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 When you have to choose between ..., ... further studies and a good job

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TSseanwc101
post Aug 14 2011, 01:31 AM, updated 9y ago

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Hello guys,

As you can read from the title, I've a dilemma choosing to further study PhD or to work.

I'm 27 years old this year and already completed my Master's degree (research mode) from IPTA and currently waiting for graduation. For your information, I'm the type that like to study and have no problem to conduct academic research. I want to further PhD but I've heard that it's important to work to get working experiences. Some will say that PhD is useless when you do not have any working experiences. I also get some comments from my friends (who already working after they got Bachelor degree) that PhD won't help me to earn more without working experience. I will also treated as freshy just like other Bachelor degree student when entering job market.

Well, most people have the concept that when they have a PhD, they must able to earn more. This is different from my view that the reasons I want to get a PhD are:

1. To get a sense of accomplishment
2. To achieve my dreams
3. To gain more knowledge in my field
4. Love to study and do research

And to be honest, to earn more money is the last thing in my mind when I think of PhD.

So guys, what's your opinion on this matter? What is your say on this issue?

Appreciate it if you guys can spend sometime to reply.

This post has been edited by seanwc101: Aug 14 2011, 01:33 AM
Salvage
post Aug 14 2011, 01:45 AM

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Hello there,

I myself is going to venture into PHD soon, coming this october 1st. However, I am just 23 years old, and I guess this make my choice much easier than in your case.

Non the less, according to what you listed out as the reason why you decided to obtain your PHD, I think, you ought to do it.
It also seems that , you don't have much concern other than working experience.

Well, I guess that's not a problem at all. While studying for PHD, you'll get allowance. It might not be that much but it is enough for now. When you start to work as a PHD, your salary will be much higer.

Industrial researcher will be pain abt 8 k, and lecturer is about 6 k. And those are only for starter....
TSseanwc101
post Aug 14 2011, 01:55 AM

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QUOTE(Salvage @ Aug 14 2011, 01:45 AM)
Hello there,

I myself is going to venture into PHD soon, coming this october 1st. However, I am just 23 years old, and I guess this make my choice much easier than in your case.

Non the less, according to what you listed out as the reason why you decided to obtain your PHD, I think, you ought to do it.
It also seems that , you don't have much concern other than working experience.

Well, I guess that's not a problem at all. While studying for PHD, you'll get allowance. It might not be that much but it is enough for now. When you start to work as a PHD, your salary will be much higer.

Industrial researcher will be pain abt 8 k, and lecturer is about 6 k. And those are only for starter....
*
Thanks for the input. First of all, congrats to be accepted for phd candidate. Do you skip Masters degree and straight taking phd?

I don't have much problem with financial because I'm quite confidence that I can get a sponsor or scholarship if I further PhD. y only concern now is about the valuable working experience that I will missed out if I continue phd. If I do phd, I will do full time and concentrate 100% on it. This is because some phd students that I know who doing part time took a long time to complete due to work commitment.

For the salary, I don't really bother how much I get paid when I have phd.
Salvage
post Aug 14 2011, 02:07 AM

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QUOTE(seanwc101 @ Aug 14 2011, 01:55 AM)
Thanks for the input. First of all, congrats to be accepted for phd candidate. Do you skip Masters degree and straight taking phd?

I don't have much problem with financial because I'm quite confidence that I can get a sponsor or scholarship if I further PhD. y only concern now is about the valuable working experience that I will missed out if I continue phd. If I do phd, I will do full time and concentrate 100% on it. This is because some phd students that I know who doing part time took a long time to complete due to work commitment.

For the salary, I don't really bother how much I get paid when I have phd.
*
Yes, I am doing fast track programme.
Which Uni u from?
I am doing it in USM

If salary not your cocern, well, my friend, you are 200% set and ready for PHD!

