Joe-joe I am just curious. I wonder if you have applied those principles to Koran itself?

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Added on June 6, 2008, 12:19 pmThis force has a personality in abrahamic religion. It has desires, it has wishes, it has commandments, it has feelings, it has perception, it has a 'form' , it has a consciousness, it can 'interact' with its subjects.

If such a force has such and such personality, than it cannot be unbiased or neutral.

This post has been edited by soul2soul: Jun 6 2008, 12:19 PM

Let consider live example, Do builder of a house (not bias) determine the purpose it is built to? If later the house become drug processing centre, do we catch the builder
The personility is a subject of the beholder. As you were reading my emotionless writing ... we embedd the emotion to it.

This post has been edited by Pak Din: Jun 6 2008, 12:29 PM

i did, on a several fronts, not just scientific. First and foremost, is about humanity and humanism. My first law, if quran really is from god, then it should conform or really suitable for every human to follow. So i checked on things like music (which some say it's not permitted in Islam, and some not really sure about it). Every one of us know that music is a part of life. So I checked about it, spending some moments looking for the pros and against statement from some islamic scholars, and i came with a conclusion that music is permitted in islam, as long as it wasnt anything like devil worshipping kinda music. One may check what al-qardawi said about this (he referenced it to ibn haithm). So then things like pilharmonic orchestra, classicals and such, i hold it as allowed in islam.

then after that about surah attaubah verse 29 that many ppl in the west use it against muslim as justifying usage of violence against non-muslim. That translation is actually totally misleading as the verse was sent down during muhamad (pbuh) was undersiege in a war, and the verse state very clearly that after the muslims overcome the attacker, the act of war should immediately be stopped.

There are many instances that show this. One of the most striking example was in 1948, the second chief rabbi in jurusalem actually sent a letter to the united nation stating that jews over there opposed to an israeli state and that they were living together with muslims and christians in peace for generations.

and many more about quran and muhamad (pbuh) history confirmed the above.

then about science and all that. I was somewhat very incline towards mathematics from my early years. I once thought that this universe was constructed with mathematics as its language (but not anymore now). Of course i investigate that very early on. The major problem i had was i know nothing about arabic language. And malay translation of quran is way limited in its original context. Not until i read the translation in english and compare it against several other versions of the translation then i grasp some of the meanings.

About some numerical or other scientific evidence presented by some ppl, i would look into the inconsistencies with what we know now. For a book of signs to be valid from 1500 years ago up to the end of time, the language itself has to be easy for ppl across generations to understand and at the same time it has to be consistent with the "signs" that we have discovered or yet to be discovered. Granted that there are a lot more that we dont know, but with that all we already know especially from the past 200 years, the level of consistencies is very surprising to say the least.

Then also, about how the verse itself is constructed. The quran, apart from be a book of signs, also would address the reader directly as if the reader is actually reading a command. And the verse itself is constructed in such a way as to warn those who do bad deeds and right after that balance it out by comforting those who do good deeds. This is equally true to muslims and non muslims. In islam, the basic principle is quran and the sunnah of muhamad. If u see non practising muslim, u can ask him/her if he/she reads quran often. If u see an extremist muslim can can ask him/her how many of quran translations did he/she read, otherwise his/her thoughts wouldnt be so narrow minded.

Another thing, as i post several times before, islam doesnt allow one to just follow. One has to know why it's halal or haram or other opinions. Islam also want the muslims to reasons about his/her own belief, meaning that it's an absolutely no-no to "blind-faith" on islamic teachings. So the concepts of questioning the basic things like, what is God, what is His attributes, why God is God, and why did muhamad (pbuh) did something, what was the reason behind it, all that things, we as muslims have to know it. By knowing the real reason behind it, then we know to what extend humanism really is exists in islamic teachings. Only then we can apply it in our daily lives.

The best place to check on islam is to know it from those who have searched and studied all religions before accepting islam, coz then u'll know why he/she choose islam and whether his/her point of view is actually in parallel with you or anyone's thoughts and quest. If u see how born but not practising muslim behave, u wont get the real picture of what islam is and how it actually can change a person to a better person. If u've been to any arabic countries, u'll be surprised to see their behaviors

This post has been edited by joe_joe: Jun 6 2008, 01:02 PM

Quote
“Another thing, as i post several times before, islam doesnt allow one to just follow. One has to know why it’s halal or haram or other opinions. Islam also want the muslims to reasons about his/her own belief, meaning that it’s an absolutely no-no to “blind-faith” on islamic teachings. So the concepts of questioning the basic things like, what is God, what is His attributes, why God is God, and why did muhamad (pbuh) did something, what was the reason behind it, all that things, we as muslims have to know it. By knowing the real reason behind it, then we know to what extend humanism really is exists in islamic teachings. Only then we can apply it in our daily lives.”

1. Very correctly explained, and I do think most other approaches stress on using our brain to the maximum.

2. Life is dependable on time. Without time life is frozen, as in picture. A Video ia better representaion for understanding life. The only constant in life is change. Without time we dont change. It is suppose to be a change for the better, although better is very subjective.

