Heheh... you're right.


Time is such an interesting topic, it brings out all the intellectuals. I thought my ideas were radical, till I read through the other posts, many of us have similar ideas, and good eye opener counter points.

I too believe that time does not exist. It is just a measurement of change.
As mention before by another poster, we are talking about time travel, and not travelling to another dimension. What this means is that, my alterations of the past, will change what events took place that affects the present. Not that we simply, shift off to a different dimension where things turn out differently.

If we do travel to another dimension, then this will be equivalent to travelling to another planet (another point in space), where things happen to have occurred similarly as our own, with a slight variance. Thus the grandfather paradox will no longer apply; killing myself in that dimension, will have no effect on me in my present, pass or future.

On the other hand, if we are referring to travelling to the same time line that has resulted in my existence and all I observe in the present, then the grandfather paradox too will not be logical either.

Because, what will happen when I kill my own self in the pass? Obviously I won’t be able to do so. Perhaps some may say that the whole fabric of time and space would crumble if I did so. In which case, why aren’t we observing it now?

Then there’s the idea that things will play out in a predestine fashion, so that I will naturally, never be able to kill myself, or cause incidents that were never done in the pass. The idea of predestine, means that, in effect time is still flowing in a linear fashion, which means that if I go to the future and observe myself. With that knowledge change my actions in the future, instead of saying “yes”, I say “no”. I’m sure that is possible, unless some unforeseen force controls my future body and I am just an observer.

In chaos theory, the very existence of us in the pass, or even a single molecule floating into the pass, could completely alter the future, unless we accept that everything is predestined. That is not true, our pass may be plastered and made linear, but our future may still branch out based on our actions.

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Added on September 14, 2010, 12:08 pmWith regards to Dejavu.

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Added on September 14, 2010, 12:45 pmThe idea that if we travel fast enough time will move backwards, I think this is not true.

This notion probably came from Einstein's idea that if we moved at the speed of light, time will appear to have stopped. The word here is appear, and time doesn't really stop. We can never reach the speed in which time stops. We will always only become closer to it. which means, instead of 1 second for you to reach point B. you will now reach it in 0.01 second.. or 0.00001 second to infinity. You will never reach beyond that point to achieve 0 seconds, therefore time will never really stop, and you can't go pass that until time moves in reverse.

In otherwords it will be 1km in a sec. 100km in a sec. 1 billion light years in a sec. to infinity. You can never formulate the speed required before time actually stops.

Appearing to stop here, is also not accurate. Just because one is moving fast, doesn't mean that things actually appear to move slowly. Unless, your thought process catches up to that speed, in which case, you don't have to actually, be moving.

This post has been edited by TheDoer: Sep 14 2010, 12:46 PM

Oh I must have missed it. I'm skeptical about it. Have to check it out later.

The clocks may be accurate, but what about the triggering?

I just looked up the wiki, and seems like time dilation has been proven, with a guy taking a plane round the world twice in both directions and the results show that time seems to be different from a stationary clock.

Need to give this more thought.

The layman examples given always explain "what" will happen, but when it comes to "how" it happens its all in math formulae, it's hard to imagine.

I've done more research, I think this explains the confusion between, what time stopping actually means:
Speed of light would not stop time..?


Perhaps time might be able to slow down, disproving my idea that time does not exist. But time travel (excluding going to the future with stasis) still appears to be impossible based on the explanation given earlier.

This post has been edited by TheDoer: Sep 15 2010, 11:52 AM

Hum yes. That is a bummer :/ but as they say, if a theory cannot be explained in simple terms to a kid, perhaps the theory is all wrong

The prob is, what this theory is saying is that, at our current speeds, the difference is so miniscule that we can't observe the differences naturally ourselves without an elaborated experiment.

Therefore it is hard for us, to imagine it, as it isn't apparent to us.

Hey this leads me to another Question regarding boosting our travelling speed, if I remember correctly the answer should be false. But I donno why, and I received different answers to this. What's your take?

Does Velocity stack?

There has been ideas of holograms, and water vapour 3D TVs. hum... 4D? that also applies to a movie. We're drifting off topic .

Yes.

I know that some might argue that the ball will quickly decelerate on leaving the car, due to friction, and no more propulsion from the car. But at the point of throwing, the idea is it should be faster than the car itself? take particles in the air out of the equation.

If this were the case, this means that we could pass the speed of light, if we could create a huge vehicle travelling faster than 50% the speed of light, and another vehicle within it also travelling faster than 50% the speed of light.

(Yes I know it would be a ridiculous sized vehicle )
(or... perhaps if it were in a loop?)

And we could also have multiple: vehicle in a vehicle, that way each vehicle doesn't need to travel that fast.


But I don't think it's that easy is it?

This post has been edited by TheDoer: Sep 16 2010, 12:20 PM

Serious... wow... I thought that would not be possible at all.

Well, we're just talking about theory now of course, as opposed to Never be able to travel faster than the speed of light.

It's not just the fuel, let's say we found more efficient fuel and a better propulsion system, we'd also need to make a gigantic ship, a few light minutes in size at least. (if we don't use a loop)

In the case of a loop, it would need to be big enough and able to withstand such speeds multiplied by billions of rotations.