U got like 50 or 60 years a head after PHD? The years of PHD that u can use to build working experience is not that big effect ..
TSseanwc101
post Aug 14 2011, 02:13 AM

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QUOTE(Salvage @ Aug 14 2011, 02:07 AM)
Yes, I am doing fast track programme.
Which Uni u from?
I am doing it in USM

If salary not your cocern, well, my friend, you are 200% set and ready for PHD!

U got like 50 or 60 years a head after PHD? The years of PHD that u can use to build working experience is not that big effect ..
*
I'm not from famous ipta, it's unimas in sarawak. I'm not sure which uni to apply for phd, if I decided not to go back to unimas.

My friend said USM is not bad. USM is one of the research uni in malaysia if I'm not mistaken.

The point is, I'm already 27. PhD need at least 3 years or more to complete. By that time I alraedy 30+ and haven't got any work experience. I'm quite worry about this thing. sweat.gif
Geminist
post Aug 14 2011, 02:25 AM

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What is it that you want to do after you get your PhD?

If you're looking at academic/research work, then it would help you. If you're looking to get into the corporate world, unless if what you're studying is really technical/specialised, the PhD may not be of much use.

I've seen people take part time research degree whilst working. Tough, but it's doable.


Salvage
post Aug 14 2011, 02:31 AM

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QUOTE(Geminist @ Aug 14 2011, 02:25 AM)
What is it that you want to do after you get your PhD? 

If you're looking at academic/research work, then it would help you.  If you're looking to get into the corporate world, unless if what you're studying is really technical/specialised, the PhD may not be of much use. 

I've seen people take part time research degree whilst working.  Tough, but it's doable.
*
Very much agree with you...


TSseanwc101
post Aug 14 2011, 02:37 AM

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QUOTE(Geminist @ Aug 14 2011, 02:25 AM)
What is it that you want to do after you get your PhD? 

If you're looking at academic/research work, then it would help you.  If you're looking to get into the corporate world, unless if what you're studying is really technical/specialised, the PhD may not be of much use. 

I've seen people take part time research degree whilst working.  Tough, but it's doable.
*
I'm not the type that like teaching but I'm mostly interested in research. I'm in HRM field. So I doubt this field need phd in corporate world, unless become an academician.

I'm did consider about doing part time study though. But I'm lean toward doing full time.

Sigh...very difficult to make a decision... sweat.gif

Thanks for your comment.
krizalid88
post Aug 14 2011, 07:33 AM

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if you take PHD just to involve with academics related job then go for it but if you wanna find job from industry seems quite hard to get job bcoz not all company will hire worker with a high level education qualification. most of them only seek a bachelor degree holder only unless companies that conducting RnD.
tester
post Aug 14 2011, 11:10 AM

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I have posted this before, and I think I should post it again.

I'm not sure what do you mean by "work experience". Most people think of PhD as nothing more than doing academic research, I disagree, it is so much more than that. PhD in itself is an "experience", a "lifestyle". It is far more difficult and challenging than your ordinary job (and much lower pay), but the "experience" and "life lessons" that you get out of it will serve you for lifetime.

It is important to recognise the PhD programme as a training process, a hard-core training programme that goes on for 4-5 years.

What you will get out from PhD (just a few things that come to my mind):
- the capacity to think and conceive original/novel ideas
- highly developed analytical skills & capable of organising and integrating data from many different sources
- problem-solving skills
- capacity to synthesise arguments logically (while acknowledging differing viewpoints)
- ability to design complex studies/projects
- ability to conduct literature search and apply the (theoretical) knowledge for practical purposes
- presentation/communication skills (both verbal & written - how to convince other people of your ideas)
- teaching/demonstration skills (how to explain/convey complicated ideas to laypeople)
- efficient time management and productive workstyle (often handling multiple projects at the same time, and thus organisation skill is very important)
- ability to cope with extreme physical and mental stress, all the while maintaining a productive state
- being used to hard work and unusual working hours (staying past midnights and work during weekends are not uncommon)
- and most importantly (I think), getting used to uncertainty and failures

and all these are in addition to the knowledge and foundation of your own project/specialised niche.

