Importance of Creative value is much what I lacked from the previous posts, I apologize for that. Maybe this should be a complaint on how designers in MYS are overworked and underpaid (since they were the references I used. )
I can get the values of how much large multimillion corporations like Fuji Xerox spend on an identity, but somewhere below that is a big pool of grey. To parse it as another way, most clients would expect something professional at a price higher than a copy of the -professional- software used to make it. (Unless the client's an idiot)

But just as an interesting point, if it is a business, why does pricing look like a small issue? Competition? Most people here seem scarily confident of their abilities...

(Just in case anyone's not getting what I'm relating to, you should know that websites used to pay companies for placing ads. )

ahh.. that makes more sense since you're refering to the underpaid and overworked issue. well, some believe they need to start somewhere. get a foot in the industry first and make some 'friends'. but if you're a son of a Datuk or someone who's got loads of contacts then all you need to do is sell and market. I on the other hand took the brave door and ventured even without waiting for 5 years experience in the industry. shhh...I didn't say that. lol

urm, i don't think all clients believe that at a higher price they get more quality nowadays especially if you're pitching for a website project. most clients (SMBs) in Malaysia who want a website don't budget well enough for it. they undervalue website design just like brochure design when they approach the specialized company.

however, I don't blame them since we don't have quality control for these things and as we've actually talked bout it before; some people just are able to sell. there isn't really a method to stopping this..maybe in future.

the only way clients now learn (which I hope they do) of the difference is through their own experiences and stories they hear from their friends who've hired other people to do their website.

I like to look at it this issue this way - McD and your friendly neighbourhood Ramly burger guy (lets call him AbgBurger).

AbgBurger uses better burger patties than McD

AbgBurger puts in onion, salad, sos cili, sos tomato, mayonais

AbgBurger cooks each and every burger personally - one at a time.

But then how come you're still want to pay much much more for lesser quality burgers from McD when you can get yummier products from AbgBurger? And I think some AbgBurgers earn less per month than workers @ McD eventho they're in control of the $.

Quoting Etsuko, I think it's an issue of :

"
1. Clients demand quality and results - you can eat faster @ McD, got nice place to sit, counter&drivethru is superfast eventho you're ordering for 15 people (have u tried ordering for 15 people @ AbgBurger? ), & they have variety like McFlurry, sodas, fries, chicken, porridge....

2. Clients trust a brand than a price- it's so much cooler to sit there and have your burger. And it's McD so their burgers are always consistent - no surprises waiting for you.

3. Clients listen to their friends - how many times you go to McD because your friends wanna go there also?

"

Good topic, guys

Maybe I should name my business Mackers.. LOL!

anyway, just think of it as prices are justified for various reasons.

i comment alot about on other companies quotations if my client tells them to me and I'll ask if they offer what we offer.

and here's the thing, clients will say "yes, they offer that too." but whether they understand the difference is a different thing not to mention some clients just say that for you to lower the price. LOL!

by any chance can the Moderator please merge this thread into the Web Design is Business thread somewhere behind there.. LOL

Hi,
can i know the market price for doing a website in details? when to charge 2k plus, 5k and when to charge 10k plus?
Thanks!

My dear karen..

There is no standard charges for website design and development.

As your company grows, you need to quote higher. As your workload increases, you need to quote higher.

Market price is done via research from my experience. What I can tell you through observation in this forum is..

Design Students > RM25-100 per page

Design/Programming Graduates > RM50-200 per page

Hobby-ist > RM25-50 per page

Professionals (Small-Medium Business) > RM50-250+ per page

Professionals (Medium-Large Business) > RM250-RM500+ per page

The price is affected by a lot of things from traveling to email/calls to design/development and etc. So in order for you to find your price, you need to be honest and do the math of your business.

Just know this, once you start low you'll never get higher without some work.

To simplify an answer to your question..

2k plus - you're alone or have 1 partner..

5k plus - you have a company, you have 2-3 additional members and you service clients, you do marketing..

