on the journey while the other stays on Earth, they will meet again when the traveler is 5.14 years old and the stay-at-home twin is 10.28 years old. The calculation illustrates the usage of the phenomenon of length contraction and the experimentally verified phenomenon of time dilation to describe and calculate consequences and predictions of Einstein's special theory of relativity.

Source
In this case, in my opinion, you can say that the twin which travelled to space has gone into the future. But you cannot say that the twin on earth has gone to the past just by seeing his younger twin. This is because everything else has changed normally except the space ship crew. And this is why I don't see how one can go to the past.

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Jun 14 2009, 04:30 PM
Thinkingfox
post Jun 14 2009, 03:58 PM

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QUOTE(tgrrr @ Jun 14 2009, 03:50 PM)
Interesting topic.

1. If time travel is possible, why hasn't any future human come by and visit us? Given the infinite amount of time available in "future", surely humans would have invented a time travel machine if it is at all a possible feat.

2. The paradox of what would happen if you travel to your past and changed something to yourself. What would happen to your current self then? I do not agree the concept of journeying to a parallel universe counts as time traveling.
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I think they have. Think of events in history, like the accuracy of the alignment of the pyramids and why astronomers today still use Inca ruins to correct their computer calculation programmes. Probably this explains why there are sightings of UFO sometimes. They could be future humans instead of aliens. I think once time travelling is discovered, those in authority create some laws to govern time-travelling, to ensure that we do not go back and screw the past, which might lead to the extinction of humans.

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Jun 14 2009, 03:59 PM
Thinkingfox
post Jun 14 2009, 04:28 PM

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QUOTE(tgrrr @ Jun 14 2009, 04:05 PM)
Your kidding right? I mean none of those explanations constitute hard evidence for the existence of time travelling.
And I usually believe in simpler explanations rather than thinking of the many fantastic possibilities.

Your arguments about time dilation merits some thoughts though.
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It is not an evidence, but it could be a possible explanation as to why we do not have (or rather do not know of) visitors from the future.


Added on June 14, 2009, 4:32 pm
QUOTE(ModularHelmet @ Jun 14 2009, 04:06 PM)
time dilation has nothing to do with time travelling at all.

The twin paradox which is based on time dilation is just an effect observed from special relativity.

Those who studied special relativity should be able to understand twin paradox easily.

For those who don't, it's good for you to learn some.

Actually, anyone who travel on bike or car or plane would live a longer life compare to your friend standing on earth (the initial frame). However, the effect is too little (perhaps the range of less than few nano seconds) thus having no impact at all.

However, a number like 0.8c will have such effect by then.

Those who are interested you can study length contraction as well.

To TS, what you mention is wormhole, another theoretical proposal which still haven't been proven until today. However, i do believe wormhole exists as in GR but doesn't promote time travelling. GR is not really my field so my statement is not really correct. It is just a believe rather than a physics research.
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But then again, if it is not the conventional time-travelling that we are talking about, could it be seen as another form of time-travelling?

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Jun 14 2009, 04:36 PM
Thinkingfox
post Jun 15 2009, 06:01 PM

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I wonder if everything in the universe is predestined. This would lead to two possibilities (that I can think of): either time-travelling is impossible or you can only be an observer. The latter means that when you travel back, you cannot change anything at all. ie. nobody would be able to see you, hear you, feel you etc.

Or maybe it is not predestined, which means time travelling would cause history to change. I cannot think of what would happen if you change the future. ie. Would the present alter itself to fit the future?

Or maybe only some points in history cannot be changed (partially predestined). Other events can be altered to give a slightly different history. eg. If you go back and kill Hitler, someone else would replace him as Fuhrer and start World War 2. Which means Hitler would be a nobody in history, but World War 2 would still happen.
Thinkingfox
post Jun 15 2009, 06:52 PM

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QUOTE(ThanatosSwiftfire @ Jun 15 2009, 06:46 PM)
I can't help recall a quote by someone,

'I notice that even people who claim everything is predestined, look before they cross the road'

Time travel would be an interesting issue if it was actually possible, (regardless of whether it is)

Just to play devil's advocate, I believe to us, from our 3-dimensional view of things, it must honestly seem impossible. If we had somehow be able to transcend and be a 4-dimensional being, time travel would actually be as simple as moving from point a to point b.
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I think being 3 or 4 dimensional is our human perspective (limited by our understanding). Just like if we insist that the world is 2-dimensional, some things that we do now would be impossible.


Added on June 15, 2009, 6:53 pm
QUOTE(IcyDarling @ Jun 15 2009, 06:50 PM)
Anyone believe that if we could travel at the speed of light, we could accomplish time travelling? Imagine you travel at speed of light, ok lets not go that far, imagine we travel at the speed of an aeroplane, a speed of 245 m/s, slow if compared to the speed of light( i think...) we already burned and vanish to air, due to.... air friction?  tongue.gif  and now u want to travel at the speed of light...  tongue.gif

I once imagined, blackhole and wormhole( i wonder if they are same ). If u are sucked into a blackhole, u probably be sucked to another dimension or possibly another time.. xD


Added on June 15, 2009, 6:51 pmbtw, albert einstein promoted that quote where time travel is possible if u are able to travel at the speed of light.
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Air-friction in the outer space is zero

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Jun 15 2009, 06:53 PM
Thinkingfox
post Jun 16 2009, 03:14 PM

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QUOTE(SeaGates @ Jun 15 2009, 10:36 PM)
Observing time traveler? Whee! We blew billions to create the universe's biggest history book laugh.gif

If the universe is predestined, you won't be traveling back in time, even as an observer. What you observe in the past may alter your present perception that will alter your future action. So if it's predestined, you shouldn't be changing your mind after reading what's in the past because that will alter the future.

In a predestined universe, Hitler will never get killed but WWII would still happen. It's contradicting because, if WWII were to still happen because it's being 'predestined'. Hitler would be predestined not to die as well laugh.gif
Actually no, space is full of space dust. At the speed of light, hitting a single sub atom is like the entire Jupiter slamming your body.

Outer space isn't actually void of nothing. If you travel beyond the border of universe, the empty 'space' is actually something. So it's sort of a perspective issue laugh.gif
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If the universe if predestined, maybe even the time-travelling that you do is already predestined. On Hitler getting killed, that's my opinion (or rather speculation) on semi-predestination. What I have in mind about semi-predestination would be that some events are predestined and some are not.

No, I think you misunderstood me. I said there no air friction in space. smile.gif
QUOTE
Newton would have loved space. There is no air resistance. There is only gravity. Once a spacecraft is accelerated to a given speed, the engine is turned off and the craft coasts forever with its trajectory affected only by the force of gravity.

Source: http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sp_ms.html
This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Jun 16 2009, 03:15 PM
Thinkingfox
post Jun 18 2009, 02:31 PM

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QUOTE(soundsyst64 @ Jun 18 2009, 12:28 PM)
Do you experience some sort of sense; for example;

Today, you dream about something.
About a week, you go some place that you never been and suddenly, you feel that you have visit that place, but can't recall when.

is it similar to time travel as well? hmm.gif
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I don't think that can be considered time travel because it happens in your subconscious. I think it's also known as Deja_Vu. I have experienced that before. In fact, I've heard of quite a number of people who have experienced it before. But I think topics like that come under metaphysics. biggrin.gif

 

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