Then a moving object within a moving object, that got me thinking too... I can imagine, that if we are running within a moving wheel, our inertia would increase, but a wheel within a wheel, not sure how that will play out. But should be the same.

No, we are talking about hypothetically speaking, not refering to how that would be possible.

As you can see in "Back to the future" movies, it assumes that if you change your history, you will be transported to an alternate future.

From my explanation, that would not be called "time travel", only "space travel".

Which infers that we can't change our pass. Unless it is predestined. But predestined is a silly concept because, that would mean that we will not be able to control our own actions.

Therefore I conclude that, time travelling to the pass is impossible.

I'm looking for proof like these for time dilation. Can you provide some references on this problem on satelites/GPS? Not refering to Astronaut's time in space, as their biology would be effected by more than just time.

This post has been edited by TheDoer: Sep 17 2010, 10:46 AM

Well, that will be like what I stated as in a different dimension, or different world, that would not be considered as a different time.

The reason I say that is because you can never change the pass. You are changing a different pass, and in doing so, only the time traveller can see the difference, when he goes to that alternate universe.

But in the case of terminator, what is shown is predesitny, and nobody was able to change the pass. no matter how the machines tried to kill Connor, they weren't able to, and no matter how Connor tried to stop the machine from taking over the world, he could not. It all plays out, that in the end, everything happens predestined, the only thing is he didn't know it was predestined, until it occured.

But assuming, you know exactly what happens, does that stop you from acting the opposite?

I don't think you got what I was trying to say.

I was going through all possible scenarios, and it is not possible to have that same meaning, of having a time machine and travelling to the pass. That is what I'm saying.

I'm not saying, that one is trapped, and can't do anything. I'm saying that the time travelling that you are describing, won't be considered time travelling. I am not going back to the same present/future that I left from, but a different one. If I kill my grandfather before conceiving my father, then I'd just move to a different timeline. Those people from the original timeline would see you walk in to your time machine and vanish... never coming back. Your history in that timeline is unaltered. That's what will happen in your scenario. isn't it?

This post has been edited by TheDoer: Sep 20 2010, 04:35 PM

@SpikeMarlene

I think you've misunderstood me. I am running through all the possible scenarios that people can throw that explains how time travel is possible if it's possible to cause yourself to cease to exist.

So in the scenario that some have given such as that awaken_angel has mentioned:

Let's call it Scenario A
Is that we move to an alternate time line. In which case, as I mention, that would not be the same as time travel. His example explains How killing your grandfather will not cause you to cease to exist.

Just to repeat:

Scenario B. Is that we are predestined, that we will go to the past and act in a predestined order, and would never be able to undo our existence. Such as in Terminator, whereby no matter how hard the machines tries to kill john connor, he survices to the present time of the machiens. Likewise, John connor would never be able to stop the machines from rising.

But this I think is illogical, because this scenario, works, if say we do not know what will happen exactly.... whereby alot of the story is unknown yet to the time travel. I give you an example, if we are able to remotely view the full story of our past or future, and were to alter even a small aspect of it. Is that impossible? That would mean that our future will be played like a puppet, simply because we know what will happen.

Scenario C as just introduce by ScrewBallX is that, we can kill cause our present self to cease to exist, no prob. We just take on a different form.

I will have to argue that, 1st of all, we do not know that we will still exist, just in a different body, that is only true if you believe in the buddhist school of thought. but most critically, if history was altered, then even the me, who went back to time would have changed. and the new me, might not want to change anything. so this will cause another infinite ripple of change.

Scenario D is that the whole fabric of space and time would collapse on itself, and existence will cease to exist, etc...etc... So it's possible, just devastating.

Well, if so, it would have already happen.

So the conclusion is, there are no likely scenario that shows what would happen if time travel was possible. This hints that perhaps time travel is not possible at all. Well apparently it might be, according to special relativity, but not in the way we expect, or want (that can alter the pass).

From this senario you can see the main source is split in to 3. Destroy either one could give out different result.
Like in scenario D, it could collapse and restore itself from the point it broke down.


Note: for scenario D when I say collapse on itself, it may not be exactly what you means. It's like what that mad inventor in back of the future said would happen if you meet yourself in the pass, the results will simply be devastating, and unimaginable. Let's leave it at that.

I agree that scenario D is not possible. So is scenario A, B and C.

Side track:
You've still not addressed, the issue, on how change in the pass, will not effect change in you, which might effect the change that you had made to the pass? (The infinite ripple issue)

Yep. I think exactly. Nice way of putting it.

hum... yep.. I guess it won't be time travel, I guess it's like how scientist are tracing the history of the universe from radiation let off from the pass.

We are definately just an observer.

Then this is the predestine idea.

Yep, I've touched on this, if we are predestined, does that mean that if we know what happens in our future, and our future actually comes, does that mean, that we cannot do anything that we already knew we'd do?

For example, we knew we'd reply "Yes" to an answer instead we want to reply "No" this round.

Will our bodies be out of our control for that moment and force us to say "yes" nonetheless?

Your welcome to share your thoughts.

ahaha... that one belongs to the "All About Religion"


Anyway, as I mention, try imagining, if you know the future, would you not be able to say "yes", when you said "no" in your premonition? Will there be some force which will suddenly possess you and force you to say it? Doesn't seem likely.