10k plus - you're a large company, you have 10 employees or more, you do marketing, you target large corporations or multi-national accounts..

but remember, pricing yourself requires honesty and maths.. not to mention the understanding of the culture and the business in Malaysia because they're all cheapskates and many need to be educated about the value good website design and development would bring to their business..

Cheers.

This post has been edited by etsuko: Jan 25 2007, 11:01 PM

IMO you still could charge any amount you want regardless of how many staff you have. (very few people asks how many staff you have.......)

to me, the pricing really depends on amount of work (size of the project). not the size of the company.

of course, you must understand what's your output vs someone else' output. for example, if someone's going to do a better job than you or can provide better then it's obvious that it's not wise to price it same, so in this situation you can lower your price.

at least it's fair to the customer too, what they pay is what they get.

i personally do not charge people on per-page basis. i charge based on the # of work i estimate would require to get the project done.




though i disagree about the pricing based on # of staff part, i whole heartedly agree with the above.

This post has been edited by goldfries: Jan 26 2007, 09:32 AM

The way I see it, a lot of your charges will be on a willing seller-willing buyer basis. But what makes you stand out amongst your competition is the value you add to your service.

Let's say a Mr Client gives Webguy a brief. "I want a website. Put my picture there with a welcome message, my contact info, my company profile and my 50 products and specs in there." And for this job, Webguy charges RM 2,000 for his 20 hours of work. The deal is done and both parties are happy.

But assume Webguy is a true professional. It takes him 20 hours to do up the site. But he takes 5 hours to go through Mr Client's competitor's websites and writes up a report for him - explaining why and how he can maximise the usefulness of his site. He recommends a form to mine data and spends an additional 2 hours doing it. Then he takes an extra 2 hours to make the site comply with webstandards and explain to the client how it will benefit him in the future. Webguy also collaborates with a good graphic designer who takes 4 hours to come out with a design that is both functional and beautiful - and explains to Mr Client how important that is to his Brand Image. Then Webguy goes on to recommend other features that will benefit Mr Client and give Mr Client's customers a satisfactory experience on the website - perhaps a testimonial page, and a help forum, and maybe even a blog by Mr Client to interact with his customers.

All in all, Webguy had taken 40 hours to do the job that would have taken other designers 20 hours. But with the additional 20 hours, Webguy had increase the usefulness of MrClient's website by 300%.

And instead of RM 2,000, Webguy can now charge RM 10,000 for his work which includes his time and also his valuable ideas. Webguy tells MrClient, "For 2K, I can make you a website but for 10K, I can make you a website that will be a valuable marketing tool for your company."

Don't just offer designs, offer solutions!

i like this phrase. that's my business concept too.

And by that explanation and phrase is how you can actually charge clients 10k and above.

but still.. think of your target market because different market segments have different spending power on their website.

and as mentioned one of the culture here is shared with Singaporeans; Kiasu mentality. they want everything for almost nothing in order to get back more than everything.

p/s: if your client doesn't see physical proof of your work process and the results, they won't trust whatever you say no matter how well you say it. LOL!

Well, hi there. To be a website designer (programmer), what extra languages you might recommend for?

I currently try to study PHP, luckily everything works well, also had set up my own PHP server last night, all left now is go find a perfect PHP book around.

Programming is fun (some people feel it boring, though), but I also do graphics works around. But kinda still need to learn more from you guy tai-ko around

I also try (TRY) to run a web design service in the future but sure I encounter many problems, such as how to promote, how to manage the money flow (about payment stuff)...... You guy ever think to build a web template selling service just like templatemonster.com ? Well I target that as my goal...

Currently just fooling around, try to learn more in PHP.

I also agree this.
I pricing also that way but if you starting ur business try make more portfolio 1st, the price is no important.
After you got some client and portfolio then try increase little the price.
This my 2 cents...