This post has been edited by Pak Din: Jun 6 2008, 04:23 PM

What you are doing is applying human behaviour to explain this force that you are speaking of. Every human has a unique personality unlike any other, and this personality is unstable, being able to change over time depending on the situation. The force being discussed in this matter is not a human and you have to remember that.

actually, anyone can ask anything about islam here. There are a lot of misconceptions about islam. Simple thing like terrorism (which one can get answers to that by just a simple google), to things like why prophet muhamad (pbuh) married aisha when aisha was still at the very young age, or hand chopping, polygamy or any other things. That way some of us can help to clarify some of the misconceptions, and after that if one is interested, we can discuss what's the real islamic teachings are. Is it like islamic hadhari like umno says, or pas' version is more accurate, or is it supposed to be like shia? and how really islam is universal and humanist? I believe not many ppl actually thought islam has a very high value of humanism.

Actually, from a simple point of view, just take a look at how islam treats women. 1500 years ago in most part of the world, women were not allowed to have possessions. Women were also treated as objects rather than human being. Whereas, 1500 years ago, islam freed women from such a notion. And even for marriage, it can only proceed if the woman has agreed to the marriage. Can you find that in other culture 1500 years ago? A simple research can give anyone a lot of information on what islam really is.

This post has been edited by joe_joe: Jun 6 2008, 04:57 PM

Perharps he is confused with god's attributes. Anyone can comment more?

but anger is a human trait , is it not? Jealous is also a human trait right?
Be pleased is also a human trait.

So if you tell me that this force can be angry at human, that it can be pleased at certain things, that it can be jealous, then this force does have a personality.

if such force has personality, it cannot be neutral or impartial anymore. It will be pro-good, and anti-evil. If such thing is true, then , evil should not exist. But if evil does have to exist, then it would mean that there is another personality that is pro-evil and anti-good.

These Dark Force and the Force will antagonise each other , with neither of them winning the battle, because if Pro-good personality were to win, then we shouldn't see evil in the world today. Balance of the Force.

This post has been edited by soul2soul: Jun 6 2008, 05:00 PM

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Added on June 6, 2008, 5:01 pmare u guys actually talking about god's attributes?

This post has been edited by joe_joe: Jun 6 2008, 05:01 PM

that was 1500 years ago, when the rest of the universe was in darkness.

Forward to today, the rest of the universe has changed. You still don't realize this?

This post has been edited by soul2soul: Jun 6 2008, 05:05 PM

women seem to have a lower status in islam today than the ones living in more 'islamic' western countries today.

do you mean that in islam or in muslim country? If you refer to what happened in pakistan, that's not islamic teachings. That's their tribal culture. Probably I'm not clear of your question.

your newly edited reply;
realize in what sense? What's more important is the human rights values are protected. Some see that when women wear scarf it's treated as oppression, but when treated as sex object, as freedom..? I dont consider sex exploitation as freedom.

This post has been edited by joe_joe: Jun 6 2008, 05:11 PM

Allah has 99 names describing HIS traits. This is why you see why muslims have abduls in from of their names when they take one of the 99 names. Because abduls means: slave. So that someone you'd casually call aziz, actually has a full name of Abdul Aziz (slave of the strong). Another example Abdul Rahim (slave of the Merciful). In that way there is actually no one in the muslim world called the Strong, the Merficul, the Graceful, the Just. Always Abduls this, Abdul that. Even Abdullah is a short form of Abdul Allah (slave of God).

By this 99 traits. One of which describe God as Just. Hence He is just. And God has inform us that he only judges you by you piety (Taqwa).



If God has a prefference. It would be something you or anyone can attain, which is in believing that He is your creator, and you worship Him, alone.

This post has been edited by Abu.Umar: Jun 6 2008, 05:10 PM

This one I asked Seiji already. Who has the authority to speak on 'true islamic' teachings today? Pakistan says one thing, saudi says another, Iran says another, Turkey another, and you think you have the answers too.

So, who has the ultimate authority on islam in the world today?

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Added on June 6, 2008, 5:12 pmI knew this was coming. Do you want me to quote the conversation between MahaBrahma, Mara and the Buddha here too?

This post has been edited by soul2soul: Jun 6 2008, 05:12 PM

anything that deviates from quran and sunnah of muhamad is not islam. Doesnt matter if it's in pakistan, even saudi arabia.

so how do you know you are correct, and the others are wrong?

updated

2 persons can read the same sentence in Koran and can interpret it different way. (as shown by you too the 1 verse in koran you could imagine so many scientific theories from it).



This post has been edited by soul2soul: Jun 6 2008, 05:17 PM

if they say that they are muslims, then they have to back up their claims by showing proofs in quran or sunnah about their actions. For example, in pakistan actually, they say that in almost all cities in pakistan, there are a lot of fortune teller shops. It's forbidden in islam to even step inside these shops, and if someone to believe in fortune teller he/she has actually associated the God with another being.

so at the end, you emphasize on self-examination and evaluation too when presented with something claimed to be islamic, right?

this is why you are superior and more spiritually advanced.

We don't have an equivelent to the Vaticant for Christians. Don't have a pope either. The main teaching in muslim is the Quran & Hadis, you can find the same version in UK similar to the ones in Saudi. Quran never changed, habis can be verified with a lil efforts.

It just so happened Saudi Arabia is lucky since the 2 mosque is there, as well as the Kaabah.

Even if Kaabah got flatten by earth quake, Muslims will still pray facing general direction to the spot kaabah once were.

For all we know Muslim of Malaysia is vying to be the best examples of all muslim nation. Its a hope that Islam shall one day rise again from the east.

then we can refer back to the context of that quranic verses and hadith or sunnah of muhamad (pbuh). So the interpretations wont be an open ended license for them to literally interpret anything on their own.

do you know the reasons why I ask this question?