vote for sticky! good stuff.

EDIT: eh sticky already, blurnye me

This post has been edited by Jason: May 26 2005, 01:06 PM

1 "Do this one cheap (or free) and we'll make it up on the next one."
No reputable business person would first give away their work and time or merchandise on the hope of making it up later.

For new clients, usually first jobs will be FOC only regarding the creative and artwork. Productions cost will still be charged. This is to show them our interest in handling their work. Need some good PR skills in this. So far, all of my new clients are my main clients now

2 "We never pay a cent until we see the final product."
This is a croc, unless the person is leaving the door open to cheat you out of your pay.

For companies, this wouldnt be a problem. But for freelancers, this is a major headache.

3 "Do this for us and you'll get great exposure! The jobs will just pour in!"

YES. it does help to promote you and your company very well. If your project does well with your client, definitely you'll be noticed by others especially when your client is big company with a lot of franchise brands. You win one brand and the others will follow-up. I'm from a In-house design company and still we manage to secure some works that are supposedly done by some other International Advertising companies.

4 On looking at sketches or concepts: Until you have a deal, LEAVE NOTHING CREATIVE at the clients office.

5 "Well, the job isn't CANCELLED, just delayed. Keep the account open and we'll continue in a month or two."
Ummm, probably not. If something is hot, then not, it could be dead. It would be a mistake to *not* bill for work performed at this point and then let the chips fall where they may! Call in two months and someone else may be in that job. And guess what? They don't know you at all.....

No 4 and 5 is closely related. This is where your Professionalism is needed the most. Try to create an impression of superiority when dealing with clients like these although we know that clients are always right. When they sense that u are too soft or the type that says YES to everything, game over. Sometimes we have to make our clients listen to us. Another major problem for freelancers.

6 "Contract? We don't need no stinking contact!

Never sign contracts. They are going to suck out every last drop of life out of u. U dont need any contracts if you are good and well known. Clients will swarm around u asking for your expertise. Nevermind the glamour of being hooked with some particular fancy big company. What matters is what u deliver.

7 "Send me a bill after the work goes to press."

Same as clause 4 and 5

8 "The last guy did it for XXX dollars."

This is a way where clients will push u to reduce your quotation or billings. Maybe it's just a phsycological attack on you to make u feel inferior as they have others to do the work for them. In my case, this usually happens in the production part. They will start to compare your price with other suppliers. What I usually do is to answer them like this "Nevermind, u can ask other suppliers to handle the production but I will not guarantee the quality of the finishing at the end". Trust me, they will be back crawling asking u to help them again.

9 "Our budget is XXX dollars, firm."

Never trust them with their silly budgets. Always at the end their budgets will go high above from their planned ones. Why? Bcause they are so fickled minded and can never make up their minds on what they are going to do. U have to becareful in this matter as sometimes as a designer u have to absorb some of the xtra costs. Be good in planning your projects financially and learn to say NO to your clients.

10 "We are having financial problems. Give us the work, we'll make some money and we'll pay you. Simple."

One of the things that u have to consider bfore meeting your client is to do some research about them. YES, it definitely will help u interacting with them in the future but it is also necessary to find out about them financially.



These are the realities when u step into the real advertising world.



Remember this phrase - clients are always right bcause they are the ones that
usually screw u up no matter who is wrong or right. Becareful when dealing with clients with attitude problems



Learn from experiences. Thats never once in a designers life that is full of successful projects. There will be definitely some that will encounter problems.

Students at art colleges tend to get over confident with their college projects. Their projects compared to the real lifes ones are totally different.



Terrific artist? I'll prefer terrifying artist. 25% is not enough to stay alive in this line. Dont say pro, your are not even qualified to be an artist!

These is all what i've experienced in my 11 years in hell with advertising, thousands of sleepless nights, migraine, gastric (the word breakfast, lunch and dinner dont exist within me), the office is my second home, completion of a project is just like finishing SPM, knowing u gonna get screwed up by your client later.

Are all these replies relevant to the in-house world or the freelance world? Please don't say it's the same because it is really another world unless in-house you're the do-it-all person.

I speak from a freelancers POV and honestly think your addition to this topic might start confusing or even frighten designers here. It's good and bad in its own way. I just don't feel that teaching designers to be as cruel as the clients will get the country anywhere in progression.

I think all we need right now is to teach both designers and clients the equality of discussing on the same level.

i've been working as a freelancer bfore - its not confusing or frightening, but thats what they are going to face in reality

BTW between in-house, a great advertising firm or freelancing has one common thing - management. you'll be safe from all the hazards above if you can handle your works properly -with or without help



You have to do that if u wanna live in the advertising world. Stand out to be the best

This post has been edited by providence: Jun 4 2005, 12:12 PM

What I meant as cruel was in reference of how you want designers to react against clients. Example, if the client wants you to lower down your prices, you don't have to lower it at an absurd rate and if the client still doesn't wanna work with you, a designer shouldn't go, "you should be listening to me..so if you don't wanna listen then fine..go seek someone else."