I agree on some level, i don't know much about website designing but usually i'll ask the designer whether they have a portfolio so roughly i know how are their works. Honestly, i cannot afford to pay professional website company to make websites for me, i only look for freelancer, and so far, ALL freelancers i met DO NOT have a personal website, nor portfolio set up, it's abit frustrating

so FREELANCERS are you LISTENING?!

Spend a meager RM100 annually for a domain (your name is best) and a hosting account and get your portfolio up. It doesn't have to be stupendous but a simple design and layout would suffice. After all, they are after your portfolio and not you.

cheers.

Hi Jensen,

might be interested to learn what can you do. maybe can do something together...i need something fresh and interactive, where can configure the BB and Blog together.

Most important is I'm intending to add certain codings/upload and troubleshoot until it runs well...The software I intend to configure into my website is:

a Security software that can protect any ebooks/software from being "pass" around illegally.

Example :
=======
A bought an ebook from my site and this software suppose to generate a code for A to "unlock" the software before he/she can download my ebook/software.

In case of any refund, I can "deactivate" the code given...so next time he/she wants to use it, cannot open and render the software "not usable" and have to purchase again to "unlock the product ".

You think can be done ? You will understand what i'm saying if you visit this site. It's almost similar with what i'm having.
www.clicklocker.com

Anyway, best part is : I will provide the codes / software...etc for upload.

Your job is to upload, implement, troubleshoot and to ensure the program runs smoothly. PLUS a bit of web design ....

If you can do, please let me know OR if you know anyone that can assist, please let me know too...

Thanks
Vincent

Till today I still can't believe that there are so many freelancers or soon-to-grad desigers who don't own their personal portfolio. A portfolio is one of the most crucial elements in a web designer bible. I have even seen a designer who goes for a job interview with just his transcript and without a portfolio. Well, not sure about the other industries but I think in the designing world, a portfolio is more crucial then your degree cert. Well, oh yeah everybody that goes for an interview definitely have a degree or diploma cert in certain fields, but what makes you special from is the rest is your portfolio.

What can you do? How you do it is? These are important questions that people will be ask you. Web designing is all about arts and creativity. Show the world what you can do for them before thinking what the world can do for you.

that's what i mean, i believe no matter which field you're in, a portfolio sure will come in handy. Plus you only need a page to feature works you have done, i don't know what is so difficult about it. Sadly i think the awareness of that in malaysian community is so low. Without having seeing your work, how do we put trust in what you are going to develop for us? Really sometimes have to think on behalf of consumer

This is not an attack, just a constructive criticism.

yeah, agree to certain extend, portfolio is important BUT mainly to BIG companies..etc...but for a small or SME, I think reasonable price with an acceptable design shud be alrite..depends on whether you find a fussy client or a much more accomodating client.

May I know that web design still hv bright future? Coz I gt think abt it to study in Web Design major but would u think it is gd to me to study now but i really like it so much(not coz of the salary) even i know some said web design no need to study from college also can learn by yrself. Would ppl hv confidence on your work? B4 i just study until Certificate in Graphic Design. What is the requirement to be a web designer?

Future - its up to you because you make your future.

I believe education comes from an extent. It's not like you were a baby and suddenly noticed; hey, these are what my two joints below my waist are for..*walks*

Customers get confidence in you from:
1. Your impression & personality
2. Your knowledge
3. Your portfolio
4. Your ideas
5. Your added value

That's the whole process of finding a customer, nailing the project, doing it and maintaining it.

The requirements in Malaysia are never clear because many companies still do not take a Web Designer as a profession but a job that is just to design. In other words, a graphic designer.

My requirements when hiring a web designer are:
1. Your impression
2. Your portfolio
3. Your knowledge (xHTML & CSS is a must - additional Javascript and PHP are advantages)
4. Your goal and principles

In the US, the requirements are different and I've noticed different companies have different requirements of their designer and their developer. So that's to say, there isn't really a standard but the minimum I know is you must have the understanding of web standards and xHTML/CSS.

Web designing is not a lucrative career (well, not yet.) but I always feel you live a happier life doing what you love.