These are transferable skills that apply not only in your specialised field but to a broad range of tasks in your work and lifestyle. While I don't mean you can't attain these skills elsewhere, these are the skills that you will be forced to learn in order to survive. It is definitely not an easy path to tread, and it spans at least 3 years. You will have to think carefully about this. I know some very intelligent people dropped out, because they can't cope with the extreme stress, failures and uncertainty.

Depends on what sort of "experience" do you mean, yes, after PhD you most probably will start out together with other fresh graduates holding a degree, but do you really think that you will be less capable that those inexperienced fresh grads, after years of intensive training? Often (and depending on your line of work), postdocs advance much quicker, not because of their titles, but because of the output they are capable of generating. An analogy I like to use is to think of a seasoned athlete and a casual jogger, both begin at the same point, but who can endure longer? (Obviously I don't mean all PhDs, there will always be bad postdocs everywhere).

Age is an issue, of course, because the pressure that will be put on you and the much lower stipend will be difficult for people with more burdens. That's why many people who planned to do a PhD after a few years of work first don't end up doing it, because of the much lower pay (easily half the salary you will already be earning) and also their increasing responsibilities (eg. getting married, mortgage etc.) It may sound like a good idea to get a few years of "working experience" first, but many people for these practical reasons can't really go back anymore.

Something to think about.


tehtmc
post Aug 14 2011, 01:01 PM

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Unlike in developed countries (and that includes Singapore), PhD in graduates in Malaysia mostly work in the academia, doing teaching and research. Unless your area of expertise is of high commercial value, there isn't much scope for PhD holders in the commerical/private sector. The focus on research has not reach a stage where PhD graduates are in good demand yet. That's a reality you'd have to face - like it or not, chances are, you'll end up doing teaching and research in the acadamic field.

This post has been edited by tehtmc: Aug 14 2011, 01:02 PM
strategist
post Aug 14 2011, 01:11 PM

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QUOTE(tehtmc @ Aug 14 2011, 01:01 PM)
Unlike in developed countries (and that includes Singapore), PhD in graduates in Malaysia mostly work in the academia, doing teaching and research. Unless your area of expertise is of high commercial value, there isn't much scope for PhD holders in the commerical/private sector.  The focus on research has not reach a stage where PhD graduates are in good demand yet.  That's a reality you'd have to face - like it or not, chances are, you'll end up doing teaching and research in the acadamic field.
*
Um that means Singapore has more job opportunities for PhD holders or the other way round? Sorry I am a bit confused by the statement. blush.gif
tehtmc
post Aug 14 2011, 01:21 PM

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QUOTE(strategist @ Aug 14 2011, 01:11 PM)
Um that means Singapore has more job opportunities for PhD holders or the other way round? Sorry I am a bit confused by the statement.  blush.gif
*
Of course there is more scope in Singapore for reseachers/PhD holders.
TSseanwc101
post Aug 14 2011, 02:35 PM

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QUOTE(krizalid88 @ Aug 14 2011, 07:33 AM)
if you take PHD just to involve with academics related job then go for it but if you wanna find job from industry seems quite hard to get job bcoz not all company will hire worker with a high level education qualification. most of them only seek a bachelor degree holder only unless companies that conducting RnD.
*
I agree with your statement. From my observation, most of local companies tend to hire a bachelor degree holders rather than graduates with higher qualifications. From my opinion, they are not going to waste their financial resources to hire master/phd graduates when they know that the job can be performed by bachelor degree graduates. In other words, master/phd graduates are overqualified.


Added on August 14, 2011, 2:54 pm
QUOTE(tester @ Aug 14 2011, 11:10 AM)
I have posted this before, and I think I should post it again.