My principles of negotiation is to discuss things on a similar level. Not to try establishing a somewhat holier than thou type of war. We have to understand that we are partially to blame for the distorted web market in Malaysia now. Due to the fact of some small companies/freelancers charging ridiculously low prices, they have caused pain to others.

Anyway, I'm having a discussion of this soon-to-be long topic on my blog. Don't want to lengthen this pin thread that said what it had to already in the first post.

Cheers.

This post has been edited by etsuko: Jun 4 2005, 02:11 PM

Sorry for all the fuss created by me in this thread.

Etsuko- thanks for your tolerance

I just wanna give the designers wannabes out there some points of survival

No worries. We both were after the best for everyone here so they manage to survive in the world later.

Cheers.

I use the "Take it or leave it" theory, well sound no problem to me. For every designersis something you should treat it as common threat. In business there always risk. If you don't take risk you won't get any $$$$

This post has been edited by SupermotoXL: Jul 3 2005, 03:24 PM

great advise, but i think this works in everyday life, but not always, life is unfair

and if u take too much risk you gonna loose $$$$




thats why some idiot came up with this stupid phrase
No matter what - clients are always right

haha, cari makan saja, cool it man! lol
if ur a boss, u'll do the same thing

can use 4 guide, just becareful when u r a freelancer to get some job, coz now many client cant trust 1! so hard to get payment.....

ekks.. wat a fantastic article.. i lately did a proj so so called multinational company.. they offered me excuses 1,2 and 3. Top 3.. anyway i manage to extract 85% of the payment.. So stingy Guys..

ahem..wells.
i hv some question here..
I am a Fresh student still studying in Web,Multimedia Design In Diploma ..but no Art..But getting to graduate soon..

i am just affraid..wat job Career am i suppost to do..after i graduate..
If it Doing FreeLunch good?or just straight away enter a company for work??
if enter..wat are a company should i enter and..wat kind job of Responbility..should i do with?

i heards that..u can get very good previlege and good money when doing free lunch job..and u can hold a few project in a month..rather sit at the company..getting 1.few hundred K..salary.
is it that..so easily as u think?hmm..
i dont hv any working exp on tis field..yet..

please someone expert out there..please guide me..


This post has been edited by kokanchai: Dec 11 2005, 01:15 PM

Total Truth of these....personally also have encounter some stupid businessman that come out with project.... is hard to get good customer....
Is a work and you need to pay for it.... you can't compare our job with other people jobs...
To be honest...if the client value your intellectual property then he will pay the amount you should get...but in malaysia most SME bosses is like jerk even some big company trying to extract everything out of new n innocent people...how could this happen.... they should respect the work....is a property...intellectual....

First of all FreeLuch = Freelance
If you need some advice about freelancing in web design - u can refer to ETSUKO
He is one of the forumer here that is doing that.

The things u need to have to earn hundreds of K with freelancing is work experience, good PR skills and confidence. And it will take quite some time for u to reach that level unless u hit a jackpot with a big company.

Please take note that by doing freelancing, you are not registered as a company. Without any official invoices, DO or PO the chances of getting conned is high

As much as clients cause a pain in the backside to many designers. Designers should definitely self educate themself upon alot of factors whether its regarding marketing themself, quotation prices or etc. Alot of student graduates do not know whats going on in the market. Hence there is so many problems with under charge designers or 'pseudo' designers out there. They are ruining the market and alot of them are ignorant and naive. People should start an awareness campaign or a workshop in colleges or universities to solve this problem

Yup, there's the one point mostly all the colleges doesnt include in their design course.
Exposure to the real world of advertising/design. Mostly fresh graduates will feel almighty when they graduate with good results or recommendations from their lecturers but when they enroll into a new company, the environment will be totally different and they will start to feel inferior.

Colleges should add a subject - preferable a practical for all the final year students where they have to work for a few months in a recommended advertising agency or Inhouse design company. This will be a good preparation for them when they start they new jobs in the future.

Cheers

1 out of 10 i'm not agree.. Y? being a pasionate artist/designer.. first .. we doesn't think bout money, money came in 2nd place... let it be if other people can charge 50% lower than u... wat u wan is satisfaction and originality on your design.. and ur touch right? everybody can design.. even the layman... but the talent here we talk about... if u doing for money ... u 'll not be a true artist or designer... and u won't go far... eg: if da vinci or le corb do it for money... i think we'll not heard their existing.

For a beginner, YES. You have to work mainly aiming to get your client's acknowledgement WOW MY ENGRISH! and usually client definitely will go for the lower offered price when come to this matter. For a true designer, work comes first then profit but without sufficient funds or capital, you are not going to survive. Always think that whether your work(s) are equally paid according to its quality or not. If you can do a great masterpiece and still charge it for a low price, your clients will be happy but to us designers, with that kind of price - it makes your work look rather un-quality.

PS : if you go to any local arts exhibition by our local artist especially paintings, check their prices and you will see wether they do it for money or not