I'm not sure what do you mean by "work experience". Most people think of PhD as nothing more than doing academic research, I disagree, it is so much more than that. PhD in itself is an "experience", a "lifestyle". It is far more difficult and challenging than your ordinary job (and much lower pay), but the "experience" and "life lessons" that you get out of it will serve you for lifetime.

It is important to recognise the PhD programme as a training process, a hard-core training programme that goes on for 4-5 years.

What you will get out from PhD (just a few things that come to my mind):
- the capacity to think and conceive original/novel ideas
- highly developed analytical skills & capable of organising and integrating data from many different sources
- problem-solving skills
- capacity to synthesise arguments logically (while acknowledging differing viewpoints)
- ability to design complex studies/projects
- ability to conduct literature search and apply the (theoretical) knowledge for practical purposes
- presentation/communication skills (both verbal & written - how to convince other people of your ideas)
- teaching/demonstration skills (how to explain/convey complicated ideas to laypeople)
- efficient time management and productive workstyle (often handling multiple projects at the same time, and thus organisation skill is very important)
- ability to cope with extreme physical and mental stress, all the while maintaining a productive state
- being used to hard work and unusual working hours (staying past midnights and work during weekends are not uncommon)
- and most importantly (I think), getting used to uncertainty and failures

and all these are in addition to the knowledge and foundation of your own project/specialised niche.

These are transferable skills that apply not only in your specialised field but to a broad range of tasks in your work and lifestyle. While I don't mean you can't attain these skills elsewhere, these are the skills that you will be forced to learn in order to survive. It is definitely not an easy path to tread, and it spans at least 3 years. You will have to think carefully about this. I know some very intelligent people dropped out, because they can't cope with the extreme stress, failures and uncertainty.

Depends on what sort of "experience" do you mean, yes, after PhD you most probably will start out together with other fresh graduates holding a degree, but do you really think that you will be less capable that those inexperienced fresh grads, after years of intensive training? Often (and depending on your line of work), postdocs advance much quicker, not because of their titles, but because of the output they are capable of generating. An analogy I like to use is to think of a seasoned athlete and a casual jogger, both begin at the same point, but who can endure longer? (Obviously I don't mean all PhDs, there will always be bad postdocs everywhere).

Age is an issue, of course, because the pressure that will be put on you and the much lower stipend will be difficult for people with more burdens. That's why many people who planned to do a PhD after a few years of work first don't end up doing it, because of the much lower pay (easily half the salary you will already be earning) and also their increasing responsibilities (eg. getting married, mortgage etc.) It may sound like a good idea to get a few years of "working experience" first, but many people for these practical reasons can't really go back anymore.

Something to think about.
*
I refer work experience as the knowledge, skills, etc that I can gain when I enter the job market. I haven't gone through phd, that is why I always thought it is just merely conducting research and writing thesis just like masters by research. Maybe I'm wrong.

From my experience during my masters by research, I realised that intelligence alone is not enough. It must comes with the strong motivation and strong will to succeed. If I'm going to take PhD, I'm sure I'm prepared for it. Basically I will repeat the same process again in conducting the research just like masters by research. It just that I've to do it in phd standard where it is more rigorous.

I don't think I will be less capable than the fresh graduates, but it will be on par with them. The HR manager will still considered phd holders without experience as fresh grads and the hr manager might only hire based on the performance during the interview.

Yeah my parents said the same thing that once I work, it will be tough to go back study again years later. I always compared myself to other friends that started working right after they got their bachelor degree. They already loan new car, new house and earn money to get married in near future...while I still considered as a student. Seems like I can't catch up. In other words, I kind of jealous...lol


Added on August 14, 2011, 2:59 pm
QUOTE(tehtmc @ Aug 14 2011, 01:01 PM)
Unlike in developed countries (and that includes Singapore), PhD in graduates in Malaysia mostly work in the academia, doing teaching and research. Unless your area of expertise is of high commercial value, there isn't much scope for PhD holders in the commerical/private sector.  The focus on research has not reach a stage where PhD graduates are in good demand yet.  That's a reality you'd have to face - like it or not, chances are, you'll end up doing teaching and research in the acadamic field.
*
That's make sense. My uncle's sons went to Singapore once they completed their PhD, citing that there have more job opportunies for phd holders.

Actually, I don't mind to be in academia as I like involve in research projects.

This post has been edited by seanwc101: Aug 14 2011, 02:59 PM
tehtmc
post Aug 14 2011, 05:15 PM

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QUOTE
Actually, I don't mind to be in academia as I like involve in research projects.




There is hardly any research if you were to join the IPTS's. It's teaching mainly, understandably so as they are business-oritentated.

With the IPTA, you'll have to accept that a certain group of people gets all the priority and you have to put up with the race-based policies. Again, you have to do both teaching & research. It's not up to you to choose to do only research.

This country doesn't provide incentives for people to pursue studies to PhD level unless you are in the privileged group.

This post has been edited by tehtmc: Aug 14 2011, 05:24 PM
TSseanwc101
post Aug 14 2011, 06:31 PM

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QUOTE(tehtmc @ Aug 14 2011, 05:15 PM)
There is hardly any research if you were to join the IPTS's. It's teaching mainly, understandably so as they are business-oritentated.

With the IPTA, you'll have to accept that a certain group of people gets all the priority and you have to put up with the race-based policies. Again, you have to do both teaching & research. It's not up to you to choose to do only research.

This country doesn't provide incentives for people to pursue studies to PhD level unless you are in the privileged group.
*
I also understand about the race issue and I'm not in the privilege group. So my chances to get in IPTA is low. For IPTS, the teaching hours are at least 20 hours per week and yes you're right, they focus on teaching and they prefer to hire lecturers with teaching/industrial experiences. Lecturer in IPTA need to lecture, do research as well as involve in admin work.

What kind of incentives you're referring about?. For IPTA, I can get scholarship (not student loan) or sponsorship that cover the semester fee, exam fees and monthly allowances. Like my master's degree, the fees are fully covered by the uni.
tehtmc
post Aug 14 2011, 10:06 PM

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QUOTE(seanwc101 @ Aug 14 2011, 06:31 PM)
What kind of incentives you're referring about?. For IPTA, I can get scholarship (not student loan) or sponsorship that cover the semester fee, exam fees and monthly allowances. Like my master's degree, the fees are fully covered by the uni.
*
The incentives of being adequately rewarded for having obtained a PhD. You'd more likely get a better income with 3 years of work experience rather than with a doctorate degree which takes the same time to complete. Job openings would also be much more limited.
TSseanwc101
post Aug 14 2011, 11:15 PM

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QUOTE(tehtmc @ Aug 14 2011, 10:06 PM)
The incentives of being adequately rewarded for having obtained a PhD. You'd more likely get a better income with 3 years of work experience rather than with a doctorate degree which takes the same time to complete. Job openings would also be much more limited.
*
Hmm, from my opinion I'm quite doubtful can get a better income with 3 years of work experience. Most companies won't simply raise salary every year, unless it's govt sector.
Huey_nee
post Aug 14 2011, 11:35 PM

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I am 27 too, and am currently in the first year of fast track PhD program in IPTA.
Although I have one year++ industrial experience before I further for my degree, 3.5x CGPA, searching for a job is not easy, especially when applying for the 'gender-bias' position.
In Malaysia, the route after PhD is only academic and some (very very few) companies which specifically asking for phd holders. Anyway, since all IPTAs are 'competing' to be APEX (research uni), it won't be hard to find a lecturer job after your phd, or so I heard...
honn
post Aug 14 2011, 11:58 PM

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i m doing MAster ...but unfortunately ...i start lost interest in my project ...my Gf feel no future ...bcos i dunhave $....sad ....But my family wish me to get the phD"Dr".....haiz

This post has been edited by honn: Aug 14 2011, 11:58 